When KOTOR was created, was the TSL story in mind?

[Tyrell]

When KOTOR was in production under Bioware way back when, did they have the Sith Lords story in mind?

 

What I mean is....when Bioware was creating KOTOR, were they thinking about some aspects of what the sequel could be like? Was the exile in mind? What about Kreia? Did they want the sequel to be based heavily on the Mandalorian War? But in the end handed the sequel over to Obsidian cause they were too focused on Jade Empire.

 

Do you think that EVERYTHING TSL was that of result of Obsidian or did Bioware have some play in it as well. I mean we all know that Obsidian created the story themselves but it is possible that some ideas and aspects of the story could be things that Bioware had in mind. Bioware gave Obsidian everything else like sound engine, graphics engine and other gameplay tools. So it could be possible that Bioware gave Obsidian some storyline elements. It could have went like this:

 

Bioware "I know that you are doing the story yourself but there is some things that we had in mind that we'll like for you all to use. Nothing major, but just some nick nacks here and there"

 

Obsidian "Okay cool, just send them over to us and we'll see what we can do. We'll somehow incorporate your ideas into our overall story."

 

What do you all think?

[NeverwinterKnight]

i think everything was obsidians.

[mastromanos]

If I remember correctly Lucas art and Bioware gave a few basic ellements for the story to be buid upon. For example the protagonist would start as a jedi class, would NOT be amnesiac e.t.c. purelly basic stuff really. If Bioware had a sequel in mind they would have made KotOR more openended in my opinion.

[Meshugger]

If I remember correctly Lucas art and Bioware gave a few basic ellements for the story to be buid upon. For example the protagonist would start as a jedi class, would NOT be amnesiac e.t.c. purelly basic stuff really. If Bioware had a sequel in mind they would have made KotOR more openended in my opinion.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yep, agreed.

[jaguars4ever]

KotOR may well have left the door open for a sequel, but it was a self-contained story in it's own right - just like Spider Man, X-Men, The Matrix, the LotR's movies and the OT.

 

With TSL however, I get the impression that they tried too hard to force a cliff-hanger; so we're left with an aprupt and unsatifying conclusion, which requires the 'sequel' for closure on the story, ala Kill Bill Vol. I. <_<

[NeverwinterKnight]

With TSL however, I get the impression that they tried too hard to force a cliff-hanger; so we're left with an aprupt and unsatifying conclusion, which requires the 'sequel' for closure on the story, ala Kill Bill Vol. I.  <_<

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

i think what makes kotor2s cliffhanger worse is that it included

revans destiny

in it as well. i think if it were just a cliffhanger about the exile, it might be irksome, but somewhat forgiveable. but when you combine the two it just screams for closure.

[jaguars4ever]

i think what makes kotor2s cliffhanger worse is that it included

revans destiny

in it as well.  i think if it were just a cliffhanger about the exile, it might be irksome, but somewhat forgiveable.  but when you combine the two it just screams for closure.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Spot on, Knight.

[Muad'Dib]

And of course the main problem with leaving the ending in TSL like that is that because of the very high levels both Revan and Exile were when the games ended, it is extremely ifficult to make them the protagonists of the third game and actually give these stories proper closure.

 

Having a new PC going off to look for both Revan and the Exile, finishing their quests for them and having those original character's stories get some kind of closure presented from a third rate outside perspective is bad storytelling as far as I am concerned.

 

Which is why I keep wandering why Obsidian chose to create a cliffhanger ending when it sabotaged its own protagonist from returning to finish the story in the following game.

 

I remember an interview with Chris Avellone earlier on where they asked him why he chose to do TSL without Revan as the protagonist. His response was something like: I think it's cool the my character is off doing things that I'm not seeing at the moment, then he said something about how we would later see that character again to learn about what it was that he/she was doing in another adventure. This leads me to believe that (At least initially) there was a plan for Revan to return as the protagonist in the third one. But since I think I recall this interview was made before the XBox release, perhaps those plans for KotOR 3 (Should there be any) might have changed.

 

But like Knight said, K2's ending is problematic precisely for the reason he gave. Which just makes me wish KotOR 3 just would have EnderWiggin's idea of dual interconnected campaigns, one with Revan and one with Exile. Course all that d20 stuff throws a wrench into that though.

[Ace]

It's clear from KOTOR1 that there is a rough overall story arc for the series. Canderous mentions the Sith Empire hiding in their borders, the Jedi Council seeing "the true threat" etc.

 

KOTOR2 seems to not truly advance the plot forward, but fill in the details. You see the results of Revan's war, more information on his past and motives, and then you're told where exactly s/he went.

