Who's doing the talking?

Mercer · February 16, 2004

I'd like to start a discussion about "voice" in all it's literal and metaphorical meanings in videogames.

What is the best form for characters to interact with the player and for the player to interact with them? What should we hear? What should we read? What should we choose? What should we just sit back and watch?

Personally, I get sick of reading dull, directed at generic good/evil hero, character dialogue text. And I enjoy the generic good/evil "choice" of what I "say" even less. I prefer to have a choice over direction and decisions in general, and not have to read 3 boring lines for responses to everyone I have the misfortune to have to "talk" to.

I find in my playing that story and dialogue, the joy of role-playing, are often swallowed up in a desire to let the player play whatever he or she wants. Playing whatever you want is great for a game, but when the game tries to be a great story too, as all rpgs should be, the story and interactions all loose their flare because the main character has no personality.

Yes, let me play the main character, let me decide what he/she is, let me decide how he/she fights, but please, for the sake of the story; you decide WHO he/she is, and what their personality is, and let the dialogue be rich and fun and ALL voiced over. Let me look forward to talking to other characters by rewarding me with something entertaining, not punishing me with something tedious and making me dread it.

What does everyone else out there think? I'm sure many see my point of view as too cinematic or not even an rpg at all, and I take it from the BG games that most of the Obsidian team does not agree with me. If that is the case, why? And what do you think the perfect way is?

JJ86 · February 16, 2004

Exactly, because in most RPGs you reach a point where the designer didn't include the variation for the specific PC type. I prefer text over voice because a believable voice is more difficult and memory intensive for the engine. The technology just isn't there right now. Text interaction is good but I'd like to see something that isn't canned (i.e. picking an answer from a list.). Chatbots are interesting uses of technology and would be cool to see in a game. A favorite chatbot can be found at http://www.a-i.com/ . Try Alan or HAL. This would be an interesting way to interact with NPCs. If you entered the specifics of your character at the game's beginning and it kept track of your current appearance , it could add a very interesting dimension. Imagine conversing with chatbots with personality that responded to your specific character!

FrankK · February 16, 2004

I am a big VO fan. The problem with VO is $$$. You must hire GOOD VO talent (the VO in DA2 is among the best I've ever seen or worked with) and that talent costs X dollars per day. Recording 100,000 lines of dialogue costs a lot of money. What's worse, you may have to cut or add certain lines during the course of the game's development. Dave did a great job on DA2 of 'scaling' the VO so that if certain areas had to be cut, the dialogues would still make sense (alternate stuff was recorded, etc). Dave also went up to LA when they did the VO and oversaw the recording, so the actors had someone on hand to explain the characters. The end result speaks for itself (rather than shipping a script to Siberia and getting canned VO back).

You really need to have your dialogues finalized before you can VO and often times, VO is just expensive. However, I will say that just hearing the sound of someone talking adds a whole lot to a game, even if I'm actually reading the text and cutting off the VO.

JJ86 · February 16, 2004

However, I will say that just hearing the sound of someone talking adds a whole lot to a game, even if I'm actually reading the text and cutting off the VO.

But only if its done well by a good voice actor. In JA2 I grew sick of hearing the same lines over and over when the NPCs were tired or just bitching.

Karzak · February 16, 2004

I often turn off game sound and listen to music as I play.

~Di · February 16, 2004

Nothing grates my nerves more than really bad VO. Nothing immerses me in the experience and takes me into the game world more quickly than really good VO.

I think VO should be used judiciously, for emphasis, for specific character enrichment, at turning points in the story, but certainly not for every process, lest the game grow tedious (with clicking the ESC key every time you go to a chatterbox Blacksmith to buy arrows, for example) and the tech requirements soar beyond the reach of the average computer.

Most top-quality games have had excellent VO, in proper proportions for me personally... BG games, PS:T, KotOR (which actually had a bit too much, because I found myself hitting the ESC key often to zip past boring character speeches I'd heard too many times before), and yeah, JA2. I'd rather see developers save the cost of total VO for all lines of text, and put an additional 10-20 hours of gameplay in!

