Mandalorian Wars

[Drakron]

The last HK-47 dialogue told a lot about Revan's motives at the end of the Mandalorian war.  He has two main points about malachor 5

 

That the soliders and jedi that did die i the battle were ones that did not like Revan, or agree with some of his ideas.  HK refers to this as "Cleaning House"

 

That the jedi and soliders that did go with the war began to be converted to the dark side by the death and destruction they were forced to cause

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Problem is that its wrong, heck one of the cut dialogue in Malachor V have a programmer references saying that it makes no sense what Atton is saying because until that point Revan was a Jedi, a rogue Jedi but still a Jedi.

 

Problem with the game dialogue is that since the game was rushed they did not had the time to go over the story and remove the inconsistences.

[Ulicus]

She said that he may have fallen on the outside, but that he retained his true personality deep inside. When the Jedi captured him, his true personality resurfaced for a short time. (If you're DS (Revan), then she says that he falls back, but if you're lightside (Revan) then she leaves it at that.)

 

Just thought I'd point it out.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well yes- but isn't that essentially what happens with Vader?

 

His "true personality" remains deep inside, so deep that even he doesn't know it's there.

 

If that's what Kreia actually says (i've never actually heard it :"> ) then that's pretty cool and is in *no* way saying that he didn't fall. It's just equating him to Anakin.... seems to happen a lot with Revan. (Though to what extent Anakin knew what he was doing is questionable... from what I know about Episode III though it does look like he makes a conscious choice to go DS)

 

Yeah, I'm happier about that now.

[Helton]

Kreia effectively says that you are already assuming things by saying Revan fell. As always, she talks in questions. But did Revan fall? Or was he really preparing the Galaxy for... whatever.

 

 

In responce to your previous post:

 

1. I don't remember Kreia saying she never fell, if she would have said that, then she would have said that.

 

2. The Star Forge was temporary, yes. Why? Because it slowly consumes anyone who uses it. For someone who had truly fallen, this presents little problem, as absolute power is usually (always?) the only goal for a Sith. The very fact that Revan planned to stop using it is evidence that he never *truly* fell.

 

I'm not saying he wasn't a dark Jedi/Sith, and I'm not saying he had not embraced the dark side. The fact is that "fell" is rather vague. Kreia implies he didn't fall, and the rest is interpretation. In the end, it all runs along the central theme of TSL. Good and Evil are vague, do the ends justify the means, could Revan have turned back whenever he wished to? Debating these things is like debating philosophy or religion, because in essense that's what it is. The game is up for interpretation, and thus little things like this are as well.

[The Great Phantom]

Kreia implied that it was a 'sacrifice'. Perhaps...

[phoq]

wow, this thread sure is interesting, tho confusing at times...

 

anyway, while reading up, a few things came to mind.

SPOILERS (I guess)

 

 

 

 

Someone mentionned Nihilus not killing your party when you fight him. I think a lot of speculations could be made as to why he didn't end Mandalore's nor Visas's lives. But about the PC, I think that her/his whole "closing to the force" thing was the point of being the only one that could stand Nihilus' hunger. That through cutting oneself from the force willingly in order to survive, that made the PC somewhat resistant to the darth's hunger. In fact, it even seemed to weaken him... The PC was a bait to Nihilus because of the growing reconnection to the Force, yet a weapon against him as well.

 

About Revan, I don't think he/she ever had conscience of his "falling" unless it was thrown in his face by the Jedi Council. I guess Revan always followed his conscience, as when it told him to go and face the Mandalorians.

 

Someone mentionned the inconsistencies in the plotline as a result of the rushed job. I just want to point out that in the game (as well as movie and animation) business, storylines and voice acting are the things that are written and recorded first. Kinda hard to rush something at the beginning of a project, even more if the projects rely on it. Not that it cannot happens, but it'd be weird... I "blame" the gaps in the story on the fact that a lot of content had to be cut. Listening to the unused voice clips really enlighten me on a few things in the game...

 

Last thing, am I the only one who remembers Canderous from the first game talking about something he awakened in a frozen asteroid?? How that thing came to life and flew beyond the Outer Rim..? That could PERHAPS help understand a few things about the "True Sith"...

 

Just my 2 cents in the pot anyway!!!

[Drakron]

Excuse me ...

 

For god sake, not the damn Vorg cameo again.

 

I know a lot of people dont know what I am talking about but that convertation of Canderous is just a "easter egg" of the Vorg and no, they are not Sith and cannot be used until the New Jedi Order timeline.

[phoq]

Excuse me ...

 

For god sake, not the damn Vorg cameo again.