 

Having a cliffhanger ending when it's unlikely that the sequel will directly follow the Exile does seem pointless to me.

[Jedi Master D Murda]

I think Kotor was made to stand independently but thoughts of a sequel swirled around I'm sure.

 

I think Bioware told Obsidian some things that could have been expanded on or Obsidian felt there were some things to be expanded on.

[NeverwinterKnight]

if there are no plans for a kotor3, or if the plans dont include the "closure" that we all (or atleast those who have voiced it in this thread) want, then im even more disappointed that they even bothered mentioning revan in kotor2. i was perfectly fine with his story being over after kotor1 since kotor1 did a relatively good job of wrapping up his story. but now...it feels like kotor2 not only left kotor2s characters story up in the air, but also went back and undid everything i accomplished in kotor1.

 

thats probably a bit of an exaggeration, but on some levels thats how it feels, especially if a)there is no kotor3, b)if kotor3 has a brand new protagonist or c)doesnt deal with "closure" of the first two protagonist.

[Tyrell]

I believe that Obsidian was trying to do like what George Lucas does with the OT/PT. In A New Hope/The Phantom Menace it is like KOTOR, it introduces the characters and the basic plot. And they all end with a ceremony or gathering. ANH ended with the celebration on Yavin and TPM ended with the ceremony on Naboo. KOTOR ended with the ceremony on the Unknown World (Both DS and LS).

 

With Empire Strikes Back and Attack of the Clones they all ended on cliffhangers, MAKING you want to see what happens next. In ESB you find out the Vader is Lukes Father, Han is captured, and Luke is defeated. The movie ends with Luke and Leia heading somewhere out in space getting ready to save Han. Not really a cliff hanger but it makes you crave for more. Same with Attack of the Clones. It ends with Dooku escaping, the Clone Wars beginning, and Padme/Anakin getting married then BAM! It ends. Again not a cliff hanger but it makes you crave for more. With TSL the same goes. It ends with the knowing where Revan really went, it left us knowing that there is ANOTHER Sith Empire out there. It ends with you going out into far space searching for Revan/This Sith Empire then again BAM! It ends, making you crave for more.

 

With KOTOR 3 (I know there will be one) it would go the same route ROTS/ROTJ goes. ROTS ends with the PT being complete, the Republic is dead, the Empire is born, and the Jedi are gone, thus ending the PT. ROTJ ends with the completition of the OT. The Empire is dead, the republic is back and so are the Jedi. KOTOR 3 would be the exact same.

[NeverwinterKnight]

With KOTOR 3 (I know there will be one) it would go the same route ROTS/ROTJ goes. ROTS ends with the PT being complete, the Republic is dead, the Empire is born, and the Jedi are gone, thus ending the PT. ROTJ ends with the completition of the OT. The Empire is dead, the republic is back and so are the Jedi. KOTOR 3 would be the exact same.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

that all assumes that not only will kotor3 be made, but that the story will be a closure for the revan and exile character.

 

my worry is that it wont and that we will have a third protagonist and that the stories will all be a jumbled mess with no closure.

[Tyrell]

Honestly I don't think that by having a 3rd Protagonist is a bad idea. KOTOR was the story of Revan, TSL was the story of the Exile. TSL ends with the exile seeking out Revan and the True Sith. Part 3 could take place right after TSL with a new person coming in. This person could be a former Jedi who left the order after the Jedi Civil War. Not another exile, but a person who just left on his own will. He could regain his connection to the force, and seek out Revan/Exile. Somewhere in the beginning of the game like in TSL, through dialog you can decide the gender and Force alignment of Revan and the Exile.

[NeverwinterKnight]

Honestly I don't think that by having a 3rd Protagonist is a bad idea. KOTOR was the story of Revan, TSL was the story of the Exile. TSL ends with the exile seeking out Revan and the True Sith. Part 3 could take place right after TSL with a new person coming in. This person could be a former Jedi who left the order after the Jedi Civil War. Not another exile, but a person who just left on his own will. He could regain his connection to the force, and seek out Revan/Exile. Somewhere in the beginning of the game like in TSL, through dialog you can decide the gender and Force alignment of Revan and the Exile.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

but that begins to get ridiculous. each subsequent game has a jedi that was mysteriously absent the previous game, but yet powerful enough to suddenly appear and follow his predecessors? then if they have kotor4, the new guy goes off in search of revan, the exile and the kotor3 pc? then in kotor5 the new guy goes off in search of revan, the exile, kotor3 pc, and kotor4 pc? rinse and repeat. that would be, imo, lame story telling.

 

if they wanted a different protagonist for each installment, then they shouldnt leave anything open ended and/or not include the previous antagonist in the story.

