Sarjahurmaaja. Posted February 22, 2004 Posted February 22, 2004 Kharn = teh win!!1 9/30 -- NEVER FORGET!
neriana Posted February 22, 2004 Posted February 22, 2004 I'd like to point out that the scientists who push "Intelligent Design" (ugh) are few and far between. The vast majority of reputable scientists won't go anywhere near religion, except when they're forced into it by the weirdoes who think that if we teach our children the truth of evolution, they'll lose their religious beliefs. Anyone whose religious beliefs can be destroyed by scientific fact doesn't have much faith to begin with. Imagine teaching physics without gravity or relativity - that's what teaching biology without evolution is like, if not more so. As for "the moral foundation of the universe", um, there isn't one. We know in America that it's totally, utterly, completely wrong to murder a woman because she was "shamed" by being raped. In India and the Middle East, that is not so. We know that slavery is wrong - that hasn't been true throughout most of humanity's written history. Many of us know that killing animals for their fur, attempting to control reproductive rights, not allowing homosexuals to marry, and leaving your turn signal on while driving in the left lane 5 miles under the speed limit are all reprehensible. Everyone doesn't agree. Even incest, that "universal taboo", has had its adherents throughout history in the upper classes. "Pure blood" and all that rot. C.S. Lewis was a wonderful author and quite a good philosopher, but that's all. God, or Nirvana, or the spirit world, or whatever, is neither provable nor disprovable. I like Pascal's theory: he decided that he'd get in very big trouble if he didn't believe in God but s/he turned out to exist. If there wasn't a god, no big deal. But if there was and he had no faith, he'd be in trouble after he died. Covered his bases quite well B)
Dark Lord Revan Posted February 23, 2004 Posted February 23, 2004 Truth is relative, Craftman. Always have been and always will be. One man's good can be another man's evil. Its all depends on interpretation. Funny. Do you know this is the exact same logic General Groves used to convince Truman to drop the Bomb on two heavily populated cities? Ultimately it did win the war, but at what cost? You use the same logic that allows man to justify murder and war. Truth is relative you say. Such logic honestly makes no sense to begin with. 2+2=4. Thats truth. God created the universe. Thats truth. Jesus Christ died for our sins. Thats truth. Evil will always triumph because good is dumb! prostytutka
Dark Lord Revan Posted February 23, 2004 Posted February 23, 2004 I'd like to point out that the scientists who push "Intelligent Design" (ugh) are few and far between. I assure you there are MANY of us out there. I worke as an intern at Brookhaven National Lab last summer and I would say about half the people in my department (over 400 total) believed in God. How do I know this? I saw them in church Evil will always triumph because good is dumb! prostytutka
Judge Hades Posted February 23, 2004 Posted February 23, 2004 Someone hasn't read George Orwell. 2+2=5, buddy. If God created the universe where is the evidence?
Gorth Posted February 23, 2004 Posted February 23, 2004 2+2=4. Thats truth. God created the universe. Thats truth. Jesus Christ died for our sins. Thats truth. Where did you get the idea from that 2+2=4 ??? That is not necessarily the truth, only accepted by the the unwashed masses as such. Ever worked with complex numbers ? 2+2 yields and infinite number of possible values of which 4 is only a rare case. Of course, you could be assuming that i=0 always, but that is being lazy Hands up those who actually believed 2+2=4 ? “He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein
Gorth Posted February 23, 2004 Posted February 23, 2004 I guess that the fact that i actully believe in a god and has been known to frequent a church every now and then is besides the point of the current "discussion". I use the term discussion loosely as it implies that more than one participant offers intelligent arguments that support a point of view. If one part presents arguments and the other part presents name calling, it looses its educational value. Most often resulting in one part getting a slightly amusing expericence and the other part a headache and too high bloodpressure (and a sore throat from all the yelling ?). The existence (spelling?) of God was never questioned (by me) only the original arguements presented, as they didn't hold up to scrutiny. If somebody had said to me it was a personal experience/enlightenment thing, i would havd taken it at face value. Faith is never an excuse for dismantling your brain and start repeating, often ridiculous, klichees ad nauseam. That simply doesn't serve any purpose and does no good not to anybody, not to your faith. While people who substitute thought with faith instead of embracing both *can* be entertaining to keep around for a while they eventually grow boring. Press button 1 and subject of study jumps left, press button 2 and subject jumps right. Press button 3 and subject goes postal on you. This thread has probably lost its usefulness and will eventually receive one of those funny little padlock symbols for turning into personal flames, no big loss. Now if the subject could be put into a crate however... with a maze and a chunk of cheese at the exit. that would at least retain some of the interest in the thread, no ? “He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein
Aegeri Posted February 23, 2004 Posted February 23, 2004 I'd like to point out that the scientists who push "Intelligent Design" (ugh) are few and far between. I assure you there are MANY of us out there. I worke as an intern at Brookhaven National Lab last summer and I would say about half the people in my department (over 400 total) believed in God. How do I know this? I saw them in church That doesn't mean they even remotely accept intelligent design. I have a large group of Christian friends and quite a few of them do not believe in Creation (others do). It may also surprise you to know, that despite being a scientist and firmly understanding evolution, I do happen to believe in God. Do I have to believe in the bible word for word to do so however? No. So just because I am a scientist that believes in God, does not mean that I accept the incredibly ridiculous assertations that Intelligent designers actually make. Intelligent design is a massively flawed theory, because in order to make it work you have to blatantly lie about how the biology of what you're talking about actually functions. The classic example is the bacterial flagella, which while incredibly complex is not actually irreducibly complex at all, and could have clearly evolved from other structures including the ATPase. So I would clearly say it is indeed true that few scientists do ascribe to intelligent design, just like how few are actually creationists, and you can tell that because none of them ever get into significant journals like Nature or Science. I've always made the challenge to demonstrate a single creationist/intelligent design paper from Nature/Science, and so far all have failed. In any event, if anyone can present a single logical proven argument for intelligent design I would be surprised. (I am a microbiologist/immunologist if anyone is wondering, and yes indeed, I am still not an atheist despite my acceptance of evolution etc. I just see God differently than most other people do). Boss: You're fired. Me: Ummm will you let me have my job if I dance for you? Boss: No, I don't think so- Me: JUST LET ME DANCE *Dances*
Sarjahurmaaja. Posted February 23, 2004 Posted February 23, 2004 "Where?s the truth? OK first lets get one thing straight. Know one man knows the truth. By truth i mean has actually happened. It is the actual reality. As humans we have devised methods of communicating and solving problems. Such as languages and maths. We decided to call 'that' number of objects 4. All i see u doing is going around the bush, by embarrassingly scrambling words in and effort for us to believe that u know what u r talking about. The fact is you appear continually is a state of denial, u are being ignorant. Lets hope that changes." Every time I'm thinking about our existance, whether this is all a dream and none of you are real, I get hit in the face with this. I could never come up with something as stupid as this. The level of idiocy you display is far beyond my grasp. It's a shame life will probably not kick you in the face for being stupid, but will instead go easy on you. There's no justice in the world. I hope you're sterile. 9/30 -- NEVER FORGET!
Sammael Posted February 23, 2004 Posted February 23, 2004 Man, believing in some sort of god, that angels fletter about, and a big nasty devil exists doesn't sound like someone who has a firm grip of reality. *squashes an astral deva like a bug* Of course a big nasty devil doesn't exist. There's a whole bunch of us. There are no doors in Jefferson that are "special game locked" doors. There are no characters in that game that you can kill that will result in the game ending prematurely.
Mr. Teatime Posted February 24, 2004 Posted February 24, 2004 I don't believe in God. I believe in Roger Taylor's quote on the subject of religion: 'I dont like religion, it tends to f*** people up'. End of story.
Dark Lord Revan Posted February 24, 2004 Posted February 24, 2004 2+2=4. Thats truth. God created the universe. Thats truth. Jesus Christ died for our sins. Thats truth. Where did you get the idea from that 2+2=4 ??? That is not necessarily the truth, only accepted by the the unwashed masses as such. Ever worked with complex numbers ? 2+2 yields and infinite number of possible values of which 4 is only a rare case. Of course, you could be assuming that i=0 always, but that is being lazy Hands up those who actually believed 2+2=4 ? Yes as a matter of fact I work with complex numbers on a daily basis Fine. You win 2+2=4 {for all intergers | such that Z is real} And that is that! Evil will always triumph because good is dumb! prostytutka
Dark Lord Revan Posted February 24, 2004 Posted February 24, 2004 Um, OK so you know The Truth. That's nice for you. I'll just sit in my little corner playing with my little doubts, learning about this silly little universe that's all been explained to you so fully that you don't need to think any longer, and allowing myself to use the brain and imagination I've been granted, don't mind me. I didn't say I knew everything. All I am saying is that God is the REASON there is a universe. How it works is still a mystery to us all. Evil will always triumph because good is dumb! prostytutka
Atreides Posted February 24, 2004 Posted February 24, 2004 Um, OK so you know The Truth. That's nice for you. I'll just sit in my little corner playing with my little doubts, learning about this silly little universe that's all been explained to you so fully that you don't need to think any longer, and allowing myself to use the brain and imagination I've been granted, don't mind me. I didn't say I knew everything. All I am saying is that God is the REASON there is a universe. How it works is still a mystery to us all. Yes, and all the more reason for us to try to understand those mysteries. I get perplexed when people assume people with religious beliefs aren't interested in learning more about the world around them through science (since it's something to work with). Spreading beauty with my katana.
