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Continuity kills KOTOR


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I would really prefer the KOTOR games to have no ongoing continuity at all, to be honest. By trying to link them all, you are very restricted in offering a wide variety of possible endings (or have to disqualify many of them afterwards).

Why not stage the games in intervals of a hundred years each?

The original developers were clever enough to set the first KOTOR way before the movies. There is enough place for lots and lots of stories, and if you let time pass, the start of each new game will be credible, even if its setting is completely different from any possible ending of the previous one. There could be a total victory for the Dark Side at the end of game X, but in the long run it wouldn't matter, since a hundred years later (after a few untold adventures), anything goes again. So game X+1 could start in a world where the Jedi are in control, despite game X's ending and without any loss of credibilty (!). The wheel keeps turning.

 

In this way, we would get a lot of interesting stories with a wide variety of possible paths to choose from, since the developers wouldn't have to worry about large-scale continuity problems anymore. Continuity is a chain that restricts freedom of choice in multi-layered stories. I would rather make meaningful choices that lead to many different (possibly catastrophic) endings in one game than have no real choices in many games.

 

And I don't necessarily need to see Carth, Bastilla or whoever again and again and again. In a good game, you could achieve a really satisfying closure with any character that meant something to you.

By aiming for endless cameos, you have to restrict character interaction and freedom of choice in order to guarantee the possibility of reappearance. So the characters you like become empty shells, "like butter scraped over too much bread", because you would rather have them "rise fom the dead" than give them one real 'lifetime'.

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I want Kotor III to resolve Revan's fate... I suppose the Exile could just die for all I really care right now.

 

After that, however, I would like there to be a game where you are a Sith Trooper or a Dark Jedi, but not in an RPG format, per se. I think that an Action/Adventure would work best for this, don't you??? (So as not to screw the storylines anymore)

Geekified Star Wars Geek

 

Heart of the Force, Arm of the Force

 

"Only a Sith deals in absolutes!"

-Obi-wan to Anakin (NOT advocating Grey-Jedidom)

 

"The Force doesn't control people, Kreia controls people."

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Bioware made a big mistake and Obsidian compounded it. Revan is not your character, it never really was. You only "borrowed" him/her while they had no memory. Once the character has a memory again they dont need you to play them anymore.

 

The mistake Obsidian made was to make Revan remote. By doing so people are still going through KOTOR II imagining that Revan is their character and is going to pop up in KOTOR III.

 

A Revan will likely pop up in KOTOR III but it wont be the one you played in KOTOR it will be changed.

 

If Revan is going to be a big part of the story someone will have to make a stand on where exactly the character is. You cant have a male/female ls/ds maybe and expect to write a good story.

It's hard enough when you just have a PC with those variables without introducing it with Revan and the Exile as well.

 

So a lot of people are going to be disapointed by KOTOR III no matter what.

I have to agree with Volourn.  Bioware is pretty much dead now.  Deals like this kills development studios.

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I think that a menu could be deployed in Kotor III. I already know how to do something like that, but on a more simple method.

 

There could be a Revan section, where you select Male/Female LS/DS, and the same for and Exile. Then you could select a face, or, if that's too extreme, they could be masked like Mandalore.

 

I know Revan is not my character. I just (like most people) formed strong emotional attachments to the whole concept of Revan. The beauty of it is that he's not mine. Neither is the Exile, for that matter.

 

In Kotor III I like the idea of a totally new character, with Exile/Revan as cameos or NPC's.

 

Just to get a little resolution in there.

Geekified Star Wars Geek

 

Heart of the Force, Arm of the Force

 

"Only a Sith deals in absolutes!"

-Obi-wan to Anakin (NOT advocating Grey-Jedidom)

 

"The Force doesn't control people, Kreia controls people."

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It's not just about having a menu that allows customisation of a character's appearance...it's all the voice acting and scripting required too. Anyone who said that Revan was female in TSL knows how many mistakes cropped up there...

 

I'd like to see resolution of the Revan/Exile characters, but I'm just not sure it will be feasible.

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I know Revan is not my character. I just (like most people) formed strong emotional attachments to the whole concept of Revan. The beauty of it is that he's not mine. Neither is the Exile, for that matter.

 

I think this is one of the bigger, abstract problems with the KOTOR games, continuity aside.

 

You are supposed to be *be* the character(s) you are playing in a CRPG. KOTOR (I & II) actually cheat this to a big degree as they are more action-adventure/combat RPG hybrids than true CRPGS where you literally create whatever backstory you want him/her to have BEFORE you start out on your quest.

 

I know a lot of people here don't like this example, but Morrowind does this the best in my opinion.

