What the Jedi masters hoped to accomplish

[dataform]

Well they said that whatever happened the exile would slowly kill life around him/her/it if that's what i heard right. That is a good enough reason in my opinion

[Odinson]

Well they said that whatever happened the exile would slowly kill life around him/her/it if that's what i heard right. That is a good enough reason in my opinion

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I guess they didn't know about Nihilus. He causes death in those around him as well. I guess the council forgot about their actions in the Mandaloian Wars, which is to sit around and wait. They could have joined the Exile, to defeat these Sith Lords, especially the God of Death type that Nihilus is. Jedi never attack first. They don't kill their prisoners. But they are so willing to kill the Exile to preserve themselves and the Force.

 

The Exile doesn't want to kill all life around him. He is not a Darksider. In my opinion, the Council is making the same mistake that Revan did in the Mandaolorian Wars. They are rushing to attack rather than waiting and observing. They are going against their previous wisdom. And in betraying their own ways, they are in turn killed by a betrayer in the form of Kreia/Darth Traya. Just my opinion though.

[Jedi Master D Murda]

In the holo and also in the game is quite clear that the Exile was not exiled because he followed Revan or because he fought on Malachor V committing terrible things...

 

The Exile probably alredy judge himself guilty, but this is another history

 

The council cast the exile away for what he become and for the danger they saw in him.

 

In the holo you discover that there is something else, and speaking about it with varius masters it become more and more clear that was not your partecipation in the war the reson.

The biker jedi master in particular (if i remember right) seem to feel quite guilty for that decision, and Vosh(?) (the female master of Korriban) seemed to not agree with the decision the council made. (sad that she died as i think she said to the exile some very interesting thing... maybe she died for that reason?)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

He was judged because they thought he gave in to the Dark Side which he never did...and they never wanted to hear his words actually.Also he was Exiled because of the CHOICE he made which I can`t see how it contradicts the Jedi Code. They FEAR him and what he represents and as COWARDS they choose to exile him instead of healing him or trying to understand what actually happened to him

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The Council exiles you, sort of, because Zez Kai Ell says that you will affect them and make them change. Maybe he is talking about you not living with the force and this might rub off on them and this is horrific to them because they live their whole lives seeing through the force.

[ROFLTUNASANDWHICH]

pretty sure vandaar died on visas' planet or whatever planet it was when all the jedi met there. a shame, he was the only one with a brain.

[ravlib]

Throughout the game, there are lines about a Jedi's life being sacrifice. Kavaar says something along those lines in the enclave, that they don't fear death if their deaths serve the galaxy.

 

I think they cross a line with regards to the exile, and their decision about the Mandalorian war, in that they're deciding to sacrifice other people, instead of themselves. I think that's the difference in ideology between them and the exile... they're concerned with the ends. The exile just makes the decision he feels is best at a given moment, and if "the future is always in motion" then that's really the best a person can do.

[Reveilled]

Did anyone here read Nineteen Eighty-Four? There was a scene where the protagonist, Winston, is talking about joining the rebel group dedicated to overthrowing the totalitarian government of Oceania. When the representative of the group, O'Brien, tests Winston's dedication to the ideals of the rebels, Winston claims that he would throw acid in a child's face if it would further the goals of the rebels.

 

Later, there is a scene where Winston is captured and O'Brien, who is revealed to be a spy for the government, asks Winston if he feels himself superior to those in government who lie and commit cruelties. When he answers that he does, a recording is played of him promising to O'Brien "to lie, to steal, to forge, to murder...to disseminate venereal diseases, to throw vitriol in a child's face."

 

While O'Brien is the epitome of evil in the book, he makes a fair point. When you do to those you claim to protect the same things you claim you wish to protect them from, how are you any different from the people you claim are your enemies?

 

This is the same situation. Tearing away someone's ability to feel the force is at best like simultaneously blinding and deafening them, at worst like raping them. If one is willing to do that, then one is certainly not "good" by force-user Star Wars standards, and is the sort of person who would go down in Jedi textbooks as the best example of the saying "the path to hell is paved with good intentions".

[Rambutaan]

Yeah, so basically what you're saying is that these so-called Jedi Masters aren't "practising what they preach" . It's sort of like the justification for the death penalty - are you any better off than a murderer if you think like Hammurabi? "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth"?

