What we can do about the state of TSL

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

he said storywise, not gameplay wise.  you gave an explanation gameplay wise.

 

if you just ignore "levels" and "stats" for a minute and just focus on the story, sion would wipe the floor with atton.  think about it, sion has been a sith lord for, how long, atleast 5 years, and a darksider for more.  atton was nothing but a crappy pilot a couple of days ago.  i doubt he mastered the force in a weeks time and able to compete with a sith lord.

 

so storyline wise, atton wouldnt have a shot against sion.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Makes no difference does it. If I wrote the story Atton could pull out a +50 bunny rabbit and it could eat Sion (w00t)

 

This is a game and the game has rules. Disregarding rules just to make the story work is cheesy. I was incensed when I played KOTOR and you get that Malak sequence where you can kill him easily but he runs off with Bastila anyway. SENTINELS CANT BE STUNNED YOU CHEATING LITTLE

[Bulgaroctonus]

What about Jango Fett? We see his head lopped off and rolling aroud on the ground for Boba to pick up.

 

And we also get to see his head-less corpse slump to the ground.....

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

What about Jango Fett?  We see his head lopped off and rolling aroud on the ground for Boba to pick up.

 

And we also get to see his head-less corpse slump to the ground.....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No you see his helmet come off and roll around on the floor. You know his head must be in there but you dont see his head come rolling out of his helmet just to prove the point.

[NeverwinterKnight]

Makes no difference does it. If I wrote the story Atton could pull out a +50 bunny rabbit and it could eat Sion  (w00t)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

sure it does. and youre not the one writing the story, obsidian is. and in their "alternate" ending thats how atton goes down.

 

storywise atton would most definitely get his ass kicked by sion. the story part isnt cheesey, its the gamplay and leveling aspect that is cheesey that would even make it possible for a newly turned jedi to be able to defeat a freakin' sith lord.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

sure it does.  and youre not the one writing the story, obsidian is.  and in their "alternate" ending thats how atton goes down. 

 

storywise atton would most definitely get his ass kicked by sion.  the story part isnt cheesey, its the gamplay and leveling aspect that is cheesey that would even make it possible for a newly turned jedi to be able to defeat a freakin' sith lord.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes but if I were writing a GAME I couldnt do that because unless +50 bunnies exist in the game so it becomes non sensical. Just as non sensical as Sion beating Atton without a fight then you coming along 5 minutes later and kicking the crap out of him.

 

Only if you wanted him to thats the thing about story writting. However game writting is different. The story must reflect the reality of the rules of the game or its nonsense. Why can Malak suddenly stun a sentinel ? Because Bioware couldnt see another way of doing the scene. It's cheap nonsense.

 

Sion can only kill Atton in a game if the game mechanics reflect it and they dont. There is nothing special about your character that allows then to succeed just because of who they are.

 

And in my game for Atton to lose to Sion would have been absolute nonsense. And on the same sort of cheese level as an invulnerable Malak if not worse.

[NeverwinterKnight]

And in my game for Atton to lose to Sion would have been absolute nonsense. And on the same sort of cheese level as an invulnerable Malak if not worse.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

because you keep talking about game balance and character stats. i NEVER argued that from that point of view atton couldnt beat sion. i simply stated that from a STORYLINE point of view, realistically atton couldnt touch sion.

 

and since im more of a stickler for story than game balance, it makes more sense to me that atton would lose to sion since a newbie jedi should NEVER be able to take on a sith lord and win. ever. thats just unrealistic in the star wars universe.

 

heck, luke skywalker was getting his butt handed to him by the emperor until vader stepped in, and luke was "the son of the chosen one", whereas atton is just a nobody.

[Envy]

Okay. Game balance does in no way relate to storyline. I mean, have you ever seen a Jedi Master yelling "NURF TEH SITH!!!" as you pwned him with your "l337 Sith Lord skellz"? Didn't think so. Yes, the bosses were weak. I'm pretty sure even T3 could take Sion on. However, it just doesn't make sense that a newly initated Jedi like Atton would be able to fight Sion, a Sith Lord, on equal terms.