 

At the start of that game YOU... The player... Decides who and what your backstory is going to be more or less and the rest of the game just takes that as FACT and none of the actual story itself or the sidequests are effected unless you specifically choose a class/profession where your skills would be more effective (thief comes to mind).

 

The problem is that KOTOR is not just made for SW fans... But casual SW fans as well who NEED a constructed mythology for the character they are playing because it allows them to jump into the game faster. I think what people are saying is that this is working at cross-purposes here and I don't know if you can have a game like KOTOR (that isn't a "true" CRPG) that doesn't do this and still have it appeal to both non-hardcore SW fans, action-adventure fans and RPG fans as well.

 

I would prefer if KOTOR III built on the Revan/Malak/Jedi Civil War and its fallout because that is what we have to go off of since the first game is already out there...

 

But like is being said, that can be the backdrop and not necessarily the focus of the entire story and it still leaves a lot of creative freedom for the producers to make a self-contained SW/RPG adventure.

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I know a lot of people here don't like this example, but Morrowind does this the best in my opinion.

 

At the start of that game YOU... The player... Decides who and what your backstory is going to be more or less and the rest of the game just takes that as FACT and none of the actual story itself or the sidequests are effected unless you specifically choose a class/profession where your skills would be more effective (thief comes to mind).

 

Actually in Morrowind you are the chosen one, it's just a less specific thing than making you Revan the chosen one.

I have to agree with Volourn.  Bioware is pretty much dead now.  Deals like this kills development studios.

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Actually in Morrowind you are the chosen one, it's just a less specific thing than making you Revan the chosen one.

 

Wrong.

 

In morrowind the character we play could be the Nevarine but there were many failed nevarines over the years.

 

Also being the Nevarine does not invalidates the character entire background.

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Wrong.

 

In morrowind the character we play could be the Nevarine but there were many failed nevarines over the years.

 

Also being the Nevarine does not invalidates the character entire background.

 

It still gives you a premade destiny though. It may be less obvious but its the same principle.

 

The big difference with Morrowind is that you can lose the story for days as time so it dosnt have the same effect that it has in a more story based game.

I have to agree with Volourn.  Bioware is pretty much dead now.  Deals like this kills development studios.

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Perhaps they'll skip ahead a decade or so, and you're sent out to find what happened to them (the Orders have been rebuilt, so you can choose who to work for in the long run). Then, you find they're bodies, and those of their companions, and perhaps you're left to detonate some form of explosive that will finish their work.

 

Change around several things in there, and you could have a respectable and workable story. I especially like the idea of being able to choose who to work for: Jedi or Sith.

 

You could be a freshly-knighted Jedi, and you're journeying when the Sith contact you. You could accept the call of the Dark Side, or report it to the Jedi. Either way, you would end up with the same task... Yes I see definite possibilities... Of course, they can't use it now, because I said it out loud... :)

 

Play around with it, and we could have a very cool game coming.

Geekified Star Wars Geek

 

Heart of the Force, Arm of the Force

 

"Only a Sith deals in absolutes!"

-Obi-wan to Anakin (NOT advocating Grey-Jedidom)

 

"The Force doesn't control people, Kreia controls people."

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I wanted to start mine off as a Padawan on Coruscant.

 

With Mira as my Master (Mistress?)

 

You are to accompany your Mistress on a diplomatic mission. But on the way she stops off at an unknown planet/moon. The two of you get caught up in a conflict and Mira dies as result.

 

Which leaves you with her lightsaber and no teacher. Then you would continue on to complete the mission as best you could. Or just find a way to get off the planet.

 

At some point you would be exploring ruins and end up plunging into a lost archive detailing the history of the Mandalorian Wars and The Jedi Cival War. And a defunct astromech droid.

 

Then cobble together enough parts to get it up and running again and it goes tootling off deeper into the archives. Eventually it reaches a door and does it's thing, and as the door opens behind it is the Ebon Hawk ,battered and hardly spaceworthy.

 

You then find a Holo from Mira explaining what happened on M5. And what her REAL mission was.

 

Cue end of prologue and proper start of the game.

I have to agree with Volourn.  Bioware is pretty much dead now.  Deals like this kills development studios.

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If that were the case, then yes as a one off game it works. Still kinda shortsighted though.

 

BioWare never intended to make a series, I dont call it shortsighted because its not since it works that way.

 

If BioWare wanted to make a series they would make the game diferently.

 

KotOR sequels could make references of how Revan destroyed the Sith, OE are the ones that decided to walk down the path of "all ending are possible" that leads to complications.