Aaron Contreras · February 16, 2004

Yes, let me play the main character, let me decide what he/she is, let me decide how he/she fights, but please, for the sake of the story; you decide WHO he/she is, and what their personality is, and let the dialogue be rich and fun and ALL voiced over. Let me look forward to talking to other characters by rewarding me with something entertaining, not punishing me with something tedious and making me dread it.

Word.

I thought Final Fantasy X had a far more satisfying story than Knights of the Old Republic. KotOR - in terms of writing talent and quality of the plot outline - should have taken first place. What put FFX on top was the defined characters compared to the generic conversation options of KotOR.

As a player I am very sick of:

1. [Nice guy option.]

2. [selfish money-grubbing option.]

3. [i'm so evil option.]

4. [Wacky option.]

5. [Low-intelligence option.]

6. [Critical Path/Cut to the chase option.]

Torment managed to include the best of both worlds - the PC had lifetimes of juicy backstory, but that handy amnesia plot device allowed players to determine who exactly he was.

Ultimately, I think it really depends on what sort of game you want to develop. Temple of Elemental Evil and Icewind Dale benefitted from having generic conversation options. These games were light on story and tried to push replayability with different party combinations and alignments. KotOR should really have had less generic conversation options - the only real story difference between KotOR characters is what alignment you pick.

Gromnir · February 17, 2004

why does your character have to be the main character? make your character incidental to story that way it not so much matter if you is good or bad or insane or stupid.

HA! Good Fun!

poolofpoo · February 17, 2004

As a player I am very sick of:
1. [Nice guy option.]

2. [selfish money-grubbing option.]

3. [i'm so evil option.]

4. [Wacky option.]

5. [Low-intelligence option.]

6. [Critical Path/Cut to the chase option.]

Yeah me too, let's leave out all options.

poolofpoo · February 17, 2004

Nothing grates my nerves more than really bad VO.

the only thing that got on my nerves more that Aribeths VO in NWN was that some tool (probably volourn) kept insisting it was great.

you see I could turn off the sound in NWN but I just couldn't make Voulorn shut the *** up

Volourn · February 17, 2004

No, no you can't.

Unit-Qz52 · February 17, 2004

One of my favorite NPC characters in an RPG wouldn't be half as menacing or entertaining if it wasn't for the amazing voice work he received.

I am all for NPC's of importance receiving the bulk of the funds for VO. I have to disagree with the orginal poster asking for main characters to have VO, unless the character options are few, and the story is very linear. A character with a rich history and background and has his own personality lend themselves to VO and that is fine. If I am playing a character that has no history and his future is dictated by my actions, I don't need to hear his voice.

I am more interested in the NPC's voices than my own. They are the ones that need to pass themselves off as feeling alive, and immersing me into their world.

I have to comment on this as well from Aaron:

"I thought Final Fantasy X had a far more satisfying story than Knights of the Old Republic. KotOR - in terms of writing talent and quality of the plot outline - should have taken first place. What put FFX on top was the defined characters compared to the generic conversation options of KotOR."

Final Fantasy X is a game where because of the voice acting and script, I had to quit playing. There came a moment in the game where Tidus and Yuna were talking and I literally had to refrain from throwing the controller at them. This is more of an issue with the dialogue than the voice though. Ug those pointless conversations...

Mercer · February 17, 2004

Thanks for all the responses guys! and especially to Frank for taking the time to talk with us.

Let me respond to some of the ideas that piqued my interest the most.

from Aaron:

As a player I am very sick of:
1. [Nice guy option.]2. [selfish money-grubbing option.]

3. [i'm so evil option.]

4. [Wacky option.]

5. [Low-intelligence option.]

6. [Critical Path/Cut to the chase option.]

Aaron, you sooo know my pain. This single thing keeps me from being able to enjoy NWN, ever playing it again, or from buying any expansions for it. And as much as I enjoy the game mechanics of the infinity engine, I can

Tigranes · February 17, 2004

Allow me to enter chaos and throw more stuff into the discussion.

