The Kreia/Kae Question

[Grant Dempsey]

Well, I was never taken in by her rantings, not even on my first play-through...I learned all about manipulation during K1, so I was very well prepared for Kreia's clever little manipulations

 

Oh, and the Exile did sense her manipulations, and her true meaning was revealed during the venture through Ludo Kresh's Tomb in the Shyrack Caves

 

The Exile even had the option to say Kreia is manipulating him/her all along

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That dialogue option for the Exile in the Hidden Tomb wasn't necessarily a sign that the Exile knew for a fact exactly what Kreia was planning, exactly what Kreia was manipulating him to do, and so on. It was just a suspiscion based on her general attitude toward him and whatnot, things that normal people could notice and pick up on, not a sign that he read her mind. If they were able to sense and read feelings, emotions, and thoughts through their bond -- so much so that the Exile would have even known exactly who Kreia was referring to when she said "the betrayer" -- then what would have stopped him from knowing everything about her early on?

[AlaricQelDroma]

Well, I was never taken in by her rantings, not even on my first play-through...I learned all about manipulation during K1, so I was very well prepared for Kreia's clever little manipulations

 

Oh, and the Exile did sense her manipulations, and her true meaning was revealed during the venture through Ludo Kresh's Tomb in the Shyrack Caves

 

The Exile even had the option to say Kreia is manipulating him/her all along

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That dialogue option for the Exile in the Hidden Tomb wasn't necessarily a sign that the Exile knew for a fact exactly what Kreia was planning, exactly what Kreia was manipulating him to do, and so on. It was just a suspiscion based on her general attitude toward him and whatnot, things that normal people could notice and pick up on, not a sign that he read her mind. If they were able to sense and read feelings, emotions, and thoughts through their bond -- so much so that the Exile would have even known exactly who Kreia was referring to when she said "the betrayer" -- then what would have stopped him from knowing everything about her early on?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I am saying that he didn't know about her early-on, it was the implied "read between the lines" stuff that was so blatantly obvious even on my first play-through...

[Grant Dempsey]

I am saying that he didn't know about her early-on, it was the implied "read between the lines" stuff that was so blatantly obvious even on my first play-through...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But then what did that have to do with what we were discussing?

[AlaricQelDroma]

I am saying that he didn't know about her early-on, it was the implied "read between the lines" stuff that was so blatantly obvious even on my first play-through...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But then what did that have to do with what we were discussing?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Nothing...Just talking for the sake of talking...I do that a lot when I'm not hacking people apart in K2 or hacking XWA for my mod

[Iseo Tiakan]

Ok, I'm done with digging into the dialog.tlk file because the following two quotes placed side by side have me fully convinced that, at one point, Kreia was intended to be Master Kae (Handmaiden's mother):

 

"As a Padawan, Revan was trained by Master Kae, before she was exiled.  Strange, I do not recall who Revan's master was after that.  And it is said that he went to his first - and final - master to learn how to leave the order entirely, as she had."  -- Disciple

 

"He came to me, yes.  Both before and after, before Revan knew himself.  And after, in the times when Revan was coming into his own and learning he was more than he had been told.  At one time, Revan was my Padawan.  In times past, long ago.  But Revan, when he had learned all he could, had other masters... that fool Zhar, and other Jedi on other planets. He learned from each. But in the end, he turned back to me. When he realized there was nothing more to be learned from the Jedi - except how one could leave them forever."  -- Kreia

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, I'm sold.

 

 

However, one thing that does make me almost wish it was true... is the horror that's going to sweep through all handmaiden's fanboys when they realize what the love of their life is going to look like few years down the road... 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That's something only the dark-siders have to worry about.

[Grifman]

I'm trying to be a bit scientific about this - that is to say that a theory can be valid until proven wrong. 

 

Sorry, that's not scientific. I theorize that there are invisible pink fairies all around us who vaporize upon death and leave no evidence. Is that a valid theory until proven wrong?

[phiont]

I'm trying to be a bit scientific about this - that is to say that a theory can be valid until proven wrong. 

