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Combat System in KOTOR 1/2


mEtaLL1x

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First of all, I want to say that I really enjoyed KOTOR 1 (haven't played 2 yet). The world, ambience of Star Wars is depicted flawlessly, and the role-play is great, alignment and stuff.

 

BUt one thing I just found a little out of place there.. It's the combat system. I really feel that DnD-like system, with pseudo-TB is just doesn't fit in that kind of game (IMHO). There is no feel... I mean, when I fight lightsaber-style, it's like I can't really feel it...

 

Probably, it's because prior to KOTOR I played Jedi Academy/Outcast. And you know? I think that if KOTOR used similar combat system as does Jedi Academy, it would be the perfect SW game. I mean, those RPG elements are great, but when combined with the real feel of lightsaber duels and Force usage.... it's even greater. THe Powers.. There was nothin like using Force to grab a whole platoon of sith troopers and hurl them into the abyss.....

 

But, well, I think that BioWare and Obsidian considered this kind of system, but I understand why it didn't do the trick: it's the party. It's kinda hard to make control over party and to make them act right when it's action-combat.

 

No, don't think that I'm just bitching at BioWare/Obsidian and stuff, I really love them and their game! But I'm just expressing what I feel.

 

Perhaps, someone will agree? What do you prefer?

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disagree completely. the combat controls in jedi academy is more twitch gaming and pretty much has nothing to do with a characters stats or abilities, but more to do with the gamers ability to mash buttons.

 

the only rpg i can think of that tried to do this kind of combat was vampire: the masquerade bloodlines, and most people felt that the combat aspect, because it incorporated "twitch" gaming, was clunky and unsatisfactory.

 

no offense, but what you described would be a terrible addition to the kotor (or any other rpgs) series.

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First of all, I want to say that I really enjoyed KOTOR 1 (haven't played 2 yet). The world, ambience of Star Wars is depicted flawlessly, and the role-play is great, alignment and stuff.

 

BUt one thing I just found a little out of place there.. It's the combat system. I really feel that DnD-like system, with pseudo-TB is just doesn't fit in that kind of game (IMHO). There is no feel... I mean, when I fight  lightsaber-style, it's like I can't really feel it...

 

Probably, it's because prior to KOTOR I played Jedi Academy/Outcast.  And you know? I think that if KOTOR used similar combat system as does Jedi Academy, it would be the perfect SW game. I mean, those RPG elements are great, but when combined with the real feel of lightsaber duels and Force usage.... it's even greater. THe Powers.. There was nothin like using Force to grab a whole platoon of sith troopers and hurl them into the abyss.....

 

But, well, I think that BioWare and Obsidian considered this kind of system, but  I understand why it didn't do the trick: it's the party. It's kinda hard to make control over party and to make them act right when it's action-combat.

 

No, don't think that I'm just bitching at BioWare/Obsidian and stuff, I really love them and their game! But I'm just expressing what I feel.

 

Perhaps, someone will agree? What do you prefer?

I'm sure glad you're not an RPG game developer. biggrin.gif

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Kotor 1 had too much action and too little brains in it's combat :(

“He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein

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I would say that kotor has to little controll in its combat. For me the problem isn't that its to actionsbased.

I think either a more direct control action based system based on the characters stats or a slower more tactical system would work but i dont realy prefere one over the other....

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I really liked the combat in Outcast and Academy as well, but combat in a RPG shouldn't be like combat in an action game. How effective a fighter you are in a RPG is determined by your stats and feats, not your hand eye coordination, and frankly that's part of the fun for me.

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Hrr.... I don't get it, why do you all (well, some of you) think that RPG is bound to have statistic-based combat???

 

Do you know what are the most important RPG components?? It's story, dialogs and atmosphere! Everything else is optional.

As long those things are intact, the game may be called real RPG.

 

For example Deus Ex: it's RPG. None can argue that. But the combat? First-person, action. Relies on your coordination, reflexes. Why not? Plus, it relies on char skills, of course.

Another example: Gothic. A very good Action/RPG. And it's RPG, just different in terms of player-perspective and combat. But it's still RPG.

And Oblivion will be action-based combat (unlike idiotic combat in Morrowind).

 

So I just fail to recognize the problem here.

 

Alright, some of you probably thought that I'm an action-fan and stuff. Well, guess what? I'm a hardcore fan of PnP DnD also! And its computer-based counterparts.

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i can only answer for me, but one of the reasons i enjoy rpgs more than any other genre is because combat, more often than not, relies on my characters stats and abilities rather than my own ability to press the x button at the right time, or push up with the joystick while pressing down on the y button.

 

i hate twitch gaming. many games i enjoyed for the first part started to annoy me when id reach a level that required a bunch of random clicks of the button and movement of the joystick to complete. it frustrated me to no end when id be stuck at one part of a game, not because i couldnt solve a puzzle or because combat was too hard, per se, but because my fingers just werent fast enough to do the required button mashing.

 

thus the beauty of crpgs. its more about my strategy in combat and how well ive built up my character that determines my success rather than my ability to press x, y, x, z, y, y, z, y, x within a split second.

