Kreia vs morality

[Cerebus]

The danger is that the Exile was like a blind man that could see and a deft man that could hear, he could teach others to use the Force without being ruled by it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Is that from the game? Reminds me of an old 'MAD' RotJ parody:

"Search your feelings, Father! The good in your evil is stronger than the evil in your good."

 

With other words: Rethoric that echoes more than it really means. It could be an interesting point, but only if the Force, the will behind it and the new options open to the "blind man" were properly explained. I'm really afraid, though, that good, satisfying answers to these questions are as likely to reveal themselves as the meaning of life itself.

[Drakron]

Well not exactly.

 

When arriving at Citadel Station Kreia says something that for a Jedi being cut from the Force is like lossing all their senses.

 

I think Visas makes a good point later one when she says she follows the Exile because she wants to.

 

I think it deep down goes to will, the Force might have a "destiny" but in the end its the will that matters, Anakin rejected the Dark Side because he chose to do, not because it was his destiny.

 

I also think the Jedi Masters are wrong over the Exile being a wound to the Force, the Exile cut himself from the Force because of the force bounds he have and I think his force bounds did not vanished in Malachor V but remained and not only that he made a force bound with Malachor V itself, what the Jedi Masters were seeing was Malachor V and its dead, not the Exile.

[Zilod]

Yeah, that is one of he points I keep forgetting myself. The reason for that is that the idea of a "forceless" being is kinda vague, especially because the Exile's rediscovery of the force is celebrated as a big event, even by Kreia. And considering the stuff he can do with it and Kreia's philosophy of making use of every tool available, I find it strange that she would refrain from using the ultimate means.

 

The problem here, I guess, is that the Force itself is such a remarkably nondescript concept. What is it? A source of infinite Energy? A conscious entity? Can one use the former without being controlled by the latter, etc, etc. ? I find it strange that Kreia would let her "

[Cerebus]

I think it deep down goes to will, the Force might have a "destiny"  but in the end its the will that matters, Anakin rejected the Dark Side because he chose to do, not because it was his destiny.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So it's all about making one's own decisions and stop believing in destiny?

Hmmm. Not too innovative a point. An important revelation, perhaps, for people who still believe in horoscopes....

If it is meant to inspire people to take action and responsibility, though, I believe it is the wrong message, at the given time. Poor disillusioned old me, for one, could really do with a little sense of destiny right now. I think I learned the "disconnected from the Force" lesson so well that it gets harder and harder to take an interest in anything. The least you can expect for 40 Euros is the revelation of the hidden mechansims of life and its secret purpose

 

And I still have trouble with the "F-word". It is too vague

[SteveThaiBinh]

I think keeping the idea of 'The Force' vague adds to the realism of Star Wars. I don't know anything about EU either, but it would make sense that people in the Star Wars universe wouldn't have a full understanding of the nature of the force. That allows at least two competing interpretations, Jedi and Sith, to co-exist.

 

Carth has an interesting take on the force in Kotor 1. He says he used to think the Dark Side was just another name for commonplace corruption and evil, but travelling with Revan, he came to believe that there was more, that there was 'something out there' waiting to prey on Jedi and turn them to the dark side. That implies that the Dark Side is capable of 'action', which in turn implies some level of consciousness or 'will'. Or the 'something out there' might refer to the True Threat that Revan has gone to face, not the Dark Side itself.

 

I want to separate Kreia's attitude to the Force (anti) from her morality (evil), but I'm not sure how well this works in practice. I can see that you can be pro-force and evil, like Malak and any other Dark Jedi. Can you be anti-Force and good? I think I wrote on another topic once, if you really believe that the Force is manipulating people and inhibiting their freedom, then destroying the force might be seen as a noble aim, 'liberating' the galaxy. This is NOT Kreia's motivation, of course, but I can imagine Jolee Bindo thinking along these lines. It depends on what the practical effects of 'killing' the Force would be. Would there be mass deaths, or just a few Jedi losing some fancy abilities?

[Drakron]

Well not exactly.

 

Kreia wanted to destroy the Force because she did not like the idea of being ruled by a destiny.

 

Right or wrong as she might been she does have a point in thinking that way, the Jedi many times consider thenselves to be "servents of the Force".

 

Think as this way, in religion there is usually the idea we have a destiny and that everything that happens is because some deity decided it.

 

Eventually we broken away from such concepts and belive in "free will" and "choice", no matter how much that is conditionated by sociaty morality and rules.

 

True that "choice" have been used before, its the focus of "The Matrix" triology for example.

[KungFuFerret]

I think that it's entirely possible that the Exile has somehow bonded with the pain of Malachor V itself. On Telos, the Ithorians kind of even hint at this.