 

I know a lot of people dont know what I am talking about but that convertation of Canderous is just a "easter egg" of the Vorg and no, they are not Sith and cannot be used until the New Jedi Order timeline.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

gee, sorry about that, I didn't know it was an easter egg :">

I just thought it was pretty random in the first game

[The Great Phantom]

wow, this thread sure is interesting, tho confusing at times...

 

anyway, while reading up, a few things came to mind.

SPOILERS (I guess)

 

 

 

 

Someone mentionned Nihilus not killing your party when you fight him. I think a lot of speculations could be made as to why he didn't end Mandalore's nor Visas's lives. But about the PC, I think that her/his whole "closing to the force" thing was the point of being the only one that could stand Nihilus' hunger. That through cutting oneself from the force willingly in order to survive, that made the PC somewhat resistant to the darth's hunger. In fact, it even seemed to weaken him... The PC was a bait to Nihilus because of the growing reconnection to the Force, yet a weapon against him as well.

 

About Revan, I don't think he/she ever had conscience of his "falling" unless it was thrown in his face by the Jedi Council. I guess Revan always followed his conscience, as when it told him to go and face the Mandalorians.

 

Someone mentionned the inconsistencies in the plotline as a result of the rushed job. I just want to point out that in the game (as well as movie and animation) business, storylines and voice acting are the things that are written and recorded first. Kinda hard to rush something at the beginning of a project, even more if the projects rely on it. Not that it cannot happens, but it'd be weird... I "blame" the gaps in the story on the fact that a lot of content had to be cut. Listening to the unused voice clips really enlighten me on a few things in the game...

 

Last thing, am I the only one who remembers Canderous from the first game talking about something he awakened in a frozen asteroid?? How that thing came to life and flew beyond the Outer Rim..? That could PERHAPS help understand a few things about the "True Sith"...

 

Just my 2 cents in the pot anyway!!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

O.K. You basically sumarized everything I have said in the many convo's I've had about Nihilus on this forum.

 

One thing: It is inferred by the Jedi Masters and Kreia that the Exile does not gain the connection on their own. The Exile can manipulate the Force through other people, which allows for his/her bonding. This is strongly inferred to.

 

Nihilus apparently has a similar ability, on a MUCH grander scale. Visas is his link to the ship. She can break it temporarily, but eventually he forces his will back into her.

 

Nihilus was/is DEAD, according to references in the game. My theory is that he tries to fill in the wholes where his life used to flow, like an extreme version of the Exile. I posted more of my theory on the other Nihilus discussions, for those that wish to participate.

[The Great Phantom]

*I feel this will gonna be a loooong thread *

 

Ok,so after we discussed about the end,about the plot which doesn't exist,about the lack of information given for the sith lords and so on,there is a one last thing that doesn't fit in: The mandalorian wars.Now this is somewhat a vague topic,so I'll expect everyone to pump out with their specific question here,but for now here are mine:

 

1)For a start: When they started,why,and who led them?I know that in Kotor 1 you get some stories about it from Canderous,but in kotor 2 it's very little info about...

 

2)Ok,Revan and Malak joined the war,fall to the dark side,bla bla bla.There are two things in the end that are contradictory:

a)The fallen revan fought the mandalorians and crushed them at malachor V (see kotor 1 and 2);

b)The Mandalorians were trained by the sith to fight the republic (see kotor2)(this explains their resistance to the force).

 

+The sith were fighting the republic in kotor 1.So taking in consideration all of this,at least one of the above infos can't be true...

 

 

Just to resume the contradiction:

 

Revan vs Mandalorians

Revan and Mandalorians vs Republic

Revan vs Republic

 

In fact the whole thing about revan,you and mandalorian wars is a big nebula...

 

3)What exactly happened at malachor 5?Bao-dur says he made some sort of weapon that crushed everything (planet gravity).How come all the ships were disabled as well....

 

The real question is what happened at malachor 5?...no-one tells anything for sure...

 

4)What on earth is the mass shadow generator supposed to be?You activate it with the remote,fine,but then what? No-one shows what is exactly...

And no,it ain't that big storm-because that is DISABLED and the msass shadow gen is ENABLED.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, I figure I might as well answer the original topic. I know some of these have been answered already, but I'm going to answer them anyway.