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Probably, it's because prior to KOTOR I played Jedi Academy/Outcast.  And you know? I think that if KOTOR used similar combat system as does Jedi Academy, it would be the perfect SW game. I mean, those RPG elements are great, but when combined with the real feel of lightsaber duels and Force usage.... it's even greater. THe Powers.. There was nothin like using Force to grab a whole platoon of sith troopers and hurl them into the abyss.....

Yeah, bunny hopping and rolling around your enemy while hurling your mighty attacks at the air before you in hopes that your enemy will be foolish enough to put himself in the path of your blade is so much better. I mean, when is Lucas going to have a real saber fight like that in the movies? :blink:

- When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast.

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Yeah, bunny hopping and rolling around your enemy while hurling your mighty attacks at the air before you in hopes that your enemy will be foolish enough to put himself in the path of your blade is so much better. I mean, when is Lucas going to have a real saber fight like that in the movies? :rolleyes:

haha thats my fighting style in every twitch game i play! since i suck at most twitch games, i just mash the buttons hoping for the best. its become quite the artform. i believe lucasarts wants to incorporate my random button mashing as lightsaber form number 8, called the crazy gecko.

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There are many games like that.

 

Fable, Sudeki, Tales of Symphonia to name but a few. Jade Empire also looks very actiony and hands on too.

 

A lot of people who like RPGs have a morbid fear of anything that requires any sort of skill. I was just reading an interesting post on another forum from a guy saying he liked RPGS because they didnt require much effort..

 

Although I dont really have anything against more hands on systems I dont think it would work so well in KOTOR because the characters play very differently and switching between the different combat types would be quite jarring.

 

Although I got used to it in Sudeki, so anything is possible.

I have to agree with Volourn.  Bioware is pretty much dead now.  Deals like this kills development studios.

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Yeah I agree you couldn't just change the controls in KOTOR as it is now ... it would require a substantialy improved companion AI where you could give your buddys more detailed instructions on how to act in combat as general parameters...

But I don't think it would be imposibe if it was considered a priority and given the time it would need.

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KOTOR would be great if lightsaber attacks were restricted to 1 / round, had a decreased chance to hit, but... did outragoues damage with the opportunity to chop off limbs, either randomly or as a called shot. Lethal attacks should cut your enemy into two pieces. Blaster deflection and defensive powers should remain as they are now. Possibly also expand the use of defense moves.

 

Maybe some of this is in KOTOR2?

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Probably, it's because prior to KOTOR I played Jedi Academy/Outcast.  And you know? I think that if KOTOR used similar combat system as does Jedi Academy, it would be the perfect SW game. I mean, those RPG elements are great, but when combined with the real feel of lightsaber duels and Force usage.... it's even greater. THe Powers.. There was nothin like using Force to grab a whole platoon of sith troopers and hurl them into the abyss.....

Yeah, bunny hopping and rolling around your enemy while hurling your mighty attacks at the air before you in hopes that your enemy will be foolish enough to put himself in the path of your blade is so much better. I mean, when is Lucas going to have a real saber fight like that in the movies? :thumbsup:

 

 

heh, I was like that in the beginning, but the Jedi Knight Games actually do require skills other than rolling around like mad and swinging like crazy.

 

The single saber style is the best, and if you practice you'll find yourself switching between the three styles for defense and offense while timing your attacks just when the enemy leaves himself open for attack. It's pretty satisfying when the game goes into slowmo just as you deliver the killing blow.

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...

A lot of people who like RPGs have a morbid fear of anything that requires any sort of skill. I was just reading an interesting post on another forum from a guy saying he liked RPGS because they didnt require much effort..

...

 

Motor skill and reflexes, mental skills is another subject.

 

With is a good point, if I am roleplaying someone who is agile I sould not be agile and fast on pressing the buttons to use his abilities.

 

I am not looking foward to a future were in you need fast reflexes to play solitarie ...

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I am not looking foward to a future were in you need fast reflexes to play solitarie ...

Have you ever played "Archon" (an old EA game by Westfall/Freeman) ? :)

 

For those who don't know it, it's a chess game where the pieces fight it out in real time, the winner of the battle keeps the square.

“He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein

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Motor skill and reflexes, mental skills is another subject.

 

With is a good point, if I am roleplaying someone who is agile I sould not be agile and fast on pressing the buttons to use his abilities.

 

 

Only different in your mind.

 

There are many ways to refelct that in gameplay and still keeping it hands on. Easier than reflecting differences in inteligence.

I have to agree with Volourn.  Bioware is pretty much dead now.  Deals like this kills development studios.

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heh, I was like that in the beginning, but the Jedi Knight Games actually do require skills other than rolling around like mad and swinging like crazy.

 

The single saber style is the best, and if you practice you'll find yourself switching between the three styles for defense and offense while timing your attacks just when the enemy leaves himself open for attack. It's pretty satisfying when the game goes into slowmo just as you deliver the killing blow.