 

 

What the Jedi Masters see I think is merely the echo, not the true state that the Exile is in. But this would cause them to be afraid too. Imagine someone force bonding to an entire planet. And why not? Planets are living things.

 

The wound thing comes from how the Exile cut him/herself off. It was so abrupt, and so complete and utter, that is caused the wound (or echo) within the force.

 

Now combine the two. The wound that the Exile involuntarily caused and the wound from millions of dead people, and thousands of dead Jedi. They are linked too. Bao Dur may have created the Mass Shadow Generator, but the Exile gave the order. There's NO denying that guilt.

 

That's a heavy burden to bear, and overwhelming to any who can sense it. To really see deep past that would take some conscious effort, which Kreia did, but the Council obviously did not.

 

 

As for the Exile and the Force, I honestly believe he/she actually did become re-attuned to the force, much like an accident victim undergoes physical therapy, so in that regard, the Exile is just the same as any other Force user. What IS different, is the reflexive instinct to cut it off again. I believe this was the case with Nihilus.

 

Concering your party, it's explained throughout the game about your natural affinity at force bonding. Your companions may willingly wish to help you on your journey, but empathically, they're feeling your emotions, which definitely would sway their decision(s). It's not a deliberate form of control, but it's control nonetheless.

 

In the end, it's still your free will choice, but there is no denying that the Force's will itself had a hand in leading you up to that path.

 

 

That's my take on it anyway from the LS point of view.

[Drakron]

Well in Visas case she is quite clear why she joined and follows him.

 

She sees in the Exile the same pain she carries, seeing a planet dead and that nakes the Exile the only person that can understand and relate to her pain.

 

She also felt the Exile before he could meet her and made her choice before they meet, there is no question that her choice was made before the Force bound.

[Cerebus]

I think keeping the idea of 'The Force' vague adds to the realism of Star Wars. I don't know anything about EU either, but it would make sense that people in the Star Wars universe wouldn't have a full understanding of the nature of the force.  That allows at least two competing interpretations, Jedi and Sith, to co-exist.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

True. But only because Star Wars is founded on romantic ideals. If you accept that and immerse yourself in the fantasy, you don't want to hear anything about "declorions" or "force-spawned immaculate conceptions" etc. The Force is the Force, "and that one, strong in the Force he is, like his father before him", and there is the Light Side, and there is the Dark side, Good, Evil. Period. No more questions.

 

BUT:

 

If a Kreia comes along, and dares to be an interesting character, and dares to ask interesting questions that eat away the protective layer of the romantic bubble, hinting at a philosophical truth beyond the romantic illusions fed to us so far, then I want to know more. And the answers had better be good!

[Cerebus]

Just so you don't get me wrong:

I like good romance. I like Star Wars.

But I also like disruptive, controversial literature.

And the latter one, being more cunning and aware of itself than the former, will always be on top in a direct confrontation. Because it is a cynic, sarcastic bastard of an artform and will hold no punches.

 

And since TSL puts them in the same cage together...

[Sir Fink]

One of the flaws in Kreia is that she often disapproves of the Exile's actions no matter what. I would often save right before a moral choice event and reload if Kreia disapproved of my choice. Turns out, in many instances, Kreia chastises the Exile no matter what he does.

 

You give money to the bum, she says you weakened him and should have made him earn that money on his own. Reload, and tell the bum to get lost and Kreia chastises you for being mean to the guy. Damned if you do....

 

And many of the things she says were just fortune-cookie pseudo philosophy: "Do not see with your eyes but with your perceptions! You listen but do not hear!" blah blah blah. The writers just made her obtuse for the sake of being obtuse and half the crap she says sounds deep but is really quite meaningless.

[SteveThaiBinh]

True. But only because Star Wars is founded on romantic ideals. If you accept that and immerse yourself in the fantasy, you don't want to hear anything about "declorions" or "force-spawned immaculate conceptions" etc. The Force is the Force, "and that one, strong in the Force he is, like his father before him", and there is the Light Side, and there is the Dark side, Good, Evil. Period. No more questions.

Hmmm. What I was trying to say was that it's good that George Lucas, LucasArts and the 'canon' haven't given a precise, 'official' definition of what the force is. Because the effect of that would be to stifle debate and controversy. And it's also good that characters in the Star Wars universe don't have such a 'precise definition' either, because that leads them to struggle to understand it and create conflicting interpretations and religions.

 

It's dangerously easy for an author to over-explain, and diminish the ideas he has created. I'm glad this hasn't happened here.

[Objulen]

I personally liked Kreia challenging conventional Star Wars morality, but for different reasons.