 

1) They were fought by the Mandalorians. According to Canderous, the Sith gave them a challenge that they could not turn down. Most people just assumed that it was refering to Exar Kun, but KOTOR II throws a new light on it. They attacked from 3 'vectors' and started hitting Rim worlds first. I'm not going into detail about the Wars right now... I'm too lazy. :ph34r:

 

2) They were trained AFTER the War, when they were reduced to petty mercenaries. They fought for the Sith, mostly, and would naturally have undergone anti-Jedi training. Revan gave the order to the Exile to detonate Malachor, wiping out much of the Republic Fleet stationed there, which was made up of people that may not have trusted Revan so much.

The Exile formed bonds willy-nilly, so he felt the deaths of so many on a much more personal level. It was almost like dying thousands of times over, I'm sure. That is why they cut themselves off from the Force: to protect themselves. If not, then they would have gone insane and died.

 

3) The Mass Shadow Generator is some form of gravity 'flux' thingy, that wiped out the Mandalorians and most Republic troopers near Malachor. It basically destabilized the planet, as far as I can tell. Probably screwed up the magnetic field.

 

4) I stated what the Mass Shadow Generator is in the previous answer. This is just information picked up from the game, so some pieces may be missing.

 

And about the Sith thingy... The 'True Sith' are different, though nobody can be positive how until Kotor III comes out (LA, if you're reading this: I'm boycotting Star Wars games until Kotor III is for sure in development and we know it won't be rushed :ph34r: ).

 

If I missed a question, lemme know.

[Drakron]

gee, sorry about that, I didn't know it was an easter egg  :">

I just thought it was pretty random in the first game

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well I dont expect everthing Star Wars, expecialy things outside the movies.

 

This is one of the dangers of making a Star Wars game and I think as BioWare was careful over how to explain everything they put on the game so players dont have to hunt down the information on their own, OE relied too much on the idea people played KotOR before to fill in details.

 

Also they come out with things they did not explained at all, the Exile might not have ammesia but there sould been a way to tell the Exile past intead of us guessing what happened.

[The Great Phantom]

There is. Look at the dialogue options. Just pretend like you know what you're saying, and you're talking about his past. He/she knows what they're talking about, but you don't.

 

The beginning amnesia is understandable. If you've ever been in the hospital and been 'put under', then you would remember the almost painful disorientation that follows. This is something similar to what happens in the beginning, and later on, they assume that you have looked beyond what you see into the Core of the story. (Few people have the want to do so... they expect it to jump out at you. To all of you that do this: It ain't goin to happen. Get over it.)

[Drakron]

Sorry but no, OE left many things unexplained unless we had high influence with other NPCs.

 

It was not handled very well, in Telos they could very well put a "hall of records" (instead of that understaffed "hospital") to put in what happened in the Mandalorian wars (Revan and the Exile place on then) and in the Jedi Enclave sub level they also had the chance to fill in the background over the Exile and Revan as Jedi.

 

I dont like half guessing the choices, I had no idea who was that guy calling me general and even less idea of how did I know him so well (the exile own words).

 

One thing is going to Onberon and not knowing who was the Beast Riders and another that I had fought in Duxn during the Mandalorian wars.

[jedipodo]

Does what you are saying/guessing about your past change the story in any respect (e.g. what Bao-Dur narrates about the past)?

[Drakron]

Doubt it.

 

But the player gets some idea of who he is and why Malanchor V is such a painful memory to the survivors.

 

I dont like to be keep in the dark, in KotOR we already knew Revan role in the Mandalorian Wars as well in the Sith Invasion (I refuse to call it Jedi Civil War) well before Malak comes out and say "You dont remenber? well you ARE Revan" with drives the player to seek revenge or redeption.

 

What the game is asking is pretty the equivelent of feeling sorry for being in Iwo Jiwa without knowing what happened in Iwo Jiwa.

[AngryTarsier]

Iwo Jima???

 

exactly! the veterans(survivors) of Iwo Jima were our sources for that battle. the last survivors of that battle were turned to the dark side and became sith under revan and malak or scattered and lived in seclusion like bao-dur... only the exile went to the jedi council to accept judgement. its an event where nobody knows what really happened bcoz the participants A. are reluctant to tell (bao-dur/exile) B. joined the sith army, and will definitely kill you if you ask.. or c. deceased

 

we only get bits and pieces from the characters that do tell... our job is to piece together the story.. from the mandalore and mira we get that the majority of the mandalorian army and a lot of captured slaves were killed there and from bao-dur we discover that it was his mass shadow generator that killed this planet.. and you were his commander. from HK we know that it was Revan's plan to draw out the remaining mandalorian fleet in a battle over Malachor V. I have yet to get the stories of others.. but atton would explain the fate of the turned jedis and soldiers... how their emotions feed the corruption of the Dark Side.. and most of them fell...