 

As for the cut out ending. I read it, and enjoyed it. It had big consequences, it had a fairly good closure, and it gave a lot more depth to Kreia and the oh so faceless Sion. I'd really like to see it being put in.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

because you keep talking about game balance and character stats.  i NEVER argued that from that point of view atton couldnt beat sion.  i simply stated that from a STORYLINE point of view, realistically atton couldnt touch sion.

 

and since im more of a stickler for story than game balance, it makes more sense to me that atton would lose to sion since a newbie jedi should NEVER be able to take on a sith lord and win.  ever.  thats just unrealistic in the star wars universe.

 

heck, luke skywalker was getting his butt handed to him by the emperor until vader stepped in, and luke was "the son of the chosen one", whereas atton is just a nobody.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Umm well thats because the game story and the game are closely tied together.

 

Why not ? Atton was trained Atton killed Jedi before.

 

The storyline is reflected through the game rules. If Atton is level 25 and has enough firepower to level a small city well that IS Atton as he exists in that world. You cant simply disregard that to tell the story just because you think its a good idea.

 

Your talking about a film , a film is not a game a film is like a book it tells a specific story with no variation. Thats done for dramitic purposes it's not a reflection of anything other than the will of the writer.

 

If that sequence was played out with SW rules then it wouldnt always end the same way. Thats the challenge of writing a game rather than writing a book.

 

Atton isnt a nobody. By that stage he's one of the 10 toughest beings in that part of the Galaxy. Even if he's not a Jedi he's still more than capable of putting all sorts of hurt on them.

 

I took him Mandalore and T3 to Nadds tomb and they swept the "jedi" before them like storm. (precise shot helps imensely as does droid plasma).

 

Let me put it another way. What if your PC just died at the end battle. No fight , just Kreia calling you a failure and crushing the life out of you. Would you have been happy with that as the end of the story? Everything you did to that point was irrelevent to the outcome.

[NeverwinterKnight]

Let me put it another way. What if your PC just died at the end battle. No fight , just Kreia calling you a failure and crushing the life out of you. Would you have been happy with that as the end of the story? Everything you did to that point was irrelevent to the outcome.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

as the numbers guy stated, you are the "main star" of the game, atton is supporting cast. the main guy always somehow squeeks out a victory. you cant compare a death of your own character to the death of a npc party member.

 

but im not going to argue any further because we obviously see it two different ways. you think it makes sense for a just-turned-jedi to be able to defeat a powerful sith lord. i think it doesnt.

[Dehumanizer]

The storyline is reflected through the game rules. If Atton is level 25 and has enough firepower to level a small city well that IS Atton as he exists in that world. You cant simply disregard that to tell the story just because you think its a good idea.

 

<snip>

 

I took him Mandalore and T3 to Nadds tomb and they swept the "jedi" before them like storm. (precise shot helps imensely as does droid plasma).

Sorry, but I can't agree with you. Story is what matters - many fights in the first KOTOR didn't follow the rules, but were scripted as well. Would you want the game to end halfway because Bastila could beat Malak by herself? Apparently, you would. It seems that you didn't pick your signature ironically, that you really prefer these kind of games to be "roll playing" instead of "role playing".

 

KOTOR 2 needs the "correct" ending. It's almost as bad as Lionheart (remember that one?). And the bugs fixed, too - the scripting ones, and the ATI ones, for instance.

[Bulgaroctonus]

What about Jango Fett?  We see his head lopped off and rolling aroud on the ground for Boba to pick up.

 

And we also get to see his head-less corpse slump to the ground.....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No you see his helmet come off and roll around on the floor. You know his head must be in there but you dont see his head come rolling out of his helmet just to prove the point.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

So you are attempting to argue that we don't see Jango Fett be decapitated? If you are, then you are no longer arguing a point, you are arguing for the sake of not being proved wrong.

 

How about Luke in the cave. Vader's head is chopped off, and we do see a face come out of it, to emphasize the point.....