 

Star Wars is a dualistic system, and like the standard LotR D&D world, it is very black and white, good and evil, etc. Shades of grey are few and far between -- in the system, X is right and Y is wrong because Z says so. All one need do is follow the advice of Yoda and your moral integrity is ensured.

 

Such system, while interesting when structured well and origionally (unlike most D&D systems, but Star Wars is alright) are very limited and don't reflect reality well (and the best fantasy/sci-fi is a metaphor for real life). I can cleave through 1000+ foes with a Light Saber, but using a single lightning bolt is evil? Pushing someone with the Force to damage them is wrong, but what about pushing them to save them (say if some random Force user had conveintly pushed the twi'lek off the trap grating in Return of the Jedi before she fell into the rancor pit), even if it deal damage?

 

Some of these question may seem stupid, but it points at the general flaw of Romantic stories and settings -- they lack moral and ethical deapth. In the standard, table top RPG Star Wars setting, if a generator needs a charge to power up, using Force Lighting is evil, even if it saves a slew of people. Real life is never that simple, and alot of times an action has consequences that can be seen as both good and evil; few things are ever completely one-sided in real life. That's why I loved Kreia's dialog in TSL -- it brought up the other side of the coin, the "big picture", as it were.

[Drakron]

That is true, I think only thing that Lucas did was saying the Sith are the inbalance on the Force but that can be interpetarted in many ways, expecialy since he used "Sith" and not "dark side".

[Cerebus]

Hmmm.  What I was trying to say was that it's good that George Lucas, LucasArts and the 'canon' haven't given a precise, 'official' definition of what the force is.  Because the effect of that would be to stifle debate and controversy.  And it's also good that characters in the Star Wars universe don't have such a 'precise definition' either, because that leads them to struggle to understand it and create conflicting interpretations and religions.

It's dangerously easy for an author to over-explain, and diminish the ideas he has created.  I'm glad this hasn't happened here.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes, I agree with you.

 

But Kreia definitely professes to know a lot about the Force, the Universe and Everything (if my memory doesn't fail me, that is). And since she goes to such length to do stuff to the Force and find a Jedi that cut himself off from it etc. etc. then I expect her to know quite a bit.

And with knowledge come more questions.

 

Once again, I totally agree with you. Nothing is better than a good mystery.

As long as it prevails, the audience is interested. In case of Star Wars, the mystery is a soft, undefined thing in the background. There is the occasional vague explanation, but that's it. It is an impersonal energy, some kind of current running through the collective unconscious, whatever. Ask no questions, hear no lies. As long as it enables Luke to blow up the Death Star, Vader to choke some poor sod, Qui-Gonn Jin to run and jump like a bunny and Exile to use [Force persuade], I'm quite cool with it.

 

The declorions in TPM were definitely a step in the wrong direction. However, they were a stupid idea, so I just try to forget about them and that's that.

 

But now comes this fascinating old woman, claims that the Force is aware of itself and has a will of its own, that there are other entities alive in the Force, trying to gain control of it and us, and that there actually is a way, a better way, to live without it. She says that our morality is bound to the Force, as are our very thoughts. At the same time, there is thought outside of the Force. And now, I'm curious. Someone has started solving the Force's mysteries. Only problem is: If you start solving a mystery, you will end up doing it. And once it is solved, the magic's gone. Kreia's offered me a bite of the apple of Eden. And I've taken it. Now I want it all. And what I got didn't satisfy me.

[Cerebus]

And many of the things she says were just fortune-cookie pseudo philosophy: "Do not see with your eyes but with your perceptions! You listen but do not hear!" blah blah blah. The writers just made her obtuse for the sake of being obtuse and half the crap she says sounds deep but is really quite meaningless.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yeah, that's right. However, it makes it all the more shocking when she switches from Yoda-like mumbo-jumbo to a provocative pointed observation.

[Drakron]

Kreia is wrong, she is capable of error as well as anyone.

 

This sould be keep in mind since many are thinking she holds the truth over the Force but she does not, her knowledge is warped by her perceptions and she holds no absolute truths.

 

Taking Kreia apple is not taking Eden apple, she is as blind to the Force as the Jedi Masters and the Sith Lords.

 

Vergere also have her "unique" views on the Force, it does not make her right ...

[Cerebus]

Kreia is wrong, she is capable of error as well as anyone.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But she is also cool, and delivers critical observations that make her more believable than Jedi-Master Christian Mo'R-Ality and his crew. So, in the end, I would rather follow her, if only because she's more entertaining. And this leads me back to the beginning of this thread...

[Hunter_of_Chaos]

The Jedi and the Sith are not the only two "Force philosophies" in the SW Universe,

There are many other force sensitive groups in the galaxy (Baran-Do for example)

It is said that the force is not something that can be given one single definition.