 

its an interesting take on a plot.... MY THING IS THAT IT WAS POORLY EXECUTED...

[The Great Phantom]

Not poorly executed, just rushed. Even doing most or all of the quests, it only took me 29 hours to beat the game. In Kotor I it took me 45 hours my first play through.

 

It was a good story, you just have to look deep, which most people aren't used to doing.

[The Great Phantom]

Does what you are saying/guessing about your past change the story in any respect (e.g. what Bao-Dur narrates about the past)?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It doesn't change anything as far as I could tell. The dialog options are put there to explain your past to you. I write stories, and make the occasional game (nothing too advanced yet), and the way I tell the background of a key character is either through allusion to their past, or through a flashback. Since Obsidian could not do flashbacks, then allusion was their obvious choice. I may be wrong, but that is what I think would logically take place.

 

I agree that it is annoying that you have to get high amounts of influence with every character to get the whole story, but I don't get why people keep complaining. On my first play through LS, I got max influence with everybody except HK-47, GO-TO, and Bao Dur. I got max w/ Mira, but I payed no attention to her, so she never became a Jedi, caus I never asked.

 

If you're going to play a game, shouldn't you try to get as much playing in? KOTOR II isn't one of those games you can rush through, only covering where you HAVE to go. You need to explore everything, and gain influence with the right people: obviously the ones that know things about your past.

 

I have no complaints about how the story went, even if it was a little rushed. It referred to things that solve the puzzles, and the only parts I disliked were the ending (would "To be continued..." be too difficult???) and the 'missing planet,'

[Jedi Master D Murda]

*I feel this will gonna be a loooong thread *

 

Ok,so after we discussed about the end,about the plot which doesn't exist,about the lack of information given for the sith lords and so on,there is a one last thing that doesn't fit in: The mandalorian wars.Now this is somewhat a vague topic,so I'll expect everyone to pump out with their specific question here,but for now here are mine:

 

1)For a start: When they started,why,and who led them?I know that in Kotor 1 you get some stories about it from Canderous,but in kotor 2 it's very little info about...

 

2)Ok,Revan and Malak joined the war,fall to the dark side,bla bla bla.There are two things in the end that are contradictory:

a)The fallen revan fought the mandalorians and crushed them at malachor V (see kotor 1 and 2);

b)The Mandalorians were trained by the sith to fight the republic (see kotor2)(this explains their resistance to the force).

 

+The sith were fighting the republic in kotor 1.So taking in consideration all of this,at least one of the above infos can't be true...

 

 

Just to resume the contradiction:

 

Revan vs Mandalorians

Revan and Mandalorians vs Republic

Revan vs Republic

 

In fact the whole thing about revan,you and mandalorian wars is a big nebula...

 

3)What exactly happened at malachor 5?Bao-dur says he made some sort of weapon that crushed everything (planet gravity).How come all the ships were disabled as well....

 

The real question is what happened at malachor 5?...no-one tells anything for sure...

 

4)What on earth is the mass shadow generator supposed to be?You activate it with the remote,fine,but then what? No-one shows what is exactly...

And no,it ain't that big storm-because that is DISABLED and the msass shadow gen is ENABLED.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, I figure I might as well answer the original topic. I know some of these have been answered already, but I'm going to answer them anyway.

 

1) They were fought by the Mandalorians. According to Canderous, the Sith gave them a challenge that they could not turn down. Most people just assumed that it was refering to Exar Kun, but KOTOR II throws a new light on it. They attacked from 3 'vectors' and started hitting Rim worlds first. I'm not going into detail about the Wars right now... I'm too lazy. :ph34r:

 

2) They were trained AFTER the War, when they were reduced to petty mercenaries. They fought for the Sith, mostly, and would naturally have undergone anti-Jedi training. Revan gave the order to the Exile to detonate Malachor, wiping out much of the Republic Fleet stationed there, which was made up of people that may not have trusted Revan so much.

The Exile formed bonds willy-nilly, so he felt the deaths of so many on a much more personal level. It was almost like dying thousands of times over, I'm sure. That is why they cut themselves off from the Force: to protect themselves. If not, then they would have gone insane and died.

 

3) The Mass Shadow Generator is some form of gravity 'flux' thingy, that wiped out the Mandalorians and most Republic troopers near Malachor. It basically destabilized the planet, as far as I can tell. Probably screwed up the magnetic field.

 

4) I stated what the Mass Shadow Generator is in the previous answer. This is just information picked up from the game, so some pieces may be missing.

 

And about the Sith thingy... The 'True Sith' are different, though nobody can be positive how until Kotor III comes out (LA, if you're reading this: I'm boycotting Star Wars games until Kotor III is for sure in development and we know it won't be rushed :ph34r: ).

