To be grey

[drcloak]

 

Well, I wouldn't call them "evil", but I do think they are wrong.

EDIT: I'm referring to the people in New York. Below I'm referring to a Jedi

 

But there is something to be said for being "unavailable" - if you're on you're way to save the galaxy from a Sith attack, then it wouldn't be dark to leave the women. Still, it's wrong not to get involved if you can.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, what would a Grey Jedi do in this situation then?

 

- dr cloak

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That's the point, I don't think you can be a "Gray Jedi"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Of course you can be a Grey Jedi lol. A Jedi that doesn't believe in the Sith teachings, nor believes in the Jedi Order, or Code.

 

- dr cloak

[drcloak]

Grey jedi would probably help just to get some fighting practice in then hit on the woman and take a reward.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

LOL right on

 

- dr cloak

[BuckeyeRowe]

It depends. I have to ask my lawyer :D  What happens if I try to help and she got hurt worse would that be evil? If I tell her to just give the purse to the attacker so he would go away would that be good?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yeah, exactly! There are so many variables involved, and it goes much deeper than what initially appears on the surface.

 

A Grey Jedi might say to him/herself "Well, if I help this woman and save her from the Thugs, that would draw attention to myself, and right now, I'm trying to pretend I'm not a Jedi, in order to get more information from the locals"

 

- dr cloak

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

But that is being a smart Light Jedi. It may seem wrong, but it is for good. Being Light does not mean stopping all injustice and attackers. Remember in KOTOR when Bastila was explaining to Carth that the Jedi did not aid the Republic against the Mandalorian because they saw a greater evil? The Jedi were making a Dark choice, but making a choice for the greater good.

[BuckeyeRowe]

Of course you can be a Grey Jedi lol.  A Jedi that doesn't believe in the Sith teachings, nor believes in the Jedi Order, or Code.

 

- dr cloak

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Being Dark or Light does not depend on whether you joined the Sith or the Jedi (although you would be expelled from the group if you did not act like them), but on how you act.

 

It's like being a registered Democrat but always voting Republican. You say you're a Democrat, but you're a Conservative in the end. (Sorry if you don't live in the US or know US politics, but it's the best example I could come up with)

[ntime60]

Being grey is about choices. As drcloak pointed out - you could just walk away and not be involved. Using the robber scenario, by leaving the victim alone then you are not supporting either side. Your choice my result in a shift in either direction depending on the outcome. Who knows the victim may survive and become a procesecutor and later get revenge on the very thugs that robbed her in the first place - then again they could kill her leaving orphans to grow up to become the next Lord of the Sith.

 

Apathy is a choice of nonchoice. If you do not like the choices offered then you can choose to support neither side, thereby remaining undecided. We see it everyday, why should the SW galaxy be any different?

 

If the light cannot survive without the dark or if the dark survives because of the light then there should be a balancing point some where if the universe does seek balance - thus grey.

 

Wouldn't it be ironic to find out that there were grey masters that actually sought to balance the entire universe? That they manipulated events behind the scenes from both light and dark to ensure the balance of the universe was maintained. The truth always lies somewhere between light and dark.

[cewekeds]

If the Jedi Order would have lead the fight instead of Raven would Raven learn or need the sith teachings? By doing nothing its seems the Jedi caused a greater evil.

[drcloak]

Of course you can be a Grey Jedi lol.  A Jedi that doesn't believe in the Sith teachings, nor believes in the Jedi Order, or Code.

 

- dr cloak

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Being Dark or Light does not depend on whether you joined the Sith or the Jedi (although you would be expelled from the group if you did not act like them), but on how you act.

 

It's like being a registered Democrat but always voting Republican. You say you're a Democrat, but you're a Conservative in the end. (Sorry if you don't live in the US or know US politics, but it's the best example I could come up with)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Good analogy.

 

- dr cloak

[drcloak]

If the Jedi Order would have lead the fight instead of Raven would Raven learn or need the sith teachings? By doing nothing its seems the Jedi caused a greater evil.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Yeah, I agree. It appears that Revan actually saved countless lives by going against the wishes of the Council.

 

- dr cloak

[BuckeyeRowe]

Being grey is about choices.  As drcloak pointed out - you could just walk away and not be involved.  Using the robber scenario, by leaving the victim alone then you are not supporting either side.  Your choice my result in a shift in either direction depending on the outcome.  Who knows the victim may survive and become a procesecutor and later get revenge on the very thugs that robbed her in the first place - then again they could kill  her leaving orphans to grow up to become the next Lord of the Sith.