And it is also said that although there are many definitions of the force ,neither one of them is the most proper one. There are only more popular ones (Jedi,Sith) and less popular ones, and all of them are true, since each of them describes the force from a different perspective...

[Zilod]

I had the impression too that Kreia had a lot of knowledge about the force, but she doesn't share it with us...

 

She generally say that not the jedi, nor the siths have the knowledge of it and what they understand about the force is restricted by their pilosophy.

She say that the force control and forge destiny of people but not much more.

 

By what she say we can't argue too much, even if we speak about the "will" of the force it could be a conscious will, or something like the fate in ancient mithology.

 

All these infos are nothing really new, and can be extrapolated from the original trilogy.

even the definition of the force as light and dark side imply that they are just different sides of a same coin, and you can't know the coin looking at just one side.

 

I don't think she gave us a bite of the apple, she is keeping it for herself

[Ulicus]

I agree the "light side" is a dumb thing that come with the EU, the movies just say "The Force" and "The Dark Side of the Force" ... in fact Star Wars d20 rules have Force Points and Dark Side points and they work diferenty, Force points are awarded from doing something heroic, for example, as Dark Side points are from calling the Dark Side (such as using certain Force Powers).

 

Reminds me of a massive debate I had on the Bioware forums....

 

Me: Ok then, find ONE instance in the entire Star Wars saga of the phrase "Light side"... "Good" side doesn't count.

 

 

As for the gameplay... I think KotOR should start doing something more akin to SW:RPG. You shouldn't get LS/DS points for what you *say* but for what you do. LS points for heroism, DS points for selecting Dark Side powers at level up and using the dark side.

 

What would be rrrrrreally cool, is if as you got more and more DS points, you were actually *unable* to pick the "good" options to conversations, or were forced into making your character a bad guy.

 

For example: Neutral character could say:

 

1) [Truth] I will be good!

2) [Lie] I will be good!

3) I will be evil!

4) Do we have to talk abotu morality?

 

A character who's accumilated a lot of dark side points could only say

 

1) [Lie] I will be good!

2) I will be evil!

3) Do we have to talk about morality?

 

That works far better with the concept of "once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny" and would also make people actually *think* about if it was a risk worth taking.

 

After all, everyone likes to think they have complete control over their characters and if taking DS powers actually *limited* what you could do with your character personality wise, then it would be cooler I think.

 

I mean, a big problem I find with the EU (and with KotOR, but since I love it I let it slide) is that they constantly stress the theme that "you can come back from the Dark Side". No. No. No. Canonically speaking, Vader is the only person in *history* to have done so. Otherwise what would have prompted Yoda to have said his most famous quote on the dark side?

 

I mean, it wasn't like this:

 

Yoda: Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will!!! But I mean, occasionally come back to the light can you, happens does it sometimes - not so bad is the dark side really - many Jedi fall and come back, all the time happens does it. Revan for instance take, Juhani too, Ulic...

[Hunter_of_Chaos]

I don't think she gave us a bite of the apple, she is keeping it for herself

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I doubt she even has the apple , i'd say she only has a piece

just like everyone else. And i doubt anyone ever will get the whole apple.

No matter how long someone will spend studying the Force he\she will only have a piece in the end.

[Tanuvein]

I mean, a big problem I find with the EU (and with KotOR, but since I love it I let it slide) is that they constantly stress the theme that "you can come back from the Dark Side".  No. No. No.  Canonically speaking, Vader is the only person in *history* to have done so.  Otherwise what would have prompted Yoda to have said his most famous quote on the dark side?

 

I mean, it wasn't like this:

 

Yoda: Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will!!! But I mean, occasionally come back to the light can you, happens does it sometimes - not so bad is the dark side really - many Jedi fall and come back, all the time happens does it.  Revan for instance take, Juhani too, Ulic...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That's because Yoda has chubby fingers and can't type 'givelightside 100'

[Hunter_of_Chaos]

But still... Redemption IS one of the more importaint themes of SW

The way I interpert Yodas line is:

if you let the dark side corrupt you ,you will always have its dark mark on your past and on who you are, you will always remember all the evil you have done, and guilt will always torment you IF you even escape the dark sides grasp.

[Drakron]

Well the redeption theme was abused by the EU, as much as the "super weapon of the week".

 

Heck its still being used, I give OE writters credit for not making it a center part of this game story.

 

Its dificult to make a game were if the player goes down a certain path he cannot back down because they know most players dont want that, the only Star Wars game I remenber forced that was "Dark Forces II, Jedi Knight" were at a point the gane would look at certain hidden statistics and force down a path to the end.