Yet another question about the ending

[Darth Dodo]

Hello.

 

Ok, I know there's been a lot of discussion going on about the ending and read quite a bit of it, and I've skimmed over the cut dialog parts, but I just finished the game and still don't get some very basic things. I don't really care about the the smaller lose ends.

 

 

Here's what I figure:

 

Kreia is not a happy woman. Kreia does not like that the force dominates her destiny, whatever side of it she choses. Kreia decides to destroy the force. Good for you Kreia, that you are confronting your problems.

Kreia has a lucky day, because Kreia finds the "exile", who, a natural born leader, caused a gazillion deaths in the mandalorian war and has thereby gained a weird detachment from the force. Kreia uses the exile to kill off some Sith and Jedi alike and leads him along his past to make him all squishy inside. Well done, Kreia.

Then, Kreia lures the exile to Malachor. The exile cleans Kreia's pet Sith academy and kills her favourite Sith with the vulcanic skin problems. How very considerate of the exile, just according to her plan.

 

And then come the things I don't get at all. The exile confronts Kreia. After having to fight her, I tell her to rest. (I played the light side, by the way):

 

- No more mention of the ultimate force-destroying kablooie. What action of the exile, exactly, could have "destroyed the force"? Or was that just a delusion of the Sith Kreia, who was corrupted and driven insane by the dark side? Does the dark side ending end with doomsday, or the player as an over-the-counter Sith overlord?

 

- Kreia tells me somehing like "Revan and the ones like him were not the real Sith. You must prepare for the real threat." Hu? Ok, there were hints in the game that Revan was trying to unify the galaxy against a larger thread.

[The Great Phantom]

Hello.

 

Ok, I know there's been a lot of discussion going on about the ending and read quite a bit of it, and I've skimmed over the cut dialog parts, but I just finished the game and still don't get some very basic things. I don't really care about the the smaller lose ends.

 

 

Here's what I figure:

 

Kreia is not a happy woman. Kreia does not like that the force dominates her destiny, whatever side of it she choses. Kreia decides to destroy the force. Good for you Kreia, that you are confronting your problems.

Kreia has a lucky day, because Kreia finds the "exile", who, a natural born leader, caused a gazillion deaths in the mandalorian war and has thereby gained a weird detachment from the force. Kreia uses the exile to kill off some Sith and Jedi alike and leads him along his past to make him all squishy inside. Well done, Kreia.

Then, Kreia lures the exile to Malachor. The exile cleans Kreia's pet Sith academy and kills her favourite Sith with the vulcanic skin problems. How very considerate of the exile, just according to her plan.

 

And then come the things I don't get at all. The exile confronts Kreia. After having to fight her, I tell her to rest.  (I played the light side, by the way):

 

- No more mention of the ultimate force-destroying kablooie. What action of the exile, exactly, could have "destroyed the force"? Or was that just a delusion of the Sith Kreia, who was corrupted and driven insane by the dark side? Does the dark side ending end with doomsday, or the player as an over-the-counter Sith overlord?

 

- Kreia tells me somehing like "Revan and the ones like him were not the real Sith. You must prepare for the real threat." Hu? Ok, there were hints in the game that Revan was trying to unify the galaxy against a larger thread.

[Darth Dodo]

Well, thank you for performing some custom flogging of what is probably a rather dead horse here, it cleared things up quite a bit.

[The Great Phantom]

Flogging of a dead horse? I thought it was a cow... They really should have left more pieces behind.

 

Edit: And you asked for the basics. I could go into detail with all the Star Wars references to people that tried to walk the path of indifference. The Korriban Kreia says herself that "Apathy is death...". (Followed by a creepy zombie like echo by everyone else)

[shoheb]

talking of kreia, some refs she makes while in ur party; she does not like that the galaxy suffers and deaths are caused (all a cause of the "will of the force" according to her). she doesnt like the destruction theforce causes , but is willing to destroy everything herself just to be rid of the force. just sumthin i was confused about. did anyone else notice?

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

talking of kreia, some refs she makes while in ur party; she does not like that the galaxy suffers  and deaths are caused (all a cause of the "will of the force" according to her). she doesnt like the destruction theforce causes , but is willing to destroy everything herself just to be rid of the force. just sumthin i was confused about. did anyone else notice?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Some people, could surive the death of the force. Survival of the fitest is a Sith thing. The fact that billions would die dosnt bother her because if they die they are weak and thus not worthy. Those left behind would then be free of the force and free to create their own destinies rather than the ones dictated by the force.

[The Great Phantom]

You two make a valid point. The Exile survived it, but he was strong enough.

 

Kreia is much more of a Witch than a Sith Lord, because she does not seek power, but Revenge.

 

There is one key flaw in Kreia's knowledge. She assumes that the Force controls all, but Handmaiden and Visas point out that there is ALWAYS choice. Handmaiden stresses this early on, but if you're a male PC, then the Meditation scene with Visas also applies this principle.

