Ravager = Star Destroyer?

[Zilod]

Carth, it has been far too long since we last spoke. I see the recent months have not been kind in your case. I barely recognized you.But I recognized you, Saul. I see your face every night even as I promise myself I will kill you for what you did to my home world.Did you learn nothing in your time under me? As a soldier you should understand that casualties were unavoidable. This was an act of war.It was a cowardly act of betrayal! Your fleet bombed a civilian target into oblivion without warning or provocation. And the blood of those innocent people is on your hands!In war even the innocent must die. The Sith would not accept me until I proved I had truly turned my back on the Republic by bombing the planet.

 

As you can read, Saul had to proof he left the Republic by bombing Telos. Why give him a new ship if he has not yet proven himself?

He had taken the Leviathan from the Republic, destroyed Telos with it and defected to the Sith. Why would he change ships if the other Leviathan-class clones are the same?

*Waites for somebody to call this waste of space and twist my words*

i fill the space

It seem that he used his "old" leviathan to bombard Telos but this doesn't prevent him to grab a new and more powerfull ship when he was accepted by siths.

 

 

MapWhat happened? What's going on?Sith Interdictor ship. They must have been waiting for us on the hyperspace route. We're caught in their tractor beam.Do you recognize the ship? It's the Leviathan. Saul Karath's vessel. My old mentor.

 

Recognize is NOT by using ID things (to me), so it had te be the same ship (why would Carth recognize it otherwise?)

Because it fought against it for years?

Enemy forces generally know each other is not that you know a ship only if you where aboard it.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

At least it makes it clearer where the error occured. Since there is no mention of changing ships. It's likely that they drew one concept and used it for the cutscenes without reaslising that you couldnt have an alien ship before finding the star forge. As the CGI and the game is done at different times (and by different people).

[BattleCookiee]

Well, at least I tried and bring proof, something you haven't done yet (quote yourself if I'm wrong).

You 2 (Zilod and 213374U) only said "But this COULD happen" (quote yourself if I'm wrong).

So post some proof of "Leviathan's Exchange with SF ship"!

So now present your proof (Runs through Dialog.TLK ended. All results with "Leviathan" "Karath" "Saul" "Alien") are done and I really can't think of any other words about this Leviathan situation.

 

If you rather want to talk about if's, here are some more:

Is KOTOR2's Ebon Hawk the same as KOTOR1's?

 

Is the Ebon Hawk who flies of Malachor V the same as the crashing, or a Ebon Hawk type like died at Malachor?

 

How did Malak's chin fell off?

Is HK-47 coming out of the storage hold in the prologue or the HK-47 (hard to see due to flames)?

 

Is Revan alone fighting The Real Sith?

 

What's the entire history (from dude X to Exile) of the Ebon Hawk?

How did the Remote survives Goto's blast?

How did HK end up on Tatooine?

Are the Sith on the Star Forge original humans or SF produced clones?

Why are only two Leviathan-types defending the SF when 100+ where produced during the Arrival at Deck 2 cutscene?

Is T3 modified by Revan before heading to the Exile?

 

Is Kreia dead atlast?

 

 

How did Nihilus find the Ravanger and scavenge it?

 

How did Malak get the dead Jedi bodies out of Dantooines ruins to the SF (as they say the whole planet was wiped out)?

What would happen if Revan was killed by Malak?

 

When having the LS ending, is Malachor killed for good or do the 3 parts still have influence

 

And the last one (can easily think 2000+ more):

Do the people of the Promised land still live?

[Zilod]

Probably is a bit too much speculative and is more likelly that one of the 2 statements (Saul BG and ingame alien design) is wrong.

 

i really think that something was messed up here...

 

As there is not something that really clarify what happened all is about speculation... i have my reasons to think they are of alien design you have yours to think is a republic ship.

 

There are things that seem to make clear that that the ship is a republic one and other that point in the opposite direction.

 

 

 

How did Malak's chin fell off?

 

alredy posted here, but this is not about speculation in fact, as i posted, we have a proof that show us what really happened

[Aegis]

As there is not something that really clarify what happened all is about speculation... i have my reasons to think they are of alien design you have yours to think is a republic ship.