Aaron, you sooo know my pain. This single thing keeps me from being able to enjoy NWN, ever playing it again, or from buying any expansions for it. And as much as I enjoy the game mechanics of the infinity engine, I can

Mercer · February 17, 2004

One of my favorite NPC characters in an RPG wouldn't be half as menacing or entertaining if it wasn't for the amazing voice work he received.

I am all for NPC's of importance receiving the bulk of the funds for VO. I have to disagree with the orginal poster asking for main characters to have VO, unless the character options are few, and the story is very linear. A character with a rich history and background and has his own personality lend themselves to VO and that is fine. If I am playing a character that has no history and his future is dictated by my actions, I don't need to hear his voice.

I am more interested in the NPC's voices than my own. They are the ones that need to pass themselves off as feeling alive, and immersing me into their world.

your "unless"es were actually an intregral part of my opinion. Glad to know you don't actually disagree with me

By the way, your avatar rocks!

Final Fantasy X is a game where because of the voice acting and script, I had to quit playing. There came a moment in the game where Tidus and Yuna were talking and I literally had to refrain from throwing the controller at them. This is more of an issue with the dialogue than the voice though. Ug those pointless conversations...

I rest my case about how good it would be if NA talent wrote it. Trust me man, most of those converstations are actually very important from a Japanese perspective. Study Japanese for a while and even when you play games in English that are from Japan, they will make more sense. Stuff that still doesn't make sense, mark up to translation, lots of things just don't translate well. Most Japanese game writers are very very talented men...and yes, they are only men.

Karzak · February 17, 2004

Badly done voice over is bad.

Good voiceover simply doesn't exist in games.

Most of the time the dialog isn't worth the cost of paying someone to say it, who wants to listen to campy predictable crap.

MP3's while playing is still the best option.

Tigranes · February 17, 2004

Depends on what mp3s. Are Irenicus' lines better than a lot of trashy songs?

Karzak · February 17, 2004

Depends on what mp3s. Are Irenicus' lines better than a lot of trashy songs?

I hated irenicus, a mad ex elf mage that invented a machine that sucks bhallyspawn souls?

Please, he was a POS character and the best parts of BG2 were completely jon free.

Mercer · February 17, 2004

Badly done voice over is bad.

Good voiceover simply doesn't exist in games.

Most of the time the dialog isn't worth the cost of paying someone to say it, who wants to listen to campy predictable crap.

MP3's while playing is still the best option.

All I can say is that I hope to personally prove you wrong someday, and I hope you don't miss it cause you were listening to mp3s .

MaliceMalicious · February 17, 2004

I'd have to say that voice over is probably the second-least important aspect of games, as far as what needs improvement. Frankly, I'd like an innovative story line and likeable/believable/sympathetic characters with nothing but text. Gads, read a book! No voice-overs there!

I have given up on RPGs almost entirely because, after looking at the box art for 30 seconds, I know who all the main characters are, and who the bad guy is, and which of the characters will betray me...I'm not sure how time travel will come in, but after about 5 minutes of game play, I'll have a pretty good idea.

Now, admittedly, the Blood Omen and Soul Reaver games are nothing without their Voice Overs, but they are action and puzzle games, NOT RPGs! The story is set in stone. Kain is a condescending ass. Razael is a self-righteous boob, and no matter what we make them do, they will remain such.

Anyway, next to "dazzling" us with "mind-blowing" special effects and "gorgeous" cutscenes, RPGs need voice-over help least of all. Ye gods, please! No more playing a 60 hour game to watch a 30 minute CG movie that, at best...is "Spirits Within" *shudder*

Tigranes · February 17, 2004

I hated irenicus, a mad ex elf mage that invented a machine that sucks bhallyspawn souls?

Yet can you deny that his voiceovers were done excellently? If you dont like his dialogue, could you recognise that his voiceovers *for* the, in your opinion, crappy, dialogue, were great? And if you dont even like the voice talent... pfeh, we just dont agree, do we.