Sorry, that's not scientific. I theorize that there are invisible pink fairies all around us who vaporize upon death and leave no evidence. Is that a valid theory until proven wrong?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry, but your example is not a theory - at least according to my dictionary:

 

the

[The Great Phantom]

"Know that there was once a Darth Traya... There must always be a Betrayer. One that has been betrayed in their heart, and one that betrays..." - Kreia to Atris

 

Kreia was, at one time, Darth Traya. Then, she was cast out of the Sith, and became another nobody, until she found the Exile and formulated all of her plans. She went to Atris, and Atris assumed Kreia's old role as the Betrayer. But, we all know that most of what Kreia told Atris was a lie. Kreia told Atris she would wait on M5 for her, but it was the Exile she was actually waiting for. She said that if she died on M5, then the Exile would also die.

 

That is not plausible, as the Exile felt thousands of deaths, and only created a paradox in the Force. If Kreia were to die, it would be the final echo in her plot, but I doubt the Exile would be severly affected...

 

"One who has been betrayed in their heart..."

I still think that Revan's fall affected her more than she chose to let others believe. She is known for telling ONLY what she wants people to hear, and furthermore she wanted to manipulate the Exile...

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Sorry, that's not scientific.  I theorize that there are invisible pink fairies all around us who vaporize upon death and leave no evidence.  Is that a valid theory until proven wrong?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Lay off the weed :cool:

[AlaricQelDroma]

"Know that there was once a Darth Traya... There must always be a Betrayer. One that has been betrayed in their heart, and one that betrays..." - Kreia to Atris

 

Kreia was, at one time, Darth Traya. Then, she was cast out of the Sith, and became another nobody, until she found the Exile and formulated all of her plans. She went to Atris, and Atris assumed Kreia's old role as the Betrayer. But, we all know that most of what Kreia told Atris was a lie. Kreia told Atris she would wait on M5 for her, but it was the Exile she was actually waiting for. She said that if she died on M5, then the Exile would also die.

 

That is not plausible, as the Exile felt thousands of deaths, and only created a paradox in the Force. If Kreia were to die, it would be the final echo in her plot, but I doubt the Exile would be severly affected...

 

"One who has been betrayed in their heart..."

I still think that Revan's fall affected her more than she chose to let others believe. She is known for telling ONLY what she wants people to hear, and furthermore she wanted to manipulate the Exile...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes, exactly...The Exile would not have been affected at all by Traya/Kreia's death, in fact, it would have FREED him/her, to be LS *OR* DS.

 

Remember how Mara was after Palpidious was killed? Well, that MAY be the worst that could happen to the Exile, assuming anything would happen to the Exile at all.

[The Great Phantom]

Are you one of the Followers of Kreia that believe the Force is all controlling, Alaric? If so, then you should realize that that is IMPOSSIBLE, because the Future is NEVER set in stone, until choices are made. Then, it becomes Destiny, but it's pointless because, by the time it is assured, it is in the Past...

 

Sorry, been a while since I read bout Mara... What happened after Palpy died?

 

I think all that would have happened to the Exile was that he would be free from her influence in his mind. Hey, I like that slogan... "The Force doesn't control people. Kreia controls people."

[Jedi Master D Murda]

When was it that Kreia said this, by the way? I thought I'd heard all of her dialogue, but I don't recall her ever mentioning why she was exiled, or even whether or not she was exiled in the first place (as opposed to just having left the Jedi Order)...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Kreia tells the Exile, "...Atris and the others blamed me, sentenced me. They believed me responsible for Revan's fall." And, at the bottom of one of the load screens you can read, "Jedi who have turned from the Order are either imprisoned or sent into exile." I suppose there's little doubt that Kreia turned from the Order, so just add two and two.

 

Its easy enough to answer the question about weither Kreia is Handmaiden's mother. Just look at the Handmaidens face and compare it to Kreia.  I havent personaly compared thier faces because Im playing female charactor so I cant exactly make them stand next to eachother. So it can prove that theory right or wronge simple enough.

"I bare the face of my mother" - Handmaiden ^_^

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

1. There's likely a huge age difference between Kreia and Handmaiden making it difficult to compare.

2. Kreia's face is mostly covered making it difficult to compare.

3. Handmaiden only says she honours her mothers face to explain why she looks different from the sisters. She never actually saw her mother.

4. Disciple indicates that Kreia's face has changed much when he tells her, "I know you - not even the markings of the dark side can hide it."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I was thinking the same thing as well. Kreia's face was not mostly covered especially when Nihilus and Sion are beating her down. Disciple never indicates anything about her face but he was talking about her presence. The darkside doesn't cover just her face but her entire being. And remember the other handmaiden sisters saw Kreia when they mention it to Atris but none say "Hey old lady you look familiar" or anything like that. Ha! Take that! :cool:

[The Great Phantom]

I don't believe the other Maidens ever met Arren. She died at war, and Yusanis returned without her...