[DSLuke]

You two make a valid point. The Exile survived it, but he was strong enough.

 

Kreia is much more of a Witch than a Sith Lord, because she does not seek power, but Revenge.

 

There is one key flaw in Kreia's knowledge. She assumes that the Force controls all, but Handmaiden and Visas point out that there is ALWAYS choice. Handmaiden stresses this early on, but if you're a male PC, then the Meditation scene with Visas also applies this principle.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

True the Force can guide you, but cannot control your actions.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

True the Force can guide you, but cannot control your actions.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Thats not what Obi Wan says.

 

"You mean it controls your actions ?"

"Partly, but it also obeys your commands."

 

While Visis and the Handmaiden believe there is choice. It may just be that they lack Kreia's wisdom and experience.

 

Destiny is always a big part of the SW stuff and that implies some greater "force" guiding it.

[DSLuke]

But there is always the choice between light and dark side.

[The Great Phantom]

There may be destiny, but Yoda says that the future is always changing, so it is obvious that it is maleable, and can be changed based on Choice.

 

Kreia is effectivly insane by the end of the game, and Visas has enough experience with both sides of the Force to have that wisdom.

[KotOR_rules2004]

My biggest thing about Kriea is how and why did she just get back together w/ Darth Sion when you are on Malachor V??? Answer this please!!!

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Because after Dantooine she knew the answer to her question and had her revenge already. She knew that you would come after her and try kill Sion and her anyway.

[The Great Phantom]

The Force can control, but it is also controllable. The Jedi seek for this balance btwn the two, but the Sith seek total control, and force it to listen to their commands. The Jedi follow its advice, but the Sith force it to do what they want. Just pointing that out.

 

This means that destiny is what the Jedi try to find, and it comes no matter what, but it may be different than expected. The Sith ignore it, and ony confess to utter powerlessness at death, IF they have regrets. If not, then they join the Dark Side and cause trouble all over the place (Ajunta Pall, etc.)

[KungFuFerret]

Kreia is much more of a Witch than a Sith Lord

 

This is what makes Kreia closer to True Sith (idealogically), then fallen Jedi Sith. Fallen Jedi always cling to their past, and focus their hatred toward it. As such they never "transcend" those boundries. Kreia elaborates on this on Dantooine if you follow the dark side.

 

The only reasoning I can come up as to why Sion decided to bend to her will again is because she knows the "secret." And since he craves power, he decides to do a little brown nosing to learn it. Or perhaps without Nihilus, he's not strong enough to stand up to her himself. It's obvious with your dialog options with him though, that he doesn't understand Kreia at all. But she defnitely understands him. So she has power over him merely because of that.

 

 

And as far as the Force, and it's will. I think it's a lot more then people give it credit for. Choice or not, it's will still comes about. As was the case with Vader. Palpatine tried to alter the outcome, and failed in the end.

 

Putting that into context, it's much easier to see why Kreia hates the Force so much, because no matter what she does, the Force WILL have it's way eventually.

 

While she didn't fully elaborate on it, this is another reason non-Jedi are more powerful then Jedi.

 

 

Han Solo, "There's no all powerful Force controlling MY destiny!"

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Han Solo, "There's no all powerful Force controlling MY destiny!"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes there is. And he's called George.

[KungFuFerret]

I would have to say, not necessarily.

 

George wanted Solo to die in ESB, and Harrison Ford won out.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

I would have to say, not necessarily.

 

George wanted Solo to die in ESB, and Harrison Ford won out. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I did not know that. Dosnt suprise me though. He's really the only one who came out of SW and went on to be a big star.

[Bulgaroctonus]

and that implies some greater "force" guiding it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think that's the whole idea. The Force creates our destiny because we are tied to it, and that the reason Kreia was obsessed with the Exile was because he was not tied to the Force, and was therefore able to forge his own destiny as he saw fit.

 

The Death of the Force is symbolic, not literal. For Kreia, the Exile signals the Death of the Force because he is beyond it's control and if he can do it, the suppostition is that everybody can, and thus, the control of the Force would be ended....

[AlanC9]

Isn't Kreia right?

 

You've got the Exar Kun businesss, then the Jedi Civil War.... wouldn't the average Republic citizen be better off if there were no Force-wielders around at all?

[The Great Phantom]

See what you've done Obsidian? You've warped the minds of fans everywhere by taking out the whole focus of Star Wars!

[The Great Phantom]

Kreia is much more of a Witch than a Sith Lord

 

This is what makes Kreia closer to True Sith (idealogically), then fallen Jedi Sith. Fallen Jedi always cling to their past, and focus their hatred toward it. As such they never "transcend" those boundries. Kreia elaborates on this on Dantooine if you follow the dark side.

 

The only reasoning I can come up as to why Sion decided to bend to her will again is because she knows the "secret." And since he craves power, he decides to do a little brown nosing to learn it. Or perhaps without Nihilus, he's not strong enough to stand up to her himself. It's obvious with your dialog options with him though, that he doesn't understand Kreia at all. But she defnitely understands him. So she has power over him merely because of that.

