Magic System Discussion

[kirottu]

I like both systems. I

[Kaftan Barlast]

Volo, when will you learn how to use the quote function? Its very practical, you know..

 

 

 

 

 

 

When I get to do my own CRPG the rules wont be rules but huge chunks of completely incomprehensible physics and mathematics

 

 

"Oh, a Rod of Modifying the average airspeed of an unladen swallow by 3 degrees on a logarithmic curve? Might come in handy.."

[J.E. Sawyer]

Yeah, that's most likely because your oppostion (*ie. either the players or DM) were stupid enough to let you get away with such strategy. You mean your enemies didn't chase you down? That just seems silly.

Yeah, it's really silly when a wizard turns invisible across a river a hundred feet away and his enemies spend the next few rounds trying to figure out if he and his cronies are heading in for an attack or dispersing. It's called a psych-out, Volourn. Not a complex idea.

 

Just off the top of my head you can also do the following which your d does cover but way more than just a handful

 

a) minor globe of invulnerbility

Yeah, a third level spell to counter a first level spell -- that's efficient. Also, replicates the effect that I already covered.

 

b) spell resistance through natural ability (very rare for PCs unless the camapiagn allows for drow), spells, or items (also should be extremely rare

Extraordinarily rare.

 

c) interrupt the caster

You're describing a rarely-successful counter to long-range spells as a viable counter to magic missile, a long-range spell? Oh, okay.

 

No, it's still a handful. Throwing out general resistances to magic, especially ones that are infrequently used, is ridiculous. Why don't you write down "encasing yourself in lead, so you can't be targeted"?

 

Why? The area should give a hint. If you are in the middle of a dungeon you should always be ready to start casting and swiing,

I can't even remember the last time any of my D&D groups went into a dungeon. In my games, they spend about 90% of their time in cities, forests, and doing general overland travel.

 

if youa re in town; you *usually* are safe so you don't have to worry about it as much.

I'd say towns are the worst places, because it's so easy to get ambushed in them, especially if magic is being employed by the attackers.

 

If youa re travelling long distances, most things won't be able to sneak up on you simly since it's much easier to see far in the distance giving you time to prepare.

Not all overland travel takes place in savannahs and deserts.

 

Only at night are you in any type of jeopary of being surprised but that should be even limited if prepared with guards, dfensive spells like alarm

Alarm has a much smaller AoE than magic missile -- and a lot of spells, really -- has range.

 

Only with teleporting /invisible wizard or sneaky thieves should you even worry then. An unprepared group will have more things to worry about than a simple magic missle.

In my experience, one-third to one-half of all D&D battles involve one side being unprepared. You can say it's the PCs or the NPCs, but it's a very common event -- you frequently don't have time to sit back and prepare buffs and protection spells. And if Team A does, chances are high that Team B certainly does not.

 

I'm not saying magic missle is useless. It's very useful. But, it's not the be all end all of spells.

No one in this thread has tried to say it was. What people have repeatedly stated was that it's an unerring attack that's does more damage than a dagger at long range at first level. Can you counter a dagger with stoneskin? Yeah, sure, just as you can counter a two-handed sword with stoneskin or a fist with dimension door. There are very few specific counters to magic missile and in my DMing and playing experience, it is rare that the spell is blocked/prevented.

 

Now, are the things you're talking about things that you've actually seen used a lot? Or are you just theorizing that they could be used often to block magic missile?

 

I see. You see magic as just a simple replacement of weapons and other "real" thigs.

Conversations with you would be a lot less inane if you stopped putting words in peoples' mouths. You do this constantly.

 

I see it different. It should be special, i think. It should go beyond the usual into the abnormal; but also not be so freeform that a wizard can cast with impunity which is whre spell slots have their strengths as well as spell components and xp penalty for some spells as well. I don't want a wizard to be basically be someone who weilds a magic missle like some common dagger. That is just plain boring to me, and ruins the whole point of magic being wonderous.

That's a really great rant against something I never suggested. I suggested taking the exact same list of spells in the PHB and dropping them in power by the equivalent of one or two levels and allowing wizards to cast more of them, and more often. Given the same overall body of tools, how does this suddenly make magic less wondrous?