 

 

The interesting thing about this story is that if we draw parallels to the real world, the Jedi and Sith could be seen as practitioners of religion, a sort of Christianity (Jedi) versus Satanism (the Sith). Both members of these factions have faith and believe in them being either good or evil. However, the Exile is probably one who has LOST faith ALTOGETHER, and is basically, like an atheist. Of course you can't have the powers granted of being with such a faith (divine intervention anyone ?) but you're also immune to its more negative effects. That's probably what the Jedi Council was worried about and thought dangerous, that more people would start becoming Force-atheists and that they would basically have no influence at all on how the Galaxy is run.

[Reveilled]

Yeah, so basically what you're saying is that these so-called Jedi Masters aren't "practising what they preach" . It's sort of like the justification for the death penalty - are you any better off than a murderer if you think like Hammurabi? "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth"?

 

I'm not sure it's so much analogous to the death penalty for a murderer as it is analogous to the death penalty for someone who, while innocent now, might nevertheless at some point commit murder. Less of a killing murderers thing, more of a killing-innocents-while-labouring-under-the-delusion-that-killing-innocents-will-somehow-stop-murderers-from-doing-the-same thing (and that's a long thing). But this isn't really the time nor place for a death penalty debate.

 

The interesting thing about this story is that if we draw parallels to the real world, the Jedi and Sith could be seen as practitioners of religion, a sort of Christianity (Jedi) versus Satanism (the Sith). Both members of these factions have faith and believe in them being either good or evil. However, the Exile is probably one who has LOST faith ALTOGETHER, and is basically, like an atheist. Of course you can't have the powers granted of being with such a faith (divine intervention anyone ?) but you're also immune to its more negative effects. That's probably what the Jedi Council was worried about and thought dangerous, that more people would start becoming Force-atheists and that they would basically have no influence at all on how the Galaxy is run.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

If that is the case, then there was a great opportunity for one of the Masters to say something like "Your lack of faith disturbs me" to the Exile. What a shame!

[ravlib]

Wouldn't be the same without the force choke.

[Objulen]

The Jedi Masters, in many ways, embody the hypocracy that Atton speaks of. I feel that "falling to the light" is a very apt description -- they have become so engrossed by their code that they have lost touch with their humanity, and fail to see the big picture. They consider themselves above normal people, though they don't realize it or believe it themselves, especially Vrook -- he embodies the arrogant, self-rightous, condemnetory Jedi Master.

 

In the end, trying to cut the Exile from the Force is self-defeating, since the Exile's emptyiness is what allows her/him to

best Death Nihilus, devourer of worlds

. Further, as you see with the scenes with Disciple,

the echo that will annhiliate all life in the universe already exists. It is greater than the Exile, and only the Exile has the power to stop it

.

 

So, while the Jedi Masters are superficially justified in what they are trying to do, they lose sight of the big picture. They adheare to a code when it will make that code pointless by staying out of the Mandalorian Wars. In trying to shield others from the revelations of knowledge, they earn the distrust of others. In condemning emotion and passion, they cut themselves off from average people. And thus they fall, with whatever the Exile leaves behind taking their place; a new Sith, really Sith only in name and trappings, different from the True Sith, or a redeemed Jedi order.

[DarthNihilus]

[He was judged because they thought he gave in to the Dark Side which he never did...

Where they say that?

Ig he gave up to DS he was with Revan and never chose to "answer" to council call.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Atris says it ("Surely you can see that he is fallen to the Dark Side" and one of the masters replies "No,I haven`t sensed in him the Dark Side,but a hollow(hole)" - as far as I remember,I don`t have that noted down)

I assume Atris was head of the Council(her custon robe and authoritary words)

At least he is condemned to exile because he sided with Revan and because not answering to Council`s call...

Revan`s decision was the best for the Galaxy...him not answering...not to be blamed either as he finally came...by his FREE WILL..

So my argument still stands...

they fear what they cannot understand and they decide to exile instead of try to understand and heal... which can be seen methaphorically as teh Sith killing the weak instead of help them grow stronger

 

What they do IS NOT Jedi-ish...as in not correlated to their Code....not follow the Code = Dark Side or path to...thus Council Dark Side or going to

 

EDIT:Actually they NEVER tried to understand what caused Revan go to the Mandalorian Wars..they NEVER tried to understand WHAT Revan wanted... and WHY the Mandalorian Wars were necessary...this is ARROGANCE(all they mumbled was "They haven`t followed the Code they need to be judged and punished by Exile or Force stripped")...ARROGANCE is the way to the Dark Side... Serenity I believe is the opposite for arrogance

 

And to respond another thread...more or less teh Jedi Code wants to eliminate all "negative" emotions so what the Masters do is in DIRECT contradiction with the Code they are supposed to follow

[Naso]

Care to elaborate on the disciple scenes for those of us not playing as female please?