 

Fact is, nothing that isn't in that ending is any more graphic than what we have seen already.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Sorry, but I can't agree with you. Story is what matters - many figths in the first KOTOR didn't follow the rules, but were scripted as well. Would you want the game to end halfway because Bastila could beat Malak by her self? Apparently, you do. It seems that you didn't pick your signature ironically, that you really prefer these kind of games to be "roll playing" instead of "role playing".

 

TLS needs the "correct" ending. It's almost as bad as Lionheart (remember that one?) And the bugs fixed, too - the scripting ones, and the ATI ones, for instance.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Thats just a case of VERY poor design and thought. I mean it took me what 2 seconds to come up with an alternative for the "forced" Atton sequence.

If your not going to take into account what goes on in the game. Then give up and write books. IF Bastila can beat him sure. Remember Chrono Trigger?

Diregarding the fact that Sentinel cant be paralysed just so Malak can escape is oh so cheap and I'm suprised that more people dont see that.

 

Oh thats something I got from the NwN boards just to prove the game was in good hands over there <_<

 

It in no way reflects my personal opinions.

 

TSL would suck royaly with that ending. They may as well have sent it out as book rather than a game. I'd have probably returned it.

You may love the idea that what you have accomplised in the last 30 hours is utterly pointless. I DONT.

[NeverwinterKnight]

TSL would suck royaly with that ending. They may as well have sent it out as book rather than a game. I'd have probably returned it.

You may love the idea that what you have accomplised in the last 30 hours is utterly pointless. I DONT.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

i still dont get how the ending that was cut ruins what you accomplished. if thats your logic, then kotor1s temple battle made everything you accomplished utterly pointless since you are "forced" to kill juhani and jolee if you intend on being darkside.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

So you are attempting to argue that we don't see Jango Fett be decapitated?  If you are, then you are no longer arguing a point, you are arguing for the sake of not being proved wrong.

 

How about Luke in the cave.  Vader's head is chopped off, and we do see a face come out of it, to emphasize the point.....

 

Fact is, nothing that isn't in that ending is any more graphic than what we have seen already.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No I'm saying the rules are different for showing a helmet roll around on the floor rather than a head.

 

Again you dont see a head you see a helmet. It's symbolic. Lopping off someones head is an automatic 15 rating.

 

No there has never been anything that deliberate or that graphic. Ouside of Manhunt anyway.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

i still dont get how the ending that was cut ruins what you accomplished.  if thats your logic, then kotor1s temple battle made everything you accomplished utterly pointless since you are "forced" to kill juhani and jolee if you intend on being darkside.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Your not forced to kill her, you choose to kill her. Presumably she fights back with all the equipment she has and the stats she has to that point in the game.

I wouldnt know first hand I've never felt overly compeled to replay the game.

 

But lets assume she does.

 

That is Juhani as she is reflected by the rules and thus the reality. It's not Juhani just dying because the story teller thinks its a good idea.

 

IF Sion can beat Atton on the same playing field fine. But we all know that any decent Atton will kick Sions arse into the middle of next week.So a forced loss or Atton not making full use of his abilities is unrealistic and cheesey.

[Stargate: 2000]

How about Luke in the cave.  Vader's head is chopped off, and we do see a face come out of it, to emphasize the point.....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Again you dont see a head you see a helmet. It's symbolic. Lopping off someones head is an automatic 15 rating.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You are wrong you do see the face which the last time I checked is part of the head thus meaning we do see the head after it has been cut from the body.

 

Also what do you mean by "automatic 15 rating"? if your talking about an age rating then your a little late to the game because TSL was/is/will always be rated T for TEEN, it says right on the box that its rated teen and thats because of blood and violence.

[Stargate: 2000]

i still dont get how the ending that was cut ruins what you accomplished.  if thats your logic, then kotor1s temple battle made everything you accomplished utterly pointless since you are "forced" to kill juhani and jolee if you intend on being darkside.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Your not forced to kill her, you choose to kill her. Presumably she fights back with all the equipment she has and the stats she has to that point in the game.

I wouldnt know first hand I've never felt overly compeled to replay the game.

 

But lets assume she does.