 

Ars Magica allows magi to cast spells a lot. To me, its magic sure as hell feels a lot more wondrous than D&D's. Not because it's powerful, not because it's rare, but because the casters get to use their powers a lot and in many different ways. In my opinion, freedom and mutability make magic feel wondrous. As a player, I feel like I have many choices that I can switch up on a moment to moment basis. Unless you're very high level, even D&D sorcerers don't have that ability.

[Volourn]

"Volo, when will you learn how to use the quote function? Its very practical, you know.."

 

One does not need to learn something they already know how to do. I simply find it quicker, and easier to do this. Plus, the whining and flames (not by you; but by others) just makes it more enjoyable.

 

 

"Alarm has a much smaller AoE than magic missile -- and a lot of spells, really -- has range."

 

Of course, at night, magic missle's effectiveness is lessened due to the fact you can only target what you can see and darkness tends to put a damper on that - even dwarves have darkvision of 60' only; not exactly as long range as a normal magic missle.

 

 

"I'd say towns are the worst places, because it's so easy to get ambushed in them, especially if magic is being employed by the attackers."

 

Sure; but like I said, such lethal combat isn't that much of a common occurance in towns.

 

 

"In my experience, one-third to one-half of all D&D battles involve one side being unprepared. "

 

Really? I'd say no more than 1/3; but meh.

 

 

"Now, are the things you're talking about things that you've actually seen used a lot? Or are you just theorizing that they could be used often to block magic missile?"

 

Often enough to be considered as solid ways to deal with the spell. The problem is that you make it seem like magic missle is some type of super spell that has a habit of completely turning the tide of battle. I have almost never seen that occur. It's a useful spell. Nothing more or less. The only reasons why it's so popular is because it's 'auto hit', and does decent damage the higher you are. Certainly not because it'll break the backs of your enemies.

 

 

"if you stopped putting words in peoples' mouths. You do this constantly."

 

Maybe I am; maybe I'm not. However, youdid say you prefer to have a magic missle type spell that can basically do the sama damage a dagger does only and repeatedly more or less. When the words fit no need to deny it is my motto. Not to mention, I'm not the only one with this habit.

 

 

"Conversations with you would be a lot less inane"

 

If it's so horrible to converse with me you cna always stop doing so. I'll survive. I'm sure you will to. No worries for me.

 

 

"That's a really great rant against something I never suggested. I suggested taking the exact same list of spells in the PHB and dropping them in power by the equivalent of one or two levels and allowing wizards to cast more of them, and more often. Given the same overall body of tools, how does this suddenly make magic less wondrous?"

 

Yeah, make spells lower in level. I see. Because we all know that magic missle is the equal of fireball. Neato. And, while we're at it, let's allow people to spam fireball as often as they do magic awesome. Yup, that's so cool.

 

 

"Ars Magica allows magi to cast spells a lot. To me, its magic sure as hell feels a lot more wondrous than D&D's. Not because it's powerful, not because it's rare, but because the casters get to use their powers a lot and in many different ways. In my opinion, freedom and mutability make magic feel wondrous. As a player, I feel like I have many choices that I can switch up on a moment to moment basis. Unless you're very high level, even D&D sorcerers don't have that ability."

 

Agreed. Being able to cast spells numerous times repeatedly makes magic more special indeed. Espicially since D&D doens't exactly have some super low limit of how much you can cast. It just doens't allow you to spam magic repeatedly.

 

Ah well. To each own.

 

Have fun.

[Expresso]

J.E. Sawyer, I'm curious, how much did you had influence over the IWD2 magic system (spell selection etc.) and spell interface?

[kirottu]

"That's a really great rant against something I never suggested. I suggested taking the exact same list of spells in the PHB and dropping them in power by the equivalent of one or two levels and allowing wizards to cast more of them, and more often. Given the same overall body of tools, how does this suddenly make magic less wondrous?"