 

If I missed a question, lemme know.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That's pretty good. The Mandalorians conquered the Outer Rim worlds first and started to stockpile supplies while the Council tried to "analyze" the threat. After they stocked up they struck in 3 adjacent sectors and probably were dang near unstoppable until Revan joined.

 

I think the true Sith are somewhat like Sidious because, after all, they were the ones who told the Mandalorians to start a war and then that led to another war. The theory I posted before K2 came out was more detailed about their actions.

[The Great Phantom]

Sidious as in plotting, I assume you mean... I think that they may end up being an Army of Killer Nihilus Like Entities... or the ANKLE for short... Hey, I could only find so many acronyms involving the MSG... (That's a chinese food additive, isn't it???)

[Jambo]

I kinda agree with Jedi Master D Murda. The True Sith "tricked" the Mandalorians into going to war with the Republic because they saw that the Republic would be weakened or conquered as a result of the Mandalorian Wars.

[Jedi Master D Murda]

Sidious as in plotting, I assume you mean... I think that they may end up being an Army of Killer Nihilus Like Entities... or the ANKLE for short... Hey, I could only find so many acronyms involving the MSG... (That's a chinese food additive, isn't it???)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No, I don't mean Sidious as in plotting. I mean Sidious as a Sith. I understand that a lot of people here think that the "true sith" are a bunch of Nihilus's but that would be dumb since they care nothing for power and just want to satisfy their hunger, that's not very Sith like. When I think of "true Sith" I think of someone like Palpatine who was not trained by Jedi and then fell but was trained by a Sith and was evil to begin with.

 

I kinda agree with Jedi Master D Murda. The True Sith "tricked" the Mandalorians into going to war with the Republic because they saw that the Republic would be weakened or conquered as a result of the Mandalorian Wars.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yeah, that's the obvious explanation given what Canderous says in K1. If you think about it the Mandalorians were located on the Outer Rim and started their war on the Outer Rim. I'm pretty sure that the "true Sith" contacted them out there to get the ball rolling. My question is did they anticipate Revan finding out about them.

[Dante]

They didn't know Revan. Revan was just a young Jedi who turned out to be a strategic mastermind.

[The Great Phantom]

Sidious as in plotting, I assume you mean... I think that they may end up being an Army of Killer Nihilus Like Entities... or the ANKLE for short... Hey, I could only find so many acronyms involving the MSG... (That's a chinese food additive, isn't it???)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No, I don't mean Sidious as in plotting. I mean Sidious as a Sith. I understand that a lot of people here think that the "true sith" are a bunch of Nihilus's but that would be dumb since they care nothing for power and just want to satisfy their hunger, that's not very Sith like. When I think of "true Sith" I think of someone like Palpatine who was not trained by Jedi and then fell but was trained by a Sith and was evil to begin with.

 

I kinda agree with Jedi Master D Murda. The True Sith "tricked" the Mandalorians into going to war with the Republic because they saw that the Republic would be weakened or conquered as a result of the Mandalorian Wars.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yeah, that's the obvious explanation given what Canderous says in K1. If you think about it the Mandalorians were located on the Outer Rim and started their war on the Outer Rim. I'm pretty sure that the "true Sith" contacted them out there to get the ball rolling. My question is did they anticipate Revan finding out about them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'm going to say one thing. DUH! The Sith's whole goal is power, and their hunger for it! Palpatine wasn't a True Sith, he was part of an order of convoluted Fools that thought the Force was a limited resource, and should only be used by 2 people to preserve it in the Future.

 

As for the Canderous thing: I've already said this, but people NEVER listen to me...

[Jambo]

I kinda agree with Jedi Master D Murda. The True Sith "tricked" the Mandalorians into going to war with the Republic because they saw that the Republic would be weakened or conquered as a result of the Mandalorian Wars.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yeah, that's the obvious explanation given what Canderous says in K1. If you think about it the Mandalorians were located on the Outer Rim and started their war on the Outer Rim. I'm pretty sure that the "true Sith" contacted them out there to get the ball rolling. My question is did they anticipate Revan finding out about them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No, in KotOR 1, there was no hint that the True Sith still existed. Canderous was refering to the Known Sith because how's he supposed to the difference between the two? I imagine there are a few differences in appearance between the Sith that "tricked" them and the Neo-Sith, but Mandalore probably didn't think anything of it. "You know they all look alike." lol.

[The Great Phantom]

He says that the Sith gave the Mandy's a true challenge... The Republic.