 

What they did was making KotOR III story with "Revan goes to fight the real Sith" and make TSL a irrelevent part of the seres, you can go strait from KotOR to KotOR III and not miss a thing.

 

Open ended does not mean irrelevent.

 

I'd have had to have played the game half asleep to consider that a big twist.:)

 

It was meant that way, we could say the same with the Bhallspawn in BG series and a lot of people missed the hints.

 

Obsidian didnt help themselves at all with the ongoing mystery. Of course if they are not doing KOTOR III then someone else is going to have to clean up the mess from both games.

 

KotOR III would have to explain a lot, OE decided to needless complicate KotOR story and introduce errors.

 

The only way I can really see KOTOR working is if you have either Revan and the Exile as the boss sub boss. Or one of them kills the other (LS vs DS) and then you get to fight or join with the winner.

 

There are many ways that KotOR III could deal, it could ignore the obvious trap of "all endings are possible" and decided how the other games ended, they dont even need to use The Exile since TSL is irrelevent.

 

Best way to deal with KotOR III is ignore Revan and do their own work, one reasons that TSL fails is because its too depended on Revan.

 

Using former PCs as NPCs is always a huge problem even in PnP.

 

No, its not.

 

The problem is the "DM pet NPC" syndrome, player characters turned NPCs tend to be characters that the DM uses and tends to be "protective" of then and gives then a central role ... something we can understand since the DM used that character and its not playing the game as a player and so ends up using the ex-PC turned NPC as his player character.

 

What DMs avoid is taking control over another player character and turn it into a NPC since the player knows his character well and will resent "poor roleplaying" from the DM part of what was his character.

 

What OE did was poor roleplaying of Revan because there were too many possible Revans leading to the "all endings are possible" trap.

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It's still short sighted to trap yourself in that way.

 

You may want to make the rest of it make sense.

 

Yes I'm sure the big revelation was meant to be that obvious. :thumbsup: Even for Bioware the masters of the obvious that was a stretch. Especially since you cant get on with the game until the game catches up with you. It's not like there are not a million in game clues which point to it either, so it's not even like you are drawing on non character knowledge.

 

The characters will only react to your new identity after the leviathon.

 

Even if you ignore Revan people are not going to be happy. Hardly gives closure does it?

 

No the problem is that every player has already written their ideal story even if they dont realise it.

 

Though that it was a mistake to leave Revan as a nebulous entity. Especially in view of the number of people who didnt realise the purpose of Attons questions.

I have to agree with Volourn.  Bioware is pretty much dead now.  Deals like this kills development studios.

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I must've been blind, deaf and dumb because I certainly didn't see the twist coming in KotOR. It was really obvious in hindsight but at the time I didn't get it.

 

I do like playing a game that has you as an important character. The BG series was a perfect mix of allowing for customisation - you start off as a relative nobody, but you have a dark parentage and rise through the ranks to become the most powerful progeny. You feel special and yet you also feel completely in control of your character. I dislike RPGs such as the ID series where your characters really are nobodies, and everyone else seems much more important.

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That is why a menu or some such would work. The Mira idea is faulty, because of the fact that Mira did not necessarily become a Jedi, or a Dark Jedi.

 

The Newly Knighted idea works, because you don't have to worry about continuity. If Exile was LS, then Handmaiden would be a historian, Visas would probably be a Master, and Mira 'dies saving one she cares about.' Bao Dur would be a Guardian, and Atton would be searching for Force Sensitives.

For DS Exile, the Order would be in tatters, but one or more Jedi could have survived, and rebuilt. You would be one of the first knights in the rebuilt Order.

 

Basically your choices for Revan/Exile would affect who the leaders of the Order are, and what they say.

 

Just pointing it out.

Geekified Star Wars Geek

 

Heart of the Force, Arm of the Force

 

"Only a Sith deals in absolutes!"

-Obi-wan to Anakin (NOT advocating Grey-Jedidom)

 

"The Force doesn't control people, Kreia controls people."

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Regardless of whether you liked the original "Revan"-storyline or not (I, personally, thought it was OK, even though - as Shadow Paladin pointed out - highly predictable), it worked, and offered a satisfactory (if extremely limited) choice of sorts. You either conquer the galaxy as a Dark Jedi or you defeat the Sith.

 

The problem is that it is not possible to write closely linked sequels to open-ended stories. And if one quality is essential to KOTOR, it is the possibilty of choosing a path and finding an ending that you like. With that necessity established, the consequence is clear: You can't have a true sequel to any given KOTOR episode. If you were prepared drop the freedom of choice, it would be possible to continue (and by freedom of choice I do not mean the freedom of behaving like a pig without it having any true effect on the story). But then you should rather read Star Wars novels or wait for more movies, a television series or whatever.