I realise that the acclaim for Irenicus and his voiceovers are of course opinionated, but how else can you judge voiceover talent? Let me speak without examples then - some voiceovers in games are downright excellent as judged by most.

Drakon · February 17, 2004

I cannot be caged, I cannot be controlled... :ph34r:

I liked the voice overs in Arcanum.

Ellester · February 17, 2004

I agree with Di, I would much rather have more gameplay than more VO. Even though I like good VO, balancing issues, story, combat system, roleplaying options, etc.. all have more importance. VO is just eye (or ear) candy. Although, I

~Di · February 17, 2004

From ~Di:
I'd rather see developers save the cost of total VO for all lines of text, and put an additional 10-20 hours of gameplay in!

I can't think of a statement of the top of my head that I disagree with more.

When it comes to games, A. Hamilton is just plain wrong. "Quantity has a quality in itself" is just not true. There are just too many other games out there, and I'm not hurting for things to do anyway. I'd much much much much rather play a great game for 40 hours (or even 3 hours) than a mediocre one for 60 (or, heaven help me, 100s of hours).

Would you rather watch a 4 hour crappy movie than a 30 minute one that blows you away? Which would you buy?

Well, you're presuming that the only difference between a great game and a mediocre one is VO. That's plain silly. VO cannot turn a mediocre game great, no matter how talented the actors may be.

As I've said, outstanding VO can immerse me in a game, bond me emotionally with the experience, and add immeasurably to my enjoyment. Bad VO can make my teeth ache.

However, your position, if I understand it correctly, is that you wish every single line of text VO'd. My knowledge of game production costs may be minimal, but my finance background tells me that the cost of such a feat would be enormous, and would necessarily require severe corner-cutting elsewhere, corners I'd personally prefer not be cut. If I want to experience womb-to-tomb spoken dialogue, I'll watch a movie. KotOR was the only game with near-total VO that I've played, and as wonderful as the game was the time-consuming VO's for characters that did not matter added little or nothing to the game itself for me.

I believe BG2 was the perfect marriage of magnificent VO talent on the characters in the game that truly mattered, and gave the game life. That was a game of extraordinary length and depth, in my opinion. As for which movie I'd watch, a bad long one or a good short one, may I simply say that a game is not a movie, but I'll bite anyway. I prefer a good movie. And I prefer a good long movie to a good short movie. When it comes to games, I feel let down and cheated when I see end credits roll after 10 hours of play time. Sorry, I just do. And if that 10 hours consisted of 6 hours of listening to spoken dialogue, and 4 hours of actual game play, then the game is for me a loser and the developer should make movies instead. IMHO, of course! :ph34r:

Pax · February 17, 2004

It seems as though the amount of VO in a game must be balanced with the amount it contributes. You have to determine how much money you can spend to get the point across and not sacrifice any valuable game features. I mean, the money spent to have the barwench in the non-essential area tell you the daily specials would be much better spent on some extra character art or something, right? VO is a luxury, and it's a luxury that most American CRPGs can't really afford.

That said, I do find VOs to be greatly appreciated. Kerghan in Arcanum, the Transcendant one in PS:T, Horrigan in F2... hmm, I seem to like bosses with VO... but these are neato. I don't ever need to hear my own guy's voice, because, really I have the opposite opinion from Mercer.

I prefer generic dialogue to canned-character-speaking, because I enjoy creating my own character and experiencing the game world through him or her. When the dialogue is generic enough, I can add my own voice (it's a lot like reading a book, I'd say), and have the voice in my head read the line however I want. I can interpet a generic line with whatever tone I desire.

That said, I'm not excusing crappily done dialogue, or overly generic dialogue. I'm not always as witty as the character I'd like to be playing, so boring dialogue is the suck, but some tongue in cheek options, ala the Nameless One or Fallout Guy are appreciated.

It seems to be preference though. Some enjoy making the character their own, and some enjoy being told a story from Avatar to Ze Bad Guy. I like my characters.

-Pax

Who's doing the talking?

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