 

Yeah, make spells lower in level. I see. Because we all know that magic missle is the equal of fireball. Neato. And, while we're at it, let's allow people to spam fireball as often as they do magic awesome. Yup, that's so cool.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Sorry for butting in, but well you read that part wrong(and I have nothing better to do ). Or did I misunderstood? I tought sawyer ment that in mana system spells power not level should be dropped. So first level mage would not get fireball at level one as you suggested and when he gets it it would not do as much damage as a normal fireball.

 

Oh well, back to playing hentai games... Uh, I didn

[Volourn]

"dropping them in power by the equivalent of one or two levels"

 

Hmm.. Maybe. So, he means make fireball the equivalant of a 1st level spell in terms of power. Hmm.. That seems to be as bad. Let's make a fireball spells that does what then to make it the equal of magic missle? Hmm.. Hmm.. Hmm...

[J.E. Sawyer]

"Alarm has a much smaller AoE than magic missile -- and a lot of spells, really -- has range."

 

Of course, at night, magic missle's effectiveness is lessened due to the fact you can only target what you can see and darkness tends to put a damper on that - even dwarves have darkvision of 60' only; not exactly as long range as a normal magic missle.

How many adventuring companies a) travel under cover of total darkness or b) camp with no fire whatsoever?

 

Sure; but like I said, such lethal combat isn't that much of a common occurance in towns.

In my experience, it's a very common event.

 

"Now, are the things you're talking about things that you've actually seen used a lot? Or are you just theorizing that they could be used often to block magic missile?"

 

The problem is that you make it seem like magic missle is some type of super spell that has a habit of completely turning the tide of battle..

Quote something I stated that implied this.

 

Maybe I am; maybe I'm not. However, youdid say you prefer to have a magic missle type spell that can basically do the sama damage a dagger does only and repeatedly more or less. When the words fit no need to deny it is my motto.

Well, when the person tells you that the conclusion you reached from their statement is incorrect. That is, when you were audacious enough to tell me what I believed and I told you were incorrect, maybe it's time to re-evaluate how you reach conclusions from available information.

 

Not to mention, I'm not the only one with this habit.

So what? You're doing it right now.

 

If it's so horrible to converse with me you cna always stop doing so. I'll survive. I'm sure you will to. No worries for me.

You also do this a lot. Why do you converse with people? Do you do it to learn, do you do it to "win", or do you do it for some other purpose? I'm trying to figure out what your goals are from how you carry on these conversations. In my limited observation, it seems to follow a similar pattern:

 

* Statement of opinion, often with the disclaimer of "Period."

* Period of somewhat even debate

* You erect strawmen, building up and tearing down arguments that other people didn't make.

* You get called on this behavior and tell the person they are free to not converse with you.

 

Do you think you'd ever like to see a discussion through to its conclusion? Do you actually think it's beneficial to a discussion to construct arguments from another person's statements that the individual did not, and would not, state on their own? How is that helpful to you or the other person? What is your goal?

 

Yeah, make spells lower in level. I see. Because we all know that magic missle is the equal of fireball. Neato. And, while we're at it, let's allow people to spam fireball as often as they do magic awesome. Yup, that's so cool.

I never equated those two spells, nor even implied it. I also never suggested that people should spam the equivalent of a third level fireball. What are you doing? Are you just getting desperate?

 

Agreed. Being able to cast spells numerous times repeatedly makes magic more special indeed.

Please cut the selective reading. I've stated: more often, less powerful, more flexible. I believe a magic user should frequently use magic. That's the purpose of their class, so I think it should be a common event. I don't think that magic users should overshadow the core competence areas of other classes. Given 3.5's current spells and their powers, I think that they should be effectively lowered in power by one or two levels. The equivalent of a magic missile would be a second or third level spell. The equivalent of a fireball would be a fourth or fifth level spell. Flexibility is the advantage they have, with the cost of low power and a slowly-regenerating fuel source (mana, vitality, whatever you want).

 

I'd like to ask you this, Volourn: do you believe that a 1st level wizard should be able to climb walls better than a 1st level rogue dedicated to the task? Because really, that's what a spell like spider climb allows a wizard to do. The same could be said for a lot of spells. Personally, I don't like that.