 

 

And as far as the Force, and it's will. I think it's a lot more then people give it credit for. Choice or not, it's will still comes about. As was the case with Vader. Palpatine tried to alter the outcome, and failed in the end.

 

Putting that into context, it's much easier to see why Kreia hates the Force so much, because no matter what she does, the Force WILL have it's way eventually.

 

While she didn't fully elaborate on it, this is another reason non-Jedi are more powerful then Jedi.

 

 

Han Solo, "There's no all powerful Force controlling MY destiny!"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Un-Force Sensitives are still controlled by the Force, they just can't manipulate it along the way. And even if they don't realize it, everybody has a little Force in them. This is what makes the Exile so dangerous, and Kreia's plot more self-destructive.

 

BTW: The Sith are supposed to hate Jedi. Even the original Sith came from Jedi (the Lords, not species). Plus, they are opposing ends of a spectrum. If someone were to walk the path of nuetrality, they would end up falling to either side. Once again, as Korriban Kreia said, "Apathy is death."

 

Even the Exile is 'controlled' by the Force. And, there is ALWAYS choice. The Force will have it's way in the end, but the affects and intensity of those affects will vary, depending on Choice. If it weren't so, then would the Jedi do everything in their power to resist 'falling?' If the Force had TOTAL control, then this would be a pointless fight, and many more would have joined the Sith.

 

Once again, as Obi-Wan said, the Force PARTLY controls you, but you also PARTLY control it. This in itself is proof that there is Choice.

 

As for the Nature of the Force (which this topic will eventually resort to, I might as well help it along): The Force did not have 'sides' until people chose 'sides.' Until sentience, it was neutral, but with sentience came morallity, which forced it to divide itself. This is stated by many Source Books, and by many comics and whatnot.

 

Kreia bares NO resemblance to any form of True Sith. She may be closer, but she still clings to the light, in quite a few ways. Sith are supposed to seek power, that is their original purpose. The ORIGINAL shism occured when several Jedi discovered that by giving into their baser emotions, they gained instant, and seemingly total, power. The Jedi Council warned them of the consequences, but they ignored, and a massive war started. At the end, they lost, and were exiled. They eventually discovered Korriban, etc., etc.

 

Here's my take on the ancient Sith Lords, just because this fits in with the current state of Kotor.

 

Marka Ragnos was a genious. He was up there with Revan, as far as I can tell. Where every other Sith was involved with expansion, Ragnos delved into ancient records, and heard talk about Jedi, and another 'empire' stronger than most anything else. (These were the records of the Dark Jedi, not the species. If it were records of the actual species, then this would be referring to the Builders.) Ragnos new that if the Sith discovered this 'empire,' then they would be crushed, and the Sith would eventually fall. Therefore, he started a form of martial law, and expansion virtually ceased. The Sith hated him, more or less, for this. BUT, he knew that as long as the Sith were busy hating him, they would not collide with the Republic.

 

Then he died, and his two successors fought. He appeared, and warned them to choose their battles wisely. Then came the Jerrigons (sp???). Sadow, ignoring the advice of Ragnos, saw this as an opportunity to gain power, and expand the Empire once more.

 

If you want me to continue the story, let me know. I think that most people around here know it already, though.

[Jad'en]

The force can control you actions (blaster deflection).

 

Other than that all of those statements seem very truthful...

 

EXCEPT...

 

The Exile is not controlled by the force

 

Even the Jedi masters understand this:

 

"The future is never certain, and he cuts like a blade through it".

 

Face it... the guy is a walking Paradox, being the sole thing (aside from Nihilis) that isnt controlled by Life and Death

[The Great Phantom]

Yep. However, he can still be controlled by the Force (once again, Deflection), but he walks outside of it. I suppose it's like seeing a stampeding herd of buffalo headed right towards your primitive settlement, only being in a helicopter.

 

You're involved, but on a totally different scale. Technically I suppose you could be outside of it, but the Exile gets involved, which is sorta like hovering low with your machine gun trained on the advancing herd, as a warning. You're in it now, but you can get out whenever you want.

 

Edit: Plus, Nihilus was already dead. He sucks the life-force out of people to fill in the gaps where his own once flowed, so he's more like a high-speed stealth bomber. The Exile is just outside of the Force, and is the helicopter: too small for the bomber to notice, but big enough to possibly caus some trouble, with the right tactics.

[Bless]

This whole force control you or force not control you thing . . . I dunno. I thought that it influenced you, that it guided you, but that you ultimately make up your own mind. Like it's a trail that you're walking on; it's guiding you along, but that doesn't mean you can't sit down for awhile or talk with a friend or use your cell phone or deviate off the path for a bit because you saw a cool animal . . . You still have choice, even if you have to follow this trail in one way or another.

 

Or do I make no sense o_O