[Jedi Master D Murda]

Care to elaborate on the disciple scenes for those of us not playing as female please?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Disciple has studied much about the Jedi and the Sith of the past. When he joins your party he tells you lots of stuff on the EH. For example he tells you that he doesn't think Revan was trying to conquer the galaxy, but unify it. He also tells you that someone is creating echoes in the force (Nihilus) and if it isn't stopped it will destroy all life in the galaxy. Somehow or for some reason Kreia has to mask her presence from the Disciple because they seem to know each other quite well, maybe because she was Revan's master.

[Naso]

Hmmm, thanks!

[Zilod]

Atris says it ("Surely you can see that he is fallen to the Dark Side" and one of the masters replies "No,I haven`t sensed in him the Dark Side,but a hollow(hole)" - as far as I remember,I don`t have that noted down)

I assume Atris was head of the Council(her custon robe and authoritary words)

mmm i don't think she is in lead of the council, she was just a young master and also instead to see more "hate" than autority in her words.

Even other masters are aware of that sometimes and they tell her to calm down.

The other masters tell her that they are not judging Revan, to not blame other masters for Revan and other apprentices fall, to pay attention to her emotions.

 

If i have to chose a leader of that council (if there is any) i think i'l goo with Vrook or the Oderon one, but i have not notice a figure above the others.

 

 

At least he is condemned to exile because he sided with Revan and because not answering to Council`s call...

again i strongly disagree, if you look again at the movie is very clear that is not for this reason, even at the end (if i remember right) they say something that if the exile will not return he will never know why they banished him.

 

Revan`s decision was the best for the Galaxy...him not answering...not to be blamed either as he finally came...by his FREE WILL..

So my argument still stands...

they fear what they cannot understand and they decide to exile instead of try to understand and heal... which can be seen methaphorically as teh Sith killing the weak instead of help them grow stronger

They can exile him for fear, for ignorance, but also for the convinvtion to do the right thing, to protect the code they belived.

This is not an evil act by itself, we can say that is ignorance we can say they are wrong because we know the story, but for them?

Probably they tought to do the best thing both for the jedis and the exile.

 

What they do IS NOT Jedi-ish...as in not correlated to their Code....not follow the Code = Dark Side or path to...thus Council Dark Side or going to

the code is a human construction to sign a path, is not the LS itself, for example Luke is attached by his friends and chose to go to rescue them even if Yoda told him to do not that... a jedi that followed the code probably had chosen to do as Yoda suggested... is Luke DS?

Also i don't see in their action an infraction to the code, they exile what they think is a potential danger for all the jedi, i can't blame them for that.

 

EDIT:Actually they NEVER tried to understand what caused Revan go to the Mandalorian Wars..they NEVER tried to understand WHAT Revan wanted... and WHY the Mandalorian Wars were necessary...this is ARROGANCE(all they mumbled was "They haven`t followed the Code they need to be judged and punished by Exile or Force stripped")...ARROGANCE is the way to the Dark Side... Serenity I believe is the opposite for arrogance

 

And to respond another thread...more or less teh Jedi Code wants to eliminate all "negative" emotions so what the Masters do is in DIRECT contradiction with the Code they are supposed to follow

We say that but we see the story from Revan perspective, we really don't know what had happened if jedis haven't joined the war.

The council was right to show prudence to join the war, they understood that there was something else, way more dangerous behind that, a thing that many jedis that joined the war had not understood...

 

also probably Revan will save the galaxy from the real sith menace, but for now he was quite a disaster.

 

The republic is almost destroyed, with planets that think to leave it (Onderon and Dantooine for example), there are almost no more jedis (and siths), actually the people hate the jedis.

It doesn't seem to me the best situation to face an enemy.

 

If i have to chose between this situation and the ones before the mandalorean wars i think i will go with the second one....