[Judge Hades]

That is one of the things I liked about Monte' Cook's magic system in Arcana Unearthed. Each spell, besides spell level, is set up in three broad catagories. Simple, Complex, and Exotic. Simple spells tend to be not as powerful as Complex or Exotics, and exotics tend to be fairly powerful for their level and require a feat to learn to cast them (like Exotic Weapon feats). With in each spell you have the base power, which you cast at the spell level. Diminished power, allowing you to caste the spell at one level less, taking a lower level slot, or at heighten power which takes up a higher level slot.

 

Also you have so many slots per day but you don't memerize spells. You have a separate number of prepared spells per day, but you can use up all your slots on one prepared spell.

 

It is a fairly nice system.

[Volourn]

"How many adventuring companies a) travel under cover of total darkness or b) camp with no fire whatsoever?"

 

a) Not many unless they are in the desert.

 

b) About half in my experience. Most PCs I see in action are paranoid that someone will see the fire so they tend to forgo campfire unless it's really cold or they desperately need to see but then they have other light sources for that which don't have the habit of giving their location away so eaisly.

 

That said, this still doesn't chnage the fatc that during nighttime or in inner areas; that magic missle's long rnage doens't come into play as often. Even if there's a light source to see by; it's areaof effect is much smaller than the actual spells which pretty much shortens magic missles ranges. Also, inside you have corners and the like to deal with since you can't get the magic missle to turn corners. It's "heat seeking ways" only goes so far.

 

 

"In my experience, it's a very common event."

 

Okay then.

 

 

"Quote something I stated that implied this."

 

No need. It's obviously you are defending the idea that magic missle is some type of super spell that is seemingly unmatched and can't be defended against even though it most clearly can with something as simple as another 1st level spell.

 

 

"You also do this a lot. Why do you converse with people? Do you do it to learn, do you do it to "win", or do you do it for some other purpose? I'm trying to figure out what your goals are from how you carry on these conversations. In my limited observation, it seems to follow a similar pattern:

 

* Statement of opinion, often with the disclaimer of "Period."

* Period of somewhat even debate

* You erect strawmen, building up and tearing down arguments that other people didn't make.

* You get called on this behavior and tell the person they are free to not converse with you.

 

Do you think you'd ever like to see a discussion through to its conclusion? Do you actually think it's beneficial to a discussion to construct arguments from another person's statements that the individual did not, and would not, state on their own? How is that helpful to you or the other person? What is your goal?"

 

Interesting psychobabble that adds nothing to the discussion other to say how evil I am. I'm here to discuss magic systems and I guess the power of magic missle. It's not really complicated to figure that out, I would think. No hidden agenda; no big conspiracy. I'm not that deep or smart.

 

 

"I also never suggested that people should spam the equivalent of a third level fireball. What are you doing?"

 

I already posted that I misread that part, and covered it.

 

 

"Are you just getting desperate?"

 

I only get desperate for girls; not over a discussion on the net. Hate to disspaoint you there.

 

 

"I believe a magic user should frequently use magic."

 

We simply differ on this. I think magic shouldn't be used more frequently - I think the spells slots a D&D wizard already recieves is more than enough. Anymore, he might as well be a fighter whose chosen weapon is magic. *yawn*

 

 

"I'd like to ask you this, Volourn: do you believe that a 1st level wizard should be able to climb walls better than a 1st level rogue dedicated to the task? Because really, that's what a spell like spider climb allows a wizard to do. The same could be said for a lot of spells. Personally, I don't like that."

 

I persoanlly do like that in essence. Magic is about doing thinsg the character normally can't do. Why can't magic be used to 'climb like a spider'? That makes magic special to me. I guess you don't like spells that create say a sword for the wizard to use as that would be taking the fighter's row; or better yet a spell like Tenser's Transformation must really eat you up since it basically turns a mage into a fighter albeit temporarily and with less feats.

 

The thing is both a rogue and fighter have abilities that a wizard can't duplicate so eaisly - sneak attack and number of feats for emaple - good for them. To me, magic should be wonderous and do wonderous things and not stop short just because it might step on another class' toes and hurt their feelings.