 

Besides, Kreia can cloak herself from others. People only see what she wants them to see...

[Jedi Master D Murda]

I don't believe the other Maidens ever met Arren. She died at war, and Yusanis returned without her...

 

Besides, Kreia can cloak herself from others. People only see what she wants them to see...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

They never had to meet her, Brianna bears the face of her mother. Plus Kriea did not cloak herself from the other handmaidens because they mention her to Atris but Atris says "Old woman? I do not remember seeing her."

[The Great Phantom]

Brianna bares the face of her mother... Why do people take things so literally?

 

I bare the eyes of my dad, and the hair of my mother... See, it's a combo! Some features are from both. Look at the differences between the 2 faces (Random Maiden's and Brianna's), and you MAY be able to pick out a FEW differences. But, the other Maidens also have a mother of their own, so VERY FEW features would be the same in the first place. They use the term 'face of her mother' to signify the reason why she looks different, and to focus on her betrayal (their Father's). According to Echani tradition, betrayal runs in the veins, so to speak.

 

About the Kreia cloaking: I was referring to if they ever DID see her when they were younger, they may have had it torn from them.

[Jedi Master D Murda]

Brianna bares the face of her mother... Why do people take things so literally?

 

I bare the eyes of my dad, and the hair of my mother... See, it's a combo! Some features are from both. Look at the differences between the 2 faces (Random Maiden's and Brianna's), and you MAY be able to pick out a FEW differences. But, the other Maidens also have a mother of their own, so VERY FEW features would be the same in the first place. They use the term 'face of her mother' to signify the reason why she looks different, and to focus on her betrayal (their Father's). According to Echani tradition, betrayal runs in the veins, so to speak.

 

About the Kreia cloaking: I was referring to if they ever DID see her when they were younger, they may have had it torn from them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I take it literal because this is Star Wars, not real life. How can you have 5 children that all look exactly alike. Star Wars

 

And I don't think they had anything ripped from them because their minds are walls. Unless Kreia was lying again.

[OneWithStrange]

It should be noted that Kreia's appearance has been transmuted by the dark side since she was Kae.

 

Kae = LS, normal face

Kreia = DS, wicked\beaten-with-a-stick face

 

-Ben

[Jedi Master D Murda]

It should be noted that Kreia's appearance has been transmuted by the dark side since she was Kae.

 

Kae = LS, normal face

Kreia = DS, wicked\beaten-with-a-stick face

 

-Ben

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

But she isn't DS anymore, she is grey.

[AlaricQelDroma]

Are you one of the Followers of Kreia that believe the Force is all controlling, Alaric? If so, then you should realize that that is IMPOSSIBLE, because the Future is NEVER set in stone, until choices are made. Then, it becomes Destiny, but it's pointless because, by the time it is assured, it is in the Past...

 

Sorry, been a while since I read bout Mara... What happened after Palpy died?

 

I think all that would have happened to the Exile was that he would be free from her influence in his mind. Hey, I like that slogan... "The Force doesn't control people. Kreia controls people."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, that is what I was saying, somewhat..Kreia is in control of Kreia...Or Traya is in control of Kreia...Or....Oh, **** it all to hell already! :D

 

As for Mara Jade...I have all of the post-ROTJ SW books all the way up to Unifying Force...When Zahn wrote the Heir to the Empire Trilogy, Mara's history with Palpidious is explained very well...One of Zahn's masterworks, that trilogy was...Possibly the only reason why I love Zahn more than any other novelist...

 

Anyway, Mara lost her connection to Palpidious, and she almost had the heart ripped out of her for the first 8-12 months after he died, but she managed to recover and eventually joined Talon Karrde's smuggler nest a few years later...Which I would think would happen to the Exile, *IF* Kreia/Traya is correct about their spiritual link...

 

However, Kreia never tells the truth, so it's impossible to say if the bond between the Exile and herself is as impenetrable as she claims it is...

 

Anyway, the cut story obviously tells a much different story, mostly involving Atton and/or Brianna...One that has Kreia dying, LS or DS, and either the male runs off with a DS or LS Brianna, or the female runs off with LS or DS Atton....But it was pretty clear from that ending that the Exile didn't suffer like Mara Jade did when she was cut off from Palpidious.