 

Apathy is a choice of nonchoice.  If you do not like the choices offered then you can choose to support neither side, thereby remaining undecided.  We see it everyday, why should the SW galaxy be any different?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It doesn't matter if the victim that you save becomes the next Sith Lord - saving the victim from the thugs was light side.

 

The choice of nonchoice is in itself a choice. By choosing not to get involved, you make the choice to let evil prevail. And to let evil prevail is not Gray and certainly not Light, but Dark.

[BuckeyeRowe]

If the Jedi Order would have lead the fight instead of Raven would Raven learn or need the sith teachings? By doing nothing its seems the Jedi caused a greater evil.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You're right, Reven would not learn the teachings of the Sith if the Jedi got involved (well, he may have anyway).

 

But when the Jedi made the choice it was a light choice. And even afterword, it was a light choice.

 

A man is about to get hit by a car. You push him out of the way. The man goes on to kill dozens as a serial killer. Was it evil to save the man's life?

[drcloak]

Being grey is about choices.  As drcloak pointed out - you could just walk away and not be involved.  Using the robber scenario, by leaving the victim alone then you are not supporting either side.  Your choice my result in a shift in either direction depending on the outcome.  Who knows the victim may survive and become a procesecutor and later get revenge on the very thugs that robbed her in the first place - then again they could kill  her leaving orphans to grow up to become the next Lord of the Sith.

 

Apathy is a choice of nonchoice.  If you do not like the choices offered then you can choose to support neither side, thereby remaining undecided.  We see it everyday, why should the SW galaxy be any different?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It doesn't matter if the victim that you save becomes the next Sith Lord - saving the victim from the thugs was light side.

 

The choice of nonchoice is in itself a choice. By choosing not to get involved, you make the choice to let evil prevail. And to let evil prevail is not Gray and certainly not Light, but Dark.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, I think in the end, it comes down to ultimate motive. For example, I can see a Jedi saving the victim as well. I can see Jedi killing the thugs and rescuing the woman, only to have her be indebted to him/her as a 'servant'.

 

The end result is that evil was conquered, the woman was saved. But cleary this Jedi is not a Light Sider.

 

- dr cloak

[ntime60]

Kreyia actually makes a good point on Nar shadda, about why you should not be charitable all of the time - when you give 5 credits to the beggar and shows you a possible outcome.

 

She always seemed to preach , being aware of the choices that you make. I really feel that we should not be confined to light and dark/right or wrong/ black and white. Real strength comes from helping ones own self through your own times of crisis. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

[cewekeds]

What if you judge whats going on. She looks rich and a good reward will be given to me. Thats evil. if you decline the reward then thats light. Gray means everything you do gets you closer to your goals. Your nice when you have to be and mean when you need be but the choice is yours. You notice the flaws with the sith killing people hurting people. I think real sith training would be grey.

[BuckeyeRowe]

Well, I think in the end, it comes down to ultimate motive.  For example, I can see a Jedi saving the victim as well.  I can see Jedi killing the thugs and rescuing the woman, only to have her be indebted to him/her as a 'servant'.

 

The end result is that evil was conquered, the woman was saved.  But cleary this Jedi is not a Light Sider.

 

- dr cloak

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes, but the Jedi made two choice. First, to save the women. Second, to enslave her.

 

These were two seperate choices. And this is how some would say you can have a Gray Jedi. But I think that this Jedi would be Dark.

 

Think when Vader was dying. He turned back to the light. Would we call him a Dark Jedi because he did so many things for evil. No, we call him a Light side Jedi because that is the choice he made, and it was the final choice he made before he died.

 

If George Bush would decide to become a liberal, would we call him a moderate because he has been a conservative for so long? No, we would call him a liberal.

[BuckeyeRowe]

Kreyia actually makes a good point on Nar shadda, about why you should not be charitable all of the time -  when you give 5 credits to the beggar and shows you a possible outcome. 

 

She always seemed to preach , being aware of the choices that you make.  I really feel that we should not be confined to light and dark/right or wrong/ black and white.  Real strength comes from helping ones own self through your own times of crisis.  What doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'm a PCer, so maybe after playing the game, I'll see things differently. But I don't think so...

[cewekeds]

But if you notice alot of dark jedi do the evil things for a greater good when they start out. Vader wants order to the galaxy. He wants people to do the right thing through they own choice or forced. Thats why jedi fall so easy because you have to do bad things in life for the goal.