 

It seem to me that Revan was manipulated by the force to achives her owhn goals, as probably will say Kreia, all his plains failed and he had no other choices than to go to fight the real enemies by himself.

[Mondo]

Long live Master Vandar!

[Jedi Master D Murda]

Long live Master Vandar!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

[DarthNihilus]

I was commenting from the "Big Picture" perspective..not based on what the Masters believed at THAT poit...

They say they act based on the "Big Picture",based on the best thing to do in terms of the consequences NOT of only the moment`s importance.

 

They believe they KNOW the right thing to do and can to a some extent to see the future based on certain actions,triggers,acts that echo in the Force. Also that was the reason they haven`t wanted the Mandalorian Wars because THAT war was the trigger for the events that followed(Revan`s fall,Jedis gone to dark side or joined Revan,Malak`s attack on Revan,Revan`s attack on Malak,Malachor 5 destruction,mandalorians`s destruction as a race,teaching through battle for the Jedis). They were both right and wrong:

1.They aare too arrogant to understand WHY Revan did what he did

2.They believe the Jedi Code to be the ULTIMATE and COMPLETE code

3.They believe THEIR wisdom is all that matters

4.They fail to understand WHAT Revan fought for and what REALLY happened

5. result of "4" - they only see that the war brought the Jedi`s extinction,NOT the REAL reason of Revan

6.They FAIL in trying to apply the Code in Exile`s case(instead of trying to show him the light side,or the true consequence of his actions based on what they believe,or try to understand him/what happened to him)

7.result of "6" - they take REVENGE on him(Exile without even telling why AND take his saber)

 

I`ll try to speak to 1st person from a possible Council point of view

 

I have a guy who followed a wrong path before me - I try to redeem him and help him understand what happened to him and also try to understand myself

I have a guy who really believes that he is doing the right thing - I try and show him that he is wrong and show him "the light"(after all forgiving is THE Jedi way)

 

Instead,I agree that I used the technique for stripping one`s Force(not on the Exile but I did),I agree that forgiving won`t happen and I choose to Exile instead of healing,I deliberately put my personal beliefs above the "higher Code" I am supposed to be guarding and applying(as a way of life) as I am a Jedi not a blind mortal

Also what happens there is NOT Jedis speaking...are common folks speaking(which SHOULD NOT happen in a JEDI Council),are folks putting THEIR feelings(which is wrong) above the Code,above the GREATER good. We have a bunch of Jedis in a Council that does not follow the Jedi Code anymore and also they not even try to apply the Jedi Code in a clear case of a "missing sheep from the herd".. that is NOT the Jedi way thus I assume that THAT Council is a corrupt one(with feelings they should NEVER have..not in the Jedi sense,with hatred they should NEVER have-from Code`s way).

 

They only want to punish ALL Jedis that followed Revan instead of heal them or try to show them redemption and the Light Side

 

EDIT:We have a Council that is taking REVENGE above all else. We have a Council that chose REVENGE instead of FORGIVING and HELPING(one understand,one be healed,one see the Light Side,one come back to the "true" teaching(Jedi Code),one made to understand WHY the War was wrong)

[captivus]

Well the Exile IS a wound in the Force that can kill everything that lives so ... I guess I can understand them. I see the "dark council problem" like this :

 

 

 

 

Exile was once a strong in a force Jedi who had a unique skill - he could create special "bonds" with anybody he met - he could feel what they did, he knew what they thought. He did not do it on purpose. He could create such a bond just by talking with somebody.

 

When the mandalore wars began he joined Revan and Malak in their fight. He became one of the Generals of the republic army.

He was the one who ordered to destroy Malachor V - to kill all life on it -humans , aliens , mandalorian and republic sodiers.

 

The Exile was connectet(with force bonds) to most of men on the planet - and he felt their death. In horrible pain he disconnected himselph from the Force - but the death of milions was still inside him - because of the bond he had with each one of them.

 

Exile died. All that remained was but a shell.

 

Force is an energy of life but he had it no longer. He beceame a shell thrown out of the sea - he could hear the distant echo but he could no longer feel the sea.

 

Exile *existed* only thanks to death, he feed on death just like Darth Nihilus. Wherever he went death followed him as. He became stronger with it.