[Laozi]

Ya I really feel they have written themselves into a corner and are once again going to have to rely on the mystique of being a jedi again to sell the next game. I think the biggest problem is that these games are as carefully planed as th E.U. is and if you've read any of that then you know what an amalgamation of rampant crap that is

[DSLuke]

A new character would compicate things even more.

 

They should stick with Revan and the Exile.(plus the other NPCs, from KOTOR 1&2 plus new)

[TentamusDarkblade]

i don't get why folks stubbornly believe that KOTOR3 will only work if it uses Revan or the Exile. WHY?? They've played their parts, they're done. They, as playable characters, have run their course.

[DSLuke]

i don't get why folks stubbornly believe that KOTOR3 will only work if it uses Revan or the Exile. WHY??  They've played their parts, they're done. They, as playable characters, have run their course.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

They haven't played their parts.

 

if what people that finnished KOTOR 2 says it is true, then Revan and the Exile have just started to face their true destinies.

[Tyrell]

Honestly I don't think that by having a 3rd Protagonist is a bad idea. KOTOR was the story of Revan, TSL was the story of the Exile. TSL ends with the exile seeking out Revan and the True Sith. Part 3 could take place right after TSL with a new person coming in. This person could be a former Jedi who left the order after the Jedi Civil War. Not another exile, but a person who just left on his own will. He could regain his connection to the force, and seek out Revan/Exile. Somewhere in the beginning of the game like in TSL, through dialog you can decide the gender and Force alignment of Revan and the Exile.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

but that begins to get ridiculous. each subsequent game has a jedi that was mysteriously absent the previous game, but yet powerful enough to suddenly appear and follow his predecessors? then if they have kotor4, the new guy goes off in search of revan, the exile and the kotor3 pc? then in kotor5 the new guy goes off in search of revan, the exile, kotor3 pc, and kotor4 pc? rinse and repeat. that would be, imo, lame story telling.

 

if they wanted a different protagonist for each installment, then they shouldnt leave anything open ended and/or not include the previous antagonist in the story.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

No, there would be no KOTOR 4 or KOTOR 5. It would end as a trilogy at KOTOR3.

 

So really in the end the Trilogy was one huge story that was told from the perspective of 3 people. Revan, The Exile, and the KOTOR3 PC.

 

If there would be other KOTOR games after part 3, it would start from a different era with new characters, story, and location. And having NOTHING to do with the previous 3.

[NeverwinterKnight]

i don't get why folks stubbornly believe that KOTOR3 will only work if it uses Revan or the Exile. WHY??  They've played their parts, they're done. They, as playable characters, have run their course.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

after kotor2s ending, i dont believe they have.

 

had they chosen not to do it that way and just not even mention revan in kotor2, then i agree that a new protagonist would work just fine. but when you leave a story as wide open as that one with multiple clues as to what we "might" see in a future game, they need closure.

 

i mean, it would be like empire strikes backs ending happening, where luke and leia are aboard that medical frigate and chewie and lando go after han. then return of the jedi doesnt mention luke, leia, lando or chewie, and suddenly has some guy named johnny spacejumper showing up out of nowhere and being the one to a)rescue han and b)confront vader and the emperor.

 

No, there would be no KOTOR 4 or KOTOR 5. It would end as a trilogy at KOTOR3.

 

So really in the end the Trilogy was one huge story that was told from the perspective of 3 people. Revan, The Exile, and the KOTOR3 PC.

 

If there would be other KOTOR games after part 3, it would start from a different era with new characters, story, and location. And having NOTHING to do with the previous 3.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

you missed my point (or atleast your answer didnt have anything to do with what i was trying to say). im saying that the current trilogy (if thats what it is) needs closure and adding yet another protagonist makes little sense, as i reasoned above.

[Laozi]

If its a good idea or not I'm sure that Kotor 3 will have a new NPC.

[Muad'Dib]

Honestly I don't think that by having a 3rd Protagonist is a bad idea. KOTOR was the story of Revan, TSL was the story of the Exile. TSL ends with the exile seeking out Revan and the True Sith. Part 3 could take place right after TSL with a new person coming in. This person could be a former Jedi who left the order after the Jedi Civil War. Not another exile, but a person who just left on his own will. He could regain his connection to the force, and seek out Revan/Exile. Somewhere in the beginning of the game like in TSL, through dialog you can decide the gender and Force alignment of Revan and the Exile.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No offense but that is a terrible idea. Having a new PC come in in KotOR 3 to go off and look for Revan and the Exile is just lousy storytelling. I mean imagine if Luke had just gone off in search of Vader after ANH, then whoever was looking for Luke goes off looking for Luke in ESB and then a 3rd idiot comes up looking for Luke and the second guy in RotJ. Sequels are all about continuity, between the the stories and their characters, and evry time you change this it's not a continuation but merely something loosely related to the original.