 

The easiest way to provide another KOTOR (as opposed to 'Revan part 2') is to let one or two centuries pass. After such a long time, anything could have happened. Had Revan burned the galaxy, it will have rebuilt itself. Had he/she vanquished evil, it will have respawned.

 

Another alternative is to keep telling Revan's story, setting out from one of the possible endings of the previous game. But apart from the fact that this solution violates the spirit of the genre i.m.o., it would be very disatisfactory to all the players who liked their very own specific ending.

Apart from all that: Revan was definitely not interesting enough to build a multi-parted saga around him/her. True, people love to see their heroes return. But since, in the end, the true core of the main character is the player, he/she is bound to do that, anyway.

 

EDIT: Another possibilty would be to construct plots that don't involve acting on a galactic scale. You could easily present the adventures of a Jedi Knight / Sith Agent trying to deal with a situation on one specific planet or in one specific system without affecting the Force, the Galaxy and Everything. But something tells me that such a "boring" task would be considered beneath the target audience. :thumbsup:

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Probably i agree, the continuity can put strong restrictions and will be more difficult to develop a story keeping in mind all the things that have to be resolved.

It is also a bit sad to know that chars from kotor1 are dead (Juhani, jolee) probably eaten by Nihilus, or to see Carth or Bastilla that suffered so much have lost all that they fought for...

 

Is also sad to know that all the past battles where pointless as, like Kreia will probably say, the force strive for balance even when many lives where spent and forge a destiny for everyone....

 

 

the good is that, if the trilogy will be well built ir will be probably more enjoyable than 3 separate games...

 

IMO now the developer of KOTORIII (i hope will still be Obsidion) will be in huge troubles to finalize the trilogy, but also i'm very pleased with TSL and i think Obsidinal have the talent to do a good game that will end the cycle.

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Basically your choices for Revan/Exile would affect who the leaders of the Order are, and what they say.

I, for one, would have prefered a KOTOR 2 where Handmaiden, Mira, Visas, everybody could have died, lived, chosen the dark/light side, befriended or antagonized the main character. Write a sequel to that. :thumbsup:)

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Wow... That would be like what... 10 discs?

 

Hey what if you had KOTORIII blue and KOTORIII red ? That would solve it :(

 

On second thoughts you would need.

 

KOTOR III Red Female

KOTOR III Red Male

KOTOR III Blue Female

KOTOR III Blue Male

 

Hands up who would buy more than one ?

 

( I see a Lucas Arts exec looking at the Pokemon sales and rubbing his hands with glee).

I have to agree with Volourn.  Bioware is pretty much dead now.  Deals like this kills development studios.

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Why not stage the games in intervals of a hundred years each?

To keep the historical timeline uncluttered, leaving lots of empty space for new Star Wars games/novels etc.

 

The galaxy is a big place, with millions (billions?) of star systems. Surely there must be parts that were almost untouched by the events of Kotor 1-2. Thus, you could have the odd familiar character pop up without constantly have to worry about continuity.

 

Trilogies are hard to get right, but have an epic scale that suits the Star Wars universe. I'd rather Obsidian kept getting it three-quarters right than abandon the attempt altogether.

"An electric puddle is not what I need right now." (Nina Kalenkov)

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Wow... That would screw up the whole series... Pokemon sales were all amongst 10 year olds, and even in them you could choose btwn boy and girl.

Geekified Star Wars Geek

 

Heart of the Force, Arm of the Force

 

"Only a Sith deals in absolutes!"

-Obi-wan to Anakin (NOT advocating Grey-Jedidom)

 

"The Force doesn't control people, Kreia controls people."

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Wow... That would be like what... 10 discs?

:o Although you are right, of course, - it would provide quite a challenge for designers- there are ways of making it possible without waiting for the next generation of data-storage devices.

 

First of all, a lot of important choices must be restricted to the end of the game.

Secondly, you would probably have to link some variables (pissing off all good/bad characters in your group, for example).

Also, the alternative dialogue for each character could not be overly extensive.

But it should be possible to provide a number of endings beyond a binary decision between good and evil. You would certainly have to do without an exclusive 5 minute movie-scene for each of them, but then again, who cares?

 

As to ShadowPaladins KOTOR 3 proposal:

Like I said before: I would't want a sequel to such a story, because it had an ending, and I chose it.

Another game: yes. A direct sequel: no!

 

;) But I see a great future for you in the gaming industry!

You certainly have the right ideas to make a lot of money ;)

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