 

Everything bad - wars, fights etc. - that happened in KOTOR 2 was because of the Exile. Every living enemy he killed could not go back to the force - he *stole* their energy and became stronger (that's why he leveled much faster than Revan in KOTOR 1 )

 

 

And with every death the Force was weakaned forever - because of the wound that couldn't be healed. Because the dead could not go back to the circle of life.

 

That's why the council wanted to destroy him (but how they wanted to disconnect him form the Force AGAIN I do not know)

 

 

 

[Solan]

SPOILERS

1. Mandalorian Wars- the Sith have provoked the Mandalorians to attack Republic why? I think that they had known that Jedi Council would be waiting, that war will be reason why the young Jedi wouldn't obey the Council. But they didn't know of Revan, of his strength and intelligence he had destroyed Mandalorians and had fallen to the Dark Side without influance of the Sith and because he was so charismatic many had fallen with him.

 

2. Jedi Civil War- Revan attacked Republic but instead of killing Jedi he ordered to take them alive, because he want to unify galaxy, he saw how weak was Republic without Jedi and he want to repair that, when Revan was leader of Sith armada there wasn't destroyed worlds like Taris or Telos, he wants to conquer and unify not to destroy, but there was Malak who wasn't so strong as Revan, and he tried to kill his master. And what is going on? Council is giving chance of redemption to Revan. Why instead of judgeing him they give him a chance to redeem? Because there was a lot of wise masters as Vandar or Zhar, who have seen much more than the others, they saw that only Revan can stop Malak and they where right.

 

3. The Exile- I think that for the first time one Exile was judge the Council thought that they will need time to understand what was done to him. But on Visas homeworld died most of the masters only masters who was under the influance of master Vrook hadn't go there (master from Korriban wasn't under his influance, but she died). Master Vrook was the most arrogant and ignorrant of all Jedi Masters, he thought that he understand all the ways of the Jedi look how he treated Revan when he arrived on Dantooine, he had never forgiven him that he went for the war and this is reason of how he treated Exile who was Revan's follower, he moved Revans sins on Exile and he hated him because of this. When Revan stand before Vrook had to listen master Vandar and the others, but when Exile stand before Council the second time the Vrook was the oldest and two other masters listened to Vrook's advice and the three remnants of the Old Jedi were killed. I think that this was the critical moment of the history, after that Jedi Order was rebuilt by Brianna and the Exile (I am telling what I think that should happen not what happened) and the Jedi never in the future was afraid to stand and fight for the sake of the Republic.

[Zilod]

Well the Exile IS a wound in the Force that can kill everything that lives so ... I guess I can understand them. I see the "dark council problem" like this :

 

Exile *existed* only thanks to death, he feed on death just like Darth Nihilus. Wherever he went death followed him as. He became stronger with it.

 

Everything bad - wars, fights etc. - that happened in KOTOR 2 was because of the Exile. Every living enemy he killed could not go back to the force - he *stole* their energy and became stronger (that's why he leveled much faster than Revan in KOTOR 1  )

 

 

And with every death the Force was weakaned forever - because of the wound that couldn't be healed. Because the dead could not go back to the circle of life.

 

That's why the council wanted to destroy him (but how they wanted to disconnect him form the Force AGAIN I do not know)

 

i remove the spoiler as it is the spoiler forum eheh

 

the exile is not Nihilus, he was never drained he recided his link witht he force, whitout suffer a drain is not possible to aquire that technique.

[Helton]

The discussion has expanded a little, and I'd like to adress all of the issues, so this is going to be somewhat of an essay.

 

The Code:

 

The code is flawed, as is the current incarnation of the order. As many have said, the Jedi are not allowed to be human. If Atris were to show her love for the Exile she would be shunned by her fellows, and that is why she keeps it inside of her. That love becomes hate. The order, much like the sith, shun those they consider 'weak' rather than help them. This is one of the many causes of fallen Jedi (ex. Atris and Anakin).

 

The Sith and Jedi are often refered to as religions, which is fitting. I prefer to think of them as political parties. As Kreia implies, the Jedi and Sith are labels (Democrat, Republican) as are Light and Dark (Liberal, Conservative). They are not tangible things, and fully embrasing one is in itself ignorance. The strongest, and true Jedi have brushed both sides and found themselves somewhere in between (ex. Revan, Exile, Kreia, Luke). These are the Jedi who keep the order together when it would collapse.