 

Be that as it may, the burden of proof lies on you. There are things in the game that hints at the Leviathan being a republic ship, the databank states it is so explicitly. The only hard proof you have is that it looks like another ship, and that can actually be explained (and that's all the is needed, I don't have to prove that explanation is correct, only present a valid alternative to your explanation). Unless you can prove beyond reasonable doubt that your theory is the only correct one, the correct answer is still the status quo, which in this case is that the Leviathan is a republic ship.

[BattleCookiee]

Some official site data:

 

The corruption of Republic forces has proven to be the most devastating weapon in the Sith arsenal, culminating in a betrayal that may turn the tide of a burgeoning war. Admiral Saul Karath, a pivotal figure in the victory over the Mandalorians only five years ago, stunned his peers when he declared the Republic not worthy of his support. He transferred his allegiance to the Sith Lord Revan, taking with him a large number of troops and the Indictor flagship he commanded, the Leviathan.

 

Karath was the first officer of significant rank to go over, and he set a dark precedent. Rather than face an enemy that knows their every tactic, several other officers have followed his path. Many that remain loyal to the Republic trained directly under the admiral. For them, the coming conflict has become far more personal in nature.

 

...

EDIT:

when ingame they speak of alien design

Strange I didn't find any convo about alien design when browsing through the Dialofg.TLK file searching "Alien", except you still mean that convo about some Republic ships and most of them of Alien design...

Edited March 10, 2005 by Battlewookiee

[Zilod]

ewww doesn't want to start again

 

Battlewookiee bring his proofs (the same you are mentioning) and we debated them, we bring our proofs (when ingame they speak of alien design, the fact that these ships seem to be "just" sith ships and so on...) and he debated ours...

 

if you read all the 3D probably you will see that.

[Aegis]

I don't have to. Just the fact that there *is* a debate supports the theory that it's a republic ship. If you follow scientific standards, that is.

[Zilod]

I don't have to. Just the fact that there *is* a debate supports the theory that it's a republic ship. If you follow scientific standards, that is.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

or the theory that is an alien ship

[Kissamies]

When the Sith came across the Star Forge, they gave it their most powerful ship class, the Ravager's class with some suggested improvements based on their experiences in war, to replicate. SF didn't produce a carbon copy of it, but a heavily "rakatanized" version. The Sith then abandoned their Republic ships for, if not more powerful, the more crew efficient ships.

...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Problem with that is we seen Rakata design in the form of Sith Fighters, also its complete nonsense since the Star Forge had no problems in duplicating any type of armor.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Armor? What armor? That seems to be quite a non-sequitur. Please elaborate.

[Aegis]

or the theory that is an alien ship

 

Actually no. As I said, the databank for example state that it is a republic ship. You can't possibly debate that (it would mean that you're saying that the databank *doesn't* say it's a republic ship, a statement that is easy to check). The game itself have some hints that indicate that it's a republic ship (dialogue, mostly) and some that indicate that it's a Star Forge ship (the design). Both are disputable in various ways, thus we fall back on the only indisputable source, which in this case is the databank which states that it is a republic ship. Hence, the burden of proof lies on whoever claims that it's a Star Forge ship, and unless that person manages to discredit any hints towards a republic ship and any alternative explanation to the "proof" that he or she presents that it is a Star Forge ship, then the only reliable source will remain the databank, which in turn means that we still assume that it is, in fact, a republic ship. It may not be the actual truth, but it is the accepted truth. You may disagree with it (as you have) and try to find other explanations (as you have), but until you've managed to do what I said above, it will remain the accepted truth, not a mere theory.

 

And that, is the scientific method. Feel free to look it up.

[BattleCookiee]

Armor? What armor? That seems to be quite a non-sequitur. Please elaborate.

 

I think he/she means Revan's Robes or the Star Forge Robes, who are no armor at all (as they are robes).

Though Revan's Robes were clearly COPIES of his original, as he was wearing the robe before finding the Star Forge (lots of movies, especially Dantooine Vision).

SF Robes might be copies too (no clue what original).

If this is the case it clearly implies that the SF can only copy (but as we don't know if SF robes are copies, whe can't implie that)

[Zilod]

ewww

 

the main source is the game itself the databank draw its info from it.