 

I also don't beleive in 3rd Editions idea that all classes are treated equal and in balanced. first off, they aran't and they shouldn't be. A rogue should *never* be the flat out equal to a mage. Period. In some areas the rogue can have advantages; but by default it a rogue and mage should not be equal. Why? Magic is defined by its not being normal and easy to pick it or at least it shouldn't be.

 

Anyways...

 

 

 

"That is one of the things I liked about Monte' Cook's magic system in Arcana Unearthed. Each spell, besides spell level, is set up in three broad catagories. Simple, Complex, and Exotic. Simple spells tend to be not as powerful as Complex or Exotics, and exotics tend to be fairly powerful for their level and require a feat to learn to cast them (like Exotic Weapon feats). With in each spell you have the base power, which you cast at the spell level. Diminished power, allowing you to caste the spell at one level less, taking a lower level slot, or at heighten power which takes up a higher level slot."

 

That's a new 3rd Edtion version right? If so, I'll have to check it out... <_<

[Judge Hades]

No, its not a new 3rd edition. 3.5e is basically the same old crap. It is part of Monte Cook's variant Player's Handbook. Head to www.montecook.com to check it out. I think you would like it.

[Expresso]

Uhm.. On-topic: I prefer mana based spell systems (the few times I play a magic user) because I hate planning ahead. That simple.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I bet, that's the reason why most players hate D&D magic system. That and

[Volourn]

"No, its not a new 3rd edition."

 

Eh. That's not exactly what i meant. Wasn't there some sort of 'Unearthed Arcana' years ago for one of the earlier editions. Beena while so maybe I remember wrong... <_<

[J.E. Sawyer]

I'll hopefully have time to discuss this topic more tomorrow, but I would like to state that there is currently a CRPG with a mana system that very effectively prevents spamming: World of Warcraft.

 

Every power has a "cooldown" before it can be used again, ranging from a second to sixty minutes. It is pretty much impossible for my paladin to spam anything. Though I can use healing powers back to back, their casting time is so long that it's far from a "spam". I have to switch constantly between various blessings, seals, my judgment effect, purify, exorcism, and all sorts of other, different effects. Mages and warlocks are the same way. I never see them using the same abilities over and over again. Even if they wanted to, it would be impossible. I have two full quickbars of twelve spells that I use and I'm about to start a third. I need to switch between those as well, often adapting for whatever new situation I am in. It works very well, and I think that "cooldown" is the key to ensuring a variety of tactics.

[Judge Hades]

"No, its not a new 3rd edition."

 

Eh. That's not exactly what i meant. Wasn't there some sort of 'Unearthed Arcana' years ago for one of the earlier editions. Beena while so maybe I remember wrong... <_<

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Unearthed Arcana is from Wotc and it is a very different book.

 

Edit: Sounds like a good system, J.E. Too bad it is in a worthless MORPG.

[Volourn]

"Unearthed Arcana is from Wotc and it is a very different book."

 

Yes; but I was just making sure. "

[Judge Hades]

Well, Monte Cook's revision of Arcana Unearthed should be out soon, Arcana Evolved. I am thinking of picking it up when I have the money.

[Aaron Contreras]

Revision of Arcana Unearthed? Jeez, book hasn't even been out more than a few years. Should've done it right the first time.

[kirottu]

I also don't beleive in 3rd Editions idea that all classes are treated equal and in balanced. first off, they aran't and they shouldn't be. A rogue should *never* be the flat out equal to a mage. Period. In some areas the rogue can have advantages; but by default it a rogue and mage should not be equal. Why? Magic is defined by its  not being normal and easy to pick it or at least it shouldn't be.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Butting in again. :D I did similar, well kinda, sort of similar point once way way back in the blackisle

[Judge Hades]

Revision of Arcana Unearthed?  Jeez, book hasn't even been out more than a few years.  Should've done it right the first time.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Maybe a revision isn't the right word. He is caling it a "Director's Cut." It has all the information in the first version as well as new character race, a new character class, new champion and totem warrior types, new rituals, prestige classes, new spells, new spell templates, feats, equipment, and so forth. Also add in the fact the book jumps from 254 pages to over 400.