 

The Exile:

 

The exile himself is quite an anomaly to me (and the council, I gather). He turned away from the force... No one in the series has ever turned away from the force. This is different than the average person who is not force sensitive, they still live with it, it governs them. The Exile turned it off. Does that make him a wound? No. Do we not all gain from the people around us? We gain information, we receive favors, that is human nature. The Exile only does this at a much greater pace, but does that mean he is feeding off of them? No. Throughout the game, the Exile can improve his companion's skills as well, they gain just as much from these bonds as the Exile does. Kreia's force bond is symbolic of this, he does not feed off of her, nor vice-versa. He can change those around him, the council feared this, but those around him can also change him. Everything the Exile does, or is accused of doing, each and every one of us does every day. The Exile just excels at it. So, what is the Exile? He is human. Very human.

 

He is not Nihlus. What they do is not the same.

 

The Council:

 

The council stood by during the Mandalorian Wars. The True Sith counted on this. I believe it was Canderus who said "We hadn't counted on Revan." Neither had the True Sith. Pacifism does not work, as is demonstrated on Korriban "Apathy is death." Indeed it was. When they let Revan go off to war without their backing, they doomed themselves that day. Why did they kick the Exile out of the order? As they said, he was no longer a Jedi. They did not strip him of his powers, they simply aknowleged the truth, he was no longer one of them and had no place in the order. The Exile returned and left willingly, they could have done little to force him out, he had become what they could not "He knew war". Kreia tells us many times that it is conflict which makes us strong, the Jedi council knew little of it.

 

Revan's Plan:

 

Pretty clean cut, he returned from the Mandalorian Wars with knowledge. He knew of the True Sith, and he knew the Republic had to be united. How could he unite it when he would face Exile at the council's feat? He had to take it. It was all looking great until his ignorant aprentice became too wrapped up in the Sith teachings (Revan was never truly a Sith, he wanted his followers to know the teachings, not become them). Once Malak was through, Revan's plan had been destroyed, and by the time he remembered about the True Sith, his army was shattered and it's power source destroyed. He took the only option left to him, he went to fight the war himself. What kind of war, however, is not clear. Is the war literal, or is it ideological? Maybe we'll find out next game.

 

The Council's Last Act(Failure):

 

Why, after all that had transpired, after all the hope that had been lost, would the council strip the Exile of his powers? He was not a wound in the force, though the force had wounded him. The Council was in it's dieing throws. They gave the impression that they were not only "Attempting to draw out the Sith" but also "Looking for you". They are under the impression you are a wound, and perhaps this leads them to think you are the one (though perhaps not deliberately) who is slowly killing the last of the Jedi. They are of course wrong. Yoda tells us that the Jedi can be blocked from the force, certain things can be sheilded. When this happens the over-reliant Jedi lose all of their wisdom. The Jedi had not fallen to either side of the force, they were simply blind. Like the Sith they were so reliant on the Force that, when blinded from it, they thrash about, playing guessing games. Even one of the wisest Jedi of all time (Yoda) makes mistakes of incredible proportion when his Force Sight is stripped from him.

 

This is the council, they are dependent on the Force. They are blind. They are fools. They are children playing with lightsabers.

 

This means that no real reason can be deciphered, the Council did what they could, they made the best guess they could. Just like in the new trilogy, however, that just isn't enough.

 

Disclaimer: Though it goes without saying, these are just my opinions. Please excuse all spelling and grammer errors.

[captivus]

I think that the Exile fed on death, each killed enemy made him stronger and that - eventually - would lead to the death of the Force. Don't you remember the words of the council? "You feed on death, it is the only thing that fuels your existance" (or something like that )

 

Exile would kill the force because every time he gained more powet the Force lost it. Every death echoed in him - like the death of Malachor V.

 

The Council didn't want to take his abilities - but they HAD to. To protect the Force and all life.

 

PS.

And I like master Vrook . He is the only one in the coucil that doesn't "rely on the Force" all the time and tries to act logical

[Zilod]

The Exile turned it off. Does that make him a wound? No.

Actually the Exile is an hole in the force, is what makes him a Man, he is probably as "dead" as Nihilus but we agree they are different, if one is a free man the other is totally enslaved by the force and can't satisfy his hunger.

 

The council stood by during the Mandalorian Wars. The True Sith counted on this. I believe it was Canderus who said "We hadn't counted on Revan." Neither had the True Sith. Pacifism does not work, as is demonstrated on Korriban "Apathy is death." Indeed it was. When they let Revan go off to war without their backing, they doomed themselves that day.