 

Of course, Skywalker managed to force Mara to relive the past, and through that, and killing the Cloned Master C'Boath's clone of Luke, she came to grips with Palpidious's last order that she murder Skywalker, and she was freed from Palpidious after that.

 

However, for several years, Palpidious's last thought/order to Mara was ALWAYS in the forefront of her mind...It could be that Kreia left such a...Presence...Within the Exile's mind, possibly buried deep, waiting for the right words or sense through the Force to trigger what she hid within the Exile's mind as she died...

 

I'm betting that Kreia, since she knew she was dying, wanted to open just enough of a pathway into the Exile's mind to leave her presence within the Exile, in one form or another...Probably either leaving an order to restore the Jedi or to destroy them and the Force, depending on your alignment

[Grant Dempsey]

I don't know that Kreia was completely lying about her Force bond with the Exile.

 

Remember what Master Zez-Kai Ell said about Force bonds, after all. Alleviating such a bond would require that one of the "bondees" have their feelings or perceptions actually change in some drastic sense, which, he said, would be almost as hard as turning away from the Force.

 

In some of the cut content, there was also dialogue wherein Master Vash stated that Force bonds could be severed if one of the "bondees" fell to an opposing alignment from the other "bondee" (she cited her bond with a former Padawan of hers and how it disappeared once the Padawan fell to the Dark Side of the Force as an example).

 

It could have simply been that the Exile's perceptions of Kreia had changed when she "revealed" herself as Darth Traya and when the Exile confronted her at the Trayus Core on Malachor V. There was also a theory going around that Kreia herself had forced the bond between she and the Exile into existence, and simply severed it herself once the Exile arrived on Malachor V.

[AlaricQelDroma]

I don't know that Kreia was completely lying about her Force bond with the Exile.

 

Remember what Master Zez-Kai Ell said about Force bonds, after all. Alleviating such a bond would require that one of the "bondees" have their feelings or perceptions actually change in some drastic sense, which, he said, would be almost as hard as turning away from the Force.

 

In some of the cut content, there was also dialogue wherein Master Vash stated that Force bonds could be severed if one of the "bondees" fell to an opposing alignment from the other "bondee" (she cited her bond with a former Padawan of hers and how it disappeared once the Padawan fell to the Dark Side of the Force as an example).

 

It could have simply been that the Exile's perceptions of Kreia had changed when she "revealed" herself as Darth Traya and when the Exile confronted her at the Trayus Core on Malachor V. There was also a theory going around that Kreia herself had forced the bond between she and the Exile into existence, and simply severed it herself once the Exile arrived on Malachor V.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Thanks again for agreeing with me...One day...You shall become l33t enough to learn the hardest lessons...Just continue to memorize everything...Become better than a computer database...Pheel da Farce, Cold Hand Luuuuuke :D

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

But she isn't DS anymore, she is grey.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It's always been a bit odd that you can yo-yo between dark and light and not retain any sort of mark.

 

The power may have aged her and her "unaging" would be bizzare. The whole "old woman" thing really works for her anyway.

[AlaricQelDroma]

But she isn't DS anymore, she is grey.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It's always been a bit odd that you can yo-yo between dark and light and not retain any sort of mark.

 

The power may have aged her and her "unaging" would be bizzare. The whole "old woman" thing really works for her anyway.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

They didn't make the "Abused Force Master/Knight" faces because they were rushed...They had no options but to let us l33t modderz/hax04z take care of these sort-of problems by creating more PC heads

 

Ultimate Lightsaber Mod and PC Heads Mod...They are coming, and they will pwn everything else when they do...:D

[Grant Dempsey]

Thanks again for agreeing with me...One day...You shall become l33t enough to learn the hardest lessons...Just continue to memorize everything...Become better than a computer database...Pheel da Farce, Cold Hand Luuuuuke :D

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, I thought you were saying that Kreia tried to leave some presence behind in the Exile's mind through their bond to directly manipulate him and his choices after she died, which I don't agree with...

[AlaricQelDroma]

Thanks again for agreeing with me...One day...You shall become l33t enough to learn the hardest lessons...Just continue to memorize everything...Become better than a computer database...Pheel da Farce, Cold Hand Luuuuuke :D

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, I thought you were saying that Kreia tried to leave some presence behind in the Exile's mind through their bond to directly manipulate him and his choices after she died, which I don't agree with...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I'm just talking....What you read into it is your choice and your opinion