 

That is Juhani as she is reflected by the rules and thus the reality. It's not Juhani just dying because the story teller thinks its a good idea.

 

IF Sion can beat Atton on the same playing field fine. But we all know that any decent Atton will kick Sions arse into the middle of next week.So a forced loss or Atton not making full use of his abilities is unrealistic and cheesey.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You do realise that even in real life all it takes is one lucky hit to win the battle right, I mean sure Atton would wipe the floor with Sion but the thing is that if Sion got close enough to be able to hit him then its possible he could get in a lucky hit and manage to lop off Attons arm. Even in a computer game one can still get in a lucky shot/slice... hell I have won certain games because of that.

 

But the thing I guess your really missing is that we just want another verion of the game or a patch for the game, its not like your going to forced to go and buy the game agian or forced to download the patch so why do you care about the modified ending that we want since it wont effect you in anyway shape or form sicne you already have your game and it has the ending you happen to like unlike the rest of us in this thread? I could understand if you were going to be forced to upgrade your current game and you didn't want to but since thats never going to happen, whats wrong with us wanting the ending we want?

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

You are wrong you do see the face which the last time I checked is part of the head thus meaning we do see the head after it has been cut from the body.

 

Also what do you mean by "automatic 15 rating"? if your talking about an age rating then your a little late to the game because TSL was/is/will always be rated T for TEEN, it says right on the box that its rated teen and thats because of blood and violence.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You see his face but when he's decapitated its just a helmet. If you had actually wanted to chop off Mark Hamils head (not for real of course) in full view then the rating would have shot up.

 

15 is movie reference dont worry about it.

 

didnt see any blood, must be a blanket catagory.

[Stargate: 2000]

15 is movie reference dont worry about it.

 

didnt see any blood, must be a blanket catagory.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ok thanks for that I was kinda wondering if that was the case

 

There was one spot of blood on

onderon you see it when your looking for the true killer, its on the ground where the body used to be and is mentioned in the text and voice over

 

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

You do realise that even in real life all it takes is one lucky hit to win the battle right, I mean sure Atton would wipe the floor with Sion but the thing is that if Sion got close enough to be able to hit him then its possible he could get in a lucky hit and manage to lop off Attons arm. Even in a computer game one can still get in a lucky shot/slice... hell I have won certain games because of that.

 

But the thing I guess your really missing is that we just want another verion of the game or a patch for the game, its not like your going to forced to go and buy the game agian or forced to download the patch so why do you care about the modified ending that we want since it wont effect you in anyway shape or form sicne you already have your game and it has the ending you happen to like unlike the rest of us in this thread? I could understand if you were going to be forced to upgrade your current game and you didn't want to but since thats never going to happen, whats wrong with us wanting the ending we want?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes I'm also fully aware that the rules dont reflect the realities of actual combat and all that stuff.

 

The reality in KOTOR is reflected by the SW rules that is the only reality that matters.

 

Thing is we are not talking about possibilities. Possibilities are why you have rules in games. Do I hit ? Do I miss it's a possibility of either outcome. What we are talking about the writer ignoring the rules completely just to tell the story they want to tell and that I wont accept any more than I would accept a PnP DM saying although your character has 140 hp's I want it dead for story purposed so your dead next round no matter what you do.

 

Umm since you already know what the end is its not like you need it added to the game anyway. It dosnt have any direct gameplay implications it's just forced storytelling that ignores everything you have done with those characters to that point in time.

 

Obsidian should focus on NwNII and whatever else they are working on learn from whatever caused the problem be it lack of time or an ending that horrified LA.

KOTOR II is a more than worthy game shaky ending or not.

[213374U]

IF Sion can beat Atton on the same playing field fine. But we all know that any decent Atton will kick Sions arse into the middle of next week.So a forced loss or Atton not making full use of his abilities is unrealistic and cheesey.

Feh. That has an easy solution. They just let you control Atton as he faces Sion. Since he can't be killed, eventually, Atton would get owned. IF and only IF Sion used the Force powers and combat feats he's entitled to as a high level Sith lord.