There i strongly disagree, in my opinion is more likelly that the real siths counted on a Revan, or anyway that some jedis where changed by the war.

If i remember right is Kreia that speak about that on dantooine, as the jedi fought the mandalorian wars they become more and more "obsessed" by the war itself, they started to hate weakness as the sith do, and in the end they died or turned to be siths.

 

I think this was the plan, they are forcing jedis to partecipate in the war, so they can be corrupted and will turn against their old friend, weaking the order itself, this had happened even if all jedis partecipated the war, not just with dissidents.

 

Considering that probably the best decision is the one of the council, to await and see if the republic have the strenght to face this danger, whitout going too much OT consider all the discussions about the republic stagnant and unchecked.

 

Note that i'm not blaming Revan and other jedis, maybe the jedi where not strong enought to face the true siths, but with what they have done and what happened after that have made the game of the real enemies.

 

Why did they kick the Exile out of the order? As they said, he was no longer a Jedi. They did not strip him of his powers, they simply aknowleged the truth, he was no longer one of them and had no place in the order. The Exile returned and left willingly, they could have done little to force him out, he had become what they could not "He knew war". Kreia tells us many times that it is conflict which makes us strong, the Jedi council knew little of it.

Mostly i agree, but i think they also considered the Exile as a threat, a real threat that can possibly destroy all the order forcing them to leave the force.

He is also a paradox to what they are, a thing they can't really understand.

 

 

Revan's Plan:

 

Pretty clean cut, he returned from the Mandalorian Wars with knowledge. He knew of the True Sith, and he knew the Republic had to be united. How could he unite it when he would face Exile at the council's feat? He had to take it. It was all looking great until his ignorant aprentice became too wrapped up in the Sith teachings (Revan was never truly a Sith, he wanted his followers to know the teachings, not become them). Once Malak was through, Revan's plan had been destroyed, and by the time he remembered about the True Sith, his army was shattered and it's power source destroyed. He took the only option left to him, he went to fight the war himself. What kind of war, however, it not clear. Is the war literal, or is it ideological? Maybe we'll find out next game.

I think is a bit to easy to tell that Revan's plan failed because Malak betrayed him, is Revan that forged Malak, was Revan's decision to turn his soldiers (his apprentice included) to the dark side so they had followed him.

Is his fault if things went that way not Malak one.

 

 

for the other things i mostly agree with your vision, just wanted to point to a thing or two, i think that the jedis where not so fool in their decisions, i can understand their reason and probably the choice to await to enter in the war was not so blind or fool.

I'm not saying that their decision was good and Revan bad, i think both of them made a choice they tought necessary and both of them where probably fooled.

[Helton]

I guess we disagree about the Exile. I am under the strong impression that the council was wrong, he is not a wound or a hole. The Exile forms strong bonds, Kreia is who I believe on this matter, these bonds have nothing to do with the force. He forms these bonds because he is a leader, not because he is a Jedi. The very fact that these bonds all work both ways is a testament that he is not a wound, but rather a leader.

 

To continue: Why would the exile force the council to leave the force? He trains a possible 4 new force sensitives in this game, he breathes life back into the Jedi order rather than destroy it.

 

As for the council not going to war, that was a mistake. They are the defenders of the republic, and when they were finally given a real responsibility, they flinched. They hesitated and caused the deaths of thousands. Vrook would have you think that Revan caused thousands of more to die, I doubt Revan would have felt the need to turn (and turn his allies) had the council been by his side.

 

You are correct about my assessment of Malak. Revan faultered by not predicting his pupil's betrayal. Had Malak not betrayed, or had it been anticipated(and mitigated) the Republic would be united and strong right now, and prepared for the True Sith threat. However, I wasn't so much blaming Malak as just stating what happened. Revan's plan was messed up because of Malak's betrayal. Who's to blame is of little consequence.

 

There i strongly disagree, in my opinion is more likelly that the real siths counted on a Revan, or anyway that some jedis where changed by the war.

If i remember right is Kreia that speak about that on dantooine, as the jedi fought the mandalorian wars they become more and more "obsessed" by the war itself, they started to hate weakness as the sith do, and in the end they died or turned to be siths.

 

Interesting. I must meditate upon this.