neriana Posted February 24, 2004 Posted February 24, 2004 Yes, and all the more reason for us to try to understand those mysteries. I get perplexed when people assume people with religious beliefs aren't interested in learning more about the world around them through science (since it's something to work with). How do you know God is the reason there's a universe? How can you be so dismissive of people who don't "know" that "fact"? How can you "know" Jesus died for our sins? I know the Bible better than most religious people I've met - it's a big history/philosophy/law/myth/poetry book as far as I'm concerned, just like the Koran or the Vedas or the Torah. How can you get past the fact that if we were born in India, we'd (probably) think cows were holy? None of this is knowable. In fact, if you have to "know" it to believe it, maybe you don't have enough faith.
Judge Hades Posted February 24, 2004 Posted February 24, 2004 The funny thing is this. The Gospels were written after Jesus was killed. The earliest being about 30 to 40 years after by members of the beginning church. How do this people know what Jesus did or said verbatem after 30 to 40 years. How accurate can it be? The culture in which Christianity sprung from where not one focused on oral historical accuracy like Native American cultures. I think that with each telling there was a bit of embelishment made. You know, like those Paul Bunyan tales. Also you call him the Son of God, but that was arbitrarily assigned to him by the Council of Chalcedon (msp?) about 412 C.E. As well as his birthday being December 25th. Frankly if you take all the major Christian holidays you will find them happening about the same time of major pagan holidays. Christmas? Winter Solstice. Easter? Spring Solstice (or is it Equinox). These are HUMAN inventions, not because of some god. That is why I came to the conclusion that Christianity is a sham religion, but that is just me. There is no God. Just because we don't know how the universe began doesn't mean some god had a hand in it.
Atreides Posted February 24, 2004 Posted February 24, 2004 Yes, and all the more reason for us to try to understand those mysteries. I get perplexed when people assume people with religious beliefs aren't interested in learning more about the world around them through science (since it's something to work with). How do you know God is the reason there's a universe? How can you be so dismissive of people who don't "know" that "fact"? How can you "know" Jesus died for our sins? I know the Bible better than most religious people I've met - it's a big history/philosophy/law/myth/poetry book as far as I'm concerned, just like the Koran or the Vedas or the Torah. How can you get past the fact that if we were born in India, we'd (probably) think cows were holy? None of this is knowable. In fact, if you have to "know" it to believe it, maybe you don't have enough faith. Eh, I didn't take a position one way or another. My "all the reason for us to try to understand those mysteries" could be applied from both (or more) angles. I just observed that religious ppl don't necessarily fit into a stereotype implying they're against getting a better understanding of their surroundings. Spreading beauty with my katana.
Gorth Posted February 24, 2004 Posted February 24, 2004 Yes as a matter of fact I work with complex numbers on a daily basis Fine. You win 2+2=4 {for all intergers | such that Z is real} And that is that! Agree! :D “He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein
neriana Posted February 24, 2004 Posted February 24, 2004 Eh, I didn't take a position one way or another. My "all the reason for us to try to understand those mysteries" could be applied from both (or more) angles. I just observed that religious ppl don't necessarily fit into a stereotype implying they're against getting a better understanding of their surroundings. OK, sorry. I totally agree with the fact that all religious people are not incurious or anti-intellectual. I was just replying to one person's apparent position.
Iolo Posted February 24, 2004 Posted February 24, 2004 These sort of discussions are always pointless. If you beleive that God exists, then he does, for you. No amount of arguing will change that.
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