 

in the game by dialogues and seem by loading screen is "stated" that the curved ship is of alien design.

 

i can debate that maybe Saul changed his ship after he proven to be loyal to ship and the ship we see in KOTOR1 is not the same he used in mandalorian wars.

 

in same way you can debate that maybe the statement that "the sith fleet is mainly composed by alien design ship" is not referred to the curved ships, even if they seem to be the backbone of sith fleet.

 

as said if you read all the 3D this is more than debated.

[Drakron]

Armor? What armor? That seems to be quite a non-sequitur. Please elaborate.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

This is somewhat easy to miss.

 

In the Star Forge "Turret Level" if you go the other way instead of to the lift you end up in a room with 3 consoles.

 

In each you can make the Star Forge to create a item, its the only place you can get Darth Revan/Star Forge robes but the console also gives the option to create armor (nothing special about then) instead of robes.

 

That is why the Star Forge would not "rakatanized" anything, it simply produces what its ordered to do, if someone ordered to make Ravanger copies it would.

[Kissamies]

Ah, thought you might mean starship hull armor or something. Slow people like me can't always follow leaps like that. It does not necessarily follow that Star Forge can't try to improve something with other technology it has, but you do have a point.

[Aegis]

the main source is the game itself the databank draw its info from it.

 

Be that as it may (and it is possible that whoever wrote the article contacted BioWare), the databank is still a far more reliable source than you. Besides, your source is also the game, is it not?

 

in the game by dialogues and seem by loading screen is "stated" that the curved ship is of alien design.

 

Did it explicitly state that it was the hull design? If not, it could've referred to propulsion, weapons, shields or other equipment. Maybe the hull design was based on the Leviathan, the most advanced ship Revan had at the time. Perhaps it's just a freak accident that made the two designs indentical (albeit unlikely). Outside the game, someone said that it might've been to save animation time that they simply re-used the ship without thinking.

 

i can debate that maybe Saul changed his ship after he proven to be loyal to ship and the ship we see in KOTOR1 is not the same he used in mandalorian wars.

 

And I can say that he didn't.

 

in same way you can debate that maybe the statement that "the sith fleet is mainly composed by alien design ship" is not referred to the curved ships, even if they seem to be the backbone of sith fleet.

 

See the note about design.

 

As long as those counter-arguments remain valid, you haven't proven anything, merely stated a non-sanctioned alternative. So basically, that makes this a matter of your word against the database. As that is a more reliable (and I believe officially sanctioned) source, it is right by default.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Then the whole thing makes even less sense. You copy alien ship designs which are superior, then choose an inferior design for your flagship..

 

If the Star Forge can copy anything and the whole training aspect dosnt matter (if it did then there would be no early alien ships) then there is little point copying an inferior design.

[Zilod]

....i said to read the 3D....

 

it speak about ships of alien design

 

Battlewookiee quoted that from the game files

also 213374U was quite sure that there was another reference even in the loading screen.

[Aegis]

What exactly is the 3D, first of all?

 

Second, I can't see any quote by Battlewookie that goes beyond "alien design", which, as mentioned, doesn't necessarily refer to the hull.

[Zilod]

What exactly is the 3D, first of all?

Uops sorry for 3D i meant the thread

 

Second, I can't see any quote by Battlewookie that goes beyond "alien design", which, as mentioned, doesn't necessarily refer to the hull.

design it can probably referred even to the whole project, and whit the hull shape as the most evident thing...

 

if someone tells me about the design of a car for example the first thing i guess is the shape of the car and its line and then maybe by interiors... for example i don't think to the engine, suspensions and generally the mechanic of it, they are of competence of engineers more than designers

[Aegis]

if someone tells me about the design of a car for example the first thing i guess is the shape of the car and its line and then maybe by interiors... for example i don't think to the engine, suspensions and generally the mechanic of it, they are of competence of engineers more than designers

 

And that discredit those who does look at the engine etc.? I can guarantee that there are a lot of people who will go for the engine or whatever first. I'm not an engineer, nor a designer, but when I hear that they designed a new car, I don't jump to the conclusion that they slapped a new hull on something old. In fact, I'm more inclined to believe that they did in fact change the engine and interiors etc., and used an old (but perhaps slightly modified) hull.