Let's just say he goes around spamming Force Storm, Force Wave, or an almost irresistible Kill. Would you be happy then?

 

The problem is not that Atton is an unstoppable juggernaut, because due to enemy scaling, Sion will be too. The problem is that you are used to absolutely unchallenging combat. Do you really think that if the AI behind Sion used the character to its full potential Atton could beat him? Think again.

[Stargate: 2000]

Umm since you already know what the end is its not like you need it added to the game anyway. It dosnt have any direct gameplay implications it's just forced storytelling that ignores everything you have done with those characters to that point in time.

 

Obsidian should focus on NwNII and whatever else they are working on learn from whatever caused the problem be it lack of time or an ending that horrified LA.

KOTOR II is a more than worthy game shaky ending or not.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Your right I do know the ending but from a gamming stand point I will more than likely play this game a lot before I give up on it (hell I played KOTOR some 60+ times before TSL came out) and I would like to have an ending that makes sense rather than the current ending. I guess it simply boils down to the fact that up to that point in the game I was completly enthralled with the game but once you hit telos for the second time it all goes to hell and even trying as hard as I could to loose myself back into the game I just couldn't because it totally and utterly broke the suspension of disbelief that comes with gamming. I realise that the chances of OE or LA making the proper ending (the ending OE wanted) are slim to none but any chance is better than none. Hell if they didn't want to do it why not just release the frams (saying the ending was programed before D-day) to the mods so they can fix the game. But for OE to forget about TSL would be a mistake since a lot of people and the press aren't happy with the ending as is.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Feh. That has an easy solution. They just let you control Atton as he faces Sion. Since he can't be killed, eventually, Atton would get owned. IF and only IF Sion used the Force powers and combat feats he's entitled to as a high level Sith lord.

Let's just say he goes around spamming Force Storm, Force Wave, or an almost irresistible Kill. Would you be happy then?

 

The problem is not that Atton is an unstoppable juggernaut, because due to enemy scaling, Sion will be too. The problem is that you are used to absolutely unchallenging combat. Do you really think that if the AI behind Sion used the character to its full potential Atton could beat him? Think again.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Then the question then becomes could YOU beat Sion. Because unless you gimp Atton your not that much tougher than him with the same gear.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Your right I do know the ending but from a gamming stand point I will more than likely play this game a lot before I give up on it (hell I played KOTOR some 60+ times before TSL came out) and I would like to have an ending that makes sense rather than the current ending. I guess it simply boils down to the fact that up to that point in the game I was completly enthralled with the game but once you hit telos for the second time it all goes to hell and even trying as hard as I could to loose myself back into the game I just couldn't because it totally and utterly broke the suspension of disbelief that comes with gamming. I realise that the chances of OE or LA making the proper ending (the ending OE wanted) are slim to none but any chance is better than none. Hell if they didn't want to do it why not just release the frams (saying the ending was programed before D-day) to the mods so they can fix the game. But for OE to forget about TSL would be a mistake since a lot of people and the press aren't happy with the ending as is.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Umm if thats not an exageration you might want some other hobbies..

 

From the characters perspective there is no sense of disbelief. Except perhaps when you leave the academy and in theory Mira should be there but isnt.

 

Bioware handled the ending to HotU rather well. And it's similiar in some ways.

 

The end boss would try to manipulate your companions into doubting themselves and thus fight against you. You could pursuade them he was talking crap in which case they would fight on your side.

 

Except for Deekin of course. Deekin would always tell the boss to get stuffed

 

That would have made a perfect ending and one that wasnt forced (forgive the pun)

[213374U]

Then the question then becomes could YOU beat Sion.  Because unless you gimp Atton your not that much tougher than him with the same gear.

Yep. With that, I must agree, to a point at least. You have a certain advantage over Atton, and that's that all of your levels are Jedi levels. But it doesn't matter because at that level, combat never lasts more than three rounds. Either you die, or they do. I think the devs realized this a bit too late, and gimped the AI so you don't have to be constantly reloading. That's what happens when you stretch the ruleset too much.