 

I agree with Knight, K1 gave Revan and the Malak's War closure. K2 would have gone perfectly without problems at all had Revan not even been mentioned as it is pretty unassociated with K1, save for the 2 dumb droids. But no they pulled Revan back in for a "mention", and this mention completely destroys the previous closure of K1, but then did the Exile find Revan at the end how I was hoping so that the issue could be resolved and Revan's story again could be ended properlly? Nope. They did even worse and just left Exile up in the air also. So nothing is finished, these characters are still on their journeys and you are suggesting yet another new guy come in from nowhere and finish their journeys for them? Have them as a stupid npc cameo for a conversation or two and then have guy 3 finish their job for them? Sorry I would truly hate that. I mean from a story standpoint, not discussing the whole d20 level cap issue ordeal.

 

K3 has to finish the Exile's story as it is the most open and unfinished, while Revan is also unfinished you can say the torch was passed to Exile because Revan had actual closure in K1, and Revan can appear as a support role in K3 and get closure thorugh the development of the story. Course for it to be really a good ending and connecting all 3 games together as an actual trilogy K3 should have both Revan and Exile as protagonist, each experiencing their respective journeys and achieving closure for their stories, interconnected with each others tales of course, that way K1 is the beginning of Revan's tale, K2 was for Exile and K3 brings both together and ends both arcs and the overall storyline as it should. With a new PC you can't do that, then K4 will be what some fourth Jedi reject looking for Revan, Exile and the third guy like Knight said? Seriously, just finish Revan and Exile's stories and move on with K4 to a different timeframe with all new characters, unrelated to these 3 (Potential) games, that's the right way to do it.

 

@TentamusDarkblade - From a gameplay stance you are right, Revan and Exile ending in level 300 each certainly means they are unusable in the d20 thing. But from a storyline standpoint their journeys are far from finished and have yet much to tell, the True Sith, the fates of them and their crews, everything is up in the air right now. And having 3rd guy come in and just pick up where Revan and Exile left off is really unimaginative, uncreative and repetative nonesense. Revan had closure, yet they chose to screw with that in K2, now Exile also is off looking for Revan and continuing the quest begun in K2, how do you suppose the story was finished? Or is your interpretation of a conclusion defined by the level the character ends at as opposed to where the story is left off before the credit roll?

 

In any case both you and Tyrell are right, the devs will more than likely just make yet another PC Padawan just so they don't need to come up with a way to reuse the old ones and you can start at level 1 again. This is precisely why I hate cliffhanger endings, especially in an RPG. Sorry about the long post and no offense to either you Tentamus or Tyrell just my two cents.

[DSLuke]

Maybe you could use the droids for the initial levels or a new NPC character until you reach level 10 or something, then you meet Revan and the Exile and they join your party.

 

This would require the game to be bigger, plus if you had no jedi class until you meet Revan and the Exile could make the game interesting and hard in a new way.

[Plano Skywalker]

As much as I like the idea of a totally open-ended identity for the protagonist (including what planet he/she was born on, etc), I now agree that the protagonist for KOTOR III *should* be Revan or the Exile.

 

In fact, the more I think about it, the more I think the protagonist should be the Exile (either LS or DS) and that Revan joins your party late in the game and otherwise gets alot of cutscreens, etc and still very important to the story.

 

Here's the thing: Revan is a "cannonical character" in the EU. The Exile is not. So, if Revan is not the protagonist, then the continuity folks at LA can do their homework and come up with a really cool ending that ties in perfectly with the official continuity. In other words, Revan is important no matter what.

 

But, at this point, the only way for the Exile to be important is for him to be the protagonist

and having a Kreia Force Ghost would work nicely as well for storyline continuity...hopefully, her F Ghost would be less preachy than the living Kreia

.

 

Think of Revan as Darth Vader and the Exile as Luke. The ESB and ROTJ belong to both Luke and Vader and both could be considered protagonists (depending on perspective). But a third protagonist would be problematic. I think the same thing is at work here. Let's finish Revan's story and also give the Exile the importance he deserves.

 

Then, KOTOR IV (I don't mind the name KOTOR IV as long as it is a new story) can have the totally open-ended approach for the PC including allowing the PC to be a non-human or even a non-Force user.

 

OK, the only real drawback to this is the unrealistic prospect of having Exile at level 1. So what? the advantages outweigh the disadvantages.

 

 

Plano