 

I think it will be well worth the price.

[Nightwolf]

Why complain about things you can't change? Because you -can- change things. I know from a personal experience that I hated the missions in Carmageddon 2. I wrote a few letters to SCI whining about the missions, and the result is Carmageddon 3 had completely different missions. Still not good missions, but at least much better ones.

 

With all the fuzz going on about mana vs non-mana right here in this forum, I would assume Obsidian have heard us by now. Ignored us, yes, but at least they hear us. And since they hear us, they will think at least twice about adding mana to their next game after NWN2. I'm not sure if it's NWN3, Kotor3, Torment 2 or whatever, but it won't use mana. Because we whine about it.

[Nightblade]

People don't want mana-based systems because "mana tends to regenerate over time", and "there are mana-potions all over the place"?

 

This is ridiculous. We're not discussion Diablo here, but rather different PnP rpg systems(?) I used to play ICE's Rolemaster for a ten year period, between 88 and 98, and there are no mana-potions in that game. There are spell-adders, and mana-enhancing items, rings of power which increase mana etc, kinda like a ring of wizardry. Anyway, this system is far better than anything else I've seen, and I've played a lot. All the D&D editions, Cyberpunk, Palladium, Gurps, Ars-Magica, Rolemaster, MERP, Heroes, Mekton, and a sh*tload of other minor games I can't even begin to remember. The old Rolemaster edition, the first one released, is way better than the rest of these games. If you just include the 2-3 first Rolemaster books, it's actually simpler than the last D&D 3.5ed, and it's a much more solid and balanced system. And the combat system is a much more realistic.

 

An example from the spell-system:

 

One spell-list, Arcane-Fires, contains some 20-30 spells, between the levels 1 and 50. The first lvl spell is a simple fire-starting spell, the last one is a hellish conflagration spell, where every enemy within 50' radius is torched, and suffers a B fire critical each round for the duration of the spell. A lvl 13 mage, could cast a level 13 spell, maybe a lvl 14-15 spell.. any higher, and he'd have to prepare himself for a long time, or suffer horribly if he fails. Let's say our lvl 13 mage has 80/130 mana left. He Decides to put up a 'wall of fire', a lvl 10 spell (10 mana). The default wall of fire delivers a A fire critical to anyone who walks through it, but he can increase the power of the wall, by spending more mana. He spends four times the cost, and increases the heat by four. 40 mana, and the wall gives a D heat critical strike. E is the worst. Some orc walks through, the DM rolls the critical, 1d100. The result is 87. 1 is worst, 100 is the best. The DM reads the result from the critical table, and the players get a detailed description of what happens to the orc. He is engulfed in fire, suffers horribly, fights at -30, stunned and unable to parry for 5 rounds, his cloak and clothes are on fire.. etc. Maybe he dies after 6 rounds, blinded, etc. Could be anything, related to fire.

 

This system is a bit complicated, but for those who are used to it, way more entertaining than a simple: the firebolt does 3d6 damage, save reflex for half, strike a spell from you book. Also, imagine using a system like this in a crpg, implementing it thoroughly, combined with realistic medieval humanoid avatars, instead of these new barbie-doll look-a-like D&D chicks you get in the crappy consol games these days. It would be a killer game indeed.

 

Oh, and if you want the mana back, you'd have to sleep for eight hours. And you don't regenerate it from minute to minute.

 

 

N.

[kirottu]

I have played ice

[kirottu]

With all the fuzz going on about mana vs non-mana right here in this forum, I would assume Obsidian have heard us by now. Ignored us, yes, but at least they hear us. And since they hear us, they will think at least twice about adding mana to their next game after NWN2. I'm not sure if it's NWN3, Kotor3, Torment 2 or whatever, but it won't use mana. Because we whine about it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think that dabate is going rather evenly between mana based magic system and d&d

[Judge Hades]

Rolemaster was horrid. 10 hours to make a character, and a single die roll to kill it. No thank you.