 

In any case, you've missed the point entierly. You don't only have to prove that your theory is valid, you have to prove that it's the only valid theory, if you intend to make it the accepted one. If you can't prove that it's the only valid one, then you have to settle with "maybe not being wrong", which is far from the same thing as being right. I don't think you're quite clear on what we're arguing about. I'm not saying I'm right, I'm saying that you might be wrong. Quite frankly, I don't give a damn way one or the other about whether the Leviathan is republic or alien. I don't think it matters. I believe it is a republic ship, because that is the status quo whether you like it or not and anyone is yet to convince me that it's wrong.

 

Don't you understand what I'm talking about? Seriously, do I have to draw you a graph? Because from what I'm seeing, either you're simply refusing to listen, you don't understand the principle of the scientific method, or you think you're smart enough to ignore roughly 500 years (if not more) worth of scientists and philosophers.

[Zilod]

i'm not discarding anyone, was just sayng that the designer is not an engineer

 

about my point i think that finally you got it in your last post when you say...

 

In any case, you've missed the point entierly. You don't only have to prove that your theory is valid, you have to prove that it's the only valid theory, if you intend to make it the accepted one. If you can't prove that it's the only valid one, then you have to settle with "maybe not being wrong", which is far from the same thing as being right. I don't think you're quite clear on what we're arguing about. I'm not saying I'm right, I'm saying that you might be wrong

 

here my posts about that.

 

Probably is a bit too much speculative and is more likelly that one of the 2 statements (Saul BG and ingame alien design) is wrong.

 

i really think that something was messed up here...

 

As there is not something that really clarify what happened all is about speculation... i have my reasons to think they are of alien design you have yours to think is a republic ship.

 

There are things that seem to make clear that that the ship is a republic one and other that point in the opposite direction.

 

[Aegis]

But that's not at all what you're saying. You're saying that both theories are equal. They are not. One is right by default. The other is wrong until proven right (at which point that one will be right by default).

[Zilod]

both are stated ingame (who is the first source of information), this in my eyes makes them equal, i look to some info i think they are alien, you look to other things and and see them as republic.

 

i see the database as an encyclopedia that grab the informations from the game, is probable that the guy that compiled the infos had the same vision as your and considered some hints more important to others but doesn't make other hints false.

 

Is also likelly that the "specifics" of the leviathan changed during the game, maybe at the beginning it was supposed to be an alien ship then during the game they decided to introduce Saul and the Leviathan become republic, or maybe was the opposite they decided to give to the sith very alien design ships and so they draw them in that manner and made that dialogues...

 

Maybe they simply didn't noticed that there where these 2 things conflitting....

 

The only way to clearly see what the ship is will be with a dev that explain, after more than an year, the "final project" and all the points of varios theories, but frankly i don't think it will happen, nor i'm asking for it...

 

KOTOR was very good and things like that are just small "holes" that can happen and for sure not essential for the game itself.

[Aegis]

But the databank is an official source, and the only indisputable source that is left in this case. Therefore, it is right by default. It is because someone over there determined that it is so, and that person is of higher authority than anyone around here (unless Lucas is hiding out in this forum or something, or if you claim that you know more about Star Wars than the people who made the database). This is valid, because the subject is an imaginary story, therefore someone with the highest authority can decide which version of the story is correct, regardless of whatever else is said. In fact, if Lucas dropped in and said that it's actually not a ship at all, it's the Loch Ness monster, then that's what it is regardless of what is said in the game or anywhere else. It's stupid perhaps, and hard to believe, but that's still how it is. Nothing else matters, really.

 

You can of course deny this if you want, but not as long as you're using arguments to further your cause in the way you have. Arguments are ultimately intended for proving something, proving in turn is derived from science, which follows the principle I've described. Disregard that, and the statement "I like apples" is as relevant as anything you may find in the game (i.e. not at all).

 

As for my vision, I don't care. Up until I read this thread, I hadn't thought about the issue at all. I picked republic simply because that's what the scientific principle that managed to drag us out of the medieval age told me to do.