Funny when people try to give you advice about a game you have already mastered to the degree of becoming sick of it. I played Jedi Outcast since it came out until Jedi Academy was released, and only quit playing that one less than a year ago. Been in some clans, played with the best. So I know what I'm talking about. Turtling, bunny (force) jumping and latency are the keys to victory in that game, at least in the MP portion. The SP part is such a pushover once you start playing online.

 

Been there, done that, got the scars. :(

 

[/bragging]

- When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast.

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The single saber style is the best, and if you practice you'll find yourself switching between the three styles for defense and offense while timing your attacks just when the enemy leaves himself open for attack. It's pretty satisfying when the game goes into slowmo just as you deliver the killing blow.

That's what I'm saying. Outkast was a bit lame, but Academy is not dumb, as many people seem to believe.

 

 

KOTOR would be great if lightsaber attacks were restricted to 1 / round, had a decreased chance to hit, but... did outragoues damage with the opportunity to chop off limbs, either randomly or as a called shot.

This is where action-based combat is WAY better (for KOTOR). I bet Oblivion will be very good at it: to combine various skills and perks with your reflexes - it's just great.

 

 

A lot of people who like RPGs have a morbid fear of anything that requires any sort of skill.

LOL. I'm not one of them.

 

 

People, I just feel that action-based (with skills) combat is more fitting for StarWars setting (again, MHO).

For DnD CPRGs - no way. I really hate those Dark Alliences and the like.... they are not RPGs at all anyway....

I just can't imagine BG2 as action-based, or as KOTOR... I would be very disappointed if it was either way.

 

But for StarWars... it's different... I don't know, but I still want to see something like Academy combat in KOTOR2....

But more deeper in terms of stats.

Why do you differentiate stats and action so much? It can be combined just fine.

Again, refer to Deus Ex, future-Oblivion (in one interview it was said that it would be action-based combat, and skills will be very important also) and others.

The more skill you have, the more combos/styles you can use. That's pretty simple and genius.

 

And once again, I'm a fan of turn-based rpgs (i'm a member of Fallout-modding group, btw), and DnD! But I just like to think free in terms of game design and not grip to one style.

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The only way to have a game feature saber fights with that unique SW flavor is through pre scripted sequences of moves. If you give the player complete control over the combat, the result is as lame as in JO/JA. Due to the extremely fast nature of fencing, not everyone can do it. And it gets even better when you have to do it through a keyboard or gamepad.

 

No, KotOR combat is OK as it is, fix the dumb AI and everything will be fine.

- When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast.

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I'm with you metall1x. I want the huge deep story and slow experience gain that you get in KOTOR, but I want to chop some arms and legs off with a lightsaber too. If someone could just combine Ninja Gaiden's combat with everything else KOTOR, I'd be happy as a clam. That's why I'm soooo looking forward to Jade Empire. From what I've read, it looks to have that complex deep world, but also you get to fight. And I mean really fight.

 

I hear what you guys are saying about the strategy, but after a few hours in, my combat strategy is pretty much set for the game. I'd like to see more challenges to change strategies as the game goes on. Not finished with KOTOR 2, but in one, the only real combat challenge I had was beating Malak.

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I'd like to see more challenges to change strategies as the game goes on.

That has nothing to do with turning the game into a beat-'em-up. The AI in KotOR is a joke. From what I've been reading, it's even worse for K2. Fix the AI, make it a credible opponent. But a dumb AI is just as unchallenging in an action game as it is in a RPG.

 

KotOR is not meant to be a lightsaber fencing simulator. Combining stat-driven RPG-ish combat and twitch gaming in a satisfactory manner is next to impossible. If you want that, then KotOR is not the game for you. You want a Jedi Academy in which you can choose your dialogue options.

- When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast.

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Played JK, JK:O and JK:A I have to agree ... saber duels are a matter of luck in JK:O and JK:A and not skill.

 

JKA was marketed as a FIRST PERSON SHOOTER WITH FORCE.

 

I play it like that, I enjoy it very much. Lightsaber = melee weapon. How many times in Quake or UTx do you actually use the hammer/gauntlet/shieldgun?

 

JKA is by far the fastest FPS I have ever played, except maybe painkiller. The force powers give that extra tactical boost over vanilla FPS' like Call of duty, Quake, UT2k4, etc.

 

You can strafe jump in JKA like quake, which adds another strategic element to the game.

 

The nice balance between guns/force/saber in JKA is what the game is about. ALL of the guns (yes, even the disruptor) requires leading; the projectiles travel very slow compared to other fps', and when you mount this up with the fact that people in JKA move 5 times as fast as in any other game (force speed, rage etc), nailing a shot really requires good coordination and teamwork. (Pull, fire, roll, wallwalk-flip, fire, etc.) Plus, the easier-to-aim weapons with the fastest projectile speed(blaster, xbow, repeater/fletchette prim fire, disruptor beam) can all be blocked by the saber. The weapon that does the most damage (rocket launcher) is also the weapon that requires the largest amount of leading and can easily be blocked with push.

 

Saber dueling in JKA may suck, but mix it up with guns and force and you have a very, very, very tactical shooter.

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