[drcloak]

Example of Grey:

 

http://www.abum.com/?show_media=3129&file_type=Movies

 

 

- dr cloak

[ntime60]

But if you notice alot of dark jedi do the evil things for a greater good when they start out. Vader wants order to the galaxy. He wants people to do the right thing through they own choice or forced. Thats why jedi fall so easy because you have to do bad things in life for the goal.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The same held true for Revan, he chose to fight the Mandelorians because he felt that if they waited then the Republic would be speaking Mandeloian. He truly felt that he was taking the correct course of action and was probably right at the time. Initially it was for the greater good.

[BuckeyeRowe]

But if you notice alot of dark jedi do the evil things for a greater good when they start out. Vader wants order to the galaxy. He wants people to do the right thing through they own choice or forced. Thats why jedi fall so easy because you have to do bad things in life for the goal.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

A good point. But it fails because if a Jedi ignores the women getting jumped to save the galaxy, then it is not Dark. But if a Jedi just ignores the women for no reason, it is dark.

[Ostkant]

Example of Grey as I see it:

 

"Help me, I am being robbed"

 

You say to the thugs that are robbing the woman: "I guess it's time to die, Bantha herders"

 

After that you give the woman her money back and say "Yeah yeah... just get out of here" This to me also seems like a mix of Light and Dark, which is Grey.

 

Would be cool with some sort of Gray meter as well, but myself I am inclined to stick to the Dark side, it is my nature.

 

In fact I think I just pulled a Bindo. (The woman being robbed scenario)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yeah your example is definitely Light Sider. Grey would be do nothing at all, and go about your business. Dark Side would be to either kill the thugs, then kill the woman and take her money, or have the thugs give you her money, then leave.

 

Your example, the end result is that a woman was saved from thugs.

 

- dr cloak

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I don't think it is Light side at all. A person of the Light would have negotiated peacefully with Mind Tricks or Persuasion, but in my example you chose to unleash your anger and kill thugs, and then you give the woman her money back. Sure she ended up with the money, but I gave her a bad attitude and chose to negotiate like a HK protocol droid - which is not the way of the Light.

 

EDIT: Myself I'm naturally drawn to the Dark side, but I do not like the Sith teachings, much less the Jedi ones. I would still join the Jedi to build up my strength and then leave them and do what I want. If I were to train within the Sith, I would get killed for "failures".

[BuckeyeRowe]

Example of Grey as I see it:

 

"Help me, I am being robbed"

 

You say to the thugs that are robbing the woman: "I guess it's time to die, Bantha herders"

 

After that you give the woman her money back and say "Yeah yeah... just get out of here" This to me also seems like a mix of Light and Dark, which is Grey.

 

Would be cool with some sort of Gray meter as well, but myself I am inclined to stick to the Dark side, it is my nature.

 

In fact I think I just pulled a Bindo. (The woman being robbed scenario)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yeah your example is definitely Light Sider. Grey would be do nothing at all, and go about your business. Dark Side would be to either kill the thugs, then kill the woman and take her money, or have the thugs give you her money, then leave.

 

Your example, the end result is that a woman was saved from thugs.

 

- dr cloak

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I don't think it is Light side at all. A person of the Light would have negotiated peacefully with Mind Tricks or Persuasion, but in my example you chose to unleash your anger and kill thugs, and then you give the woman her money back. Sure she ended up with the money, but I gave her a bad attitude and chose to negotiate like a HK protocol droid - which is not the way of the Light.

 

Myself I'm naturally drawn to the Dark side, but I do not like the Sith teachings, much less the Jedi ones. I would still join the Jedi to build up my strength and then leave them and do what I want. If I were to train within the Sith, I would get killed for "failures".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Good Point.

[EnderAndrew]

You can play grey to an extent in both games. They may not have an ending movie for grey players, but you can temper your decisions in the game with a grey mindset.

 

And Kreia is a bit of a grey, though she has a very different outlook than Jolee.

[jaguars4ever]

You can play grey to an extent in both games.  They may not have an ending movie for grey players, but you can temper your decisions in the game with a grey mindset.

 

And Kreia is a bit of a grey, though she has a very different outlook than Jolee.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, but they still lose out on a lot of party member exposition and access to prestige classes.

[Catalyst]

The only way to remain grey is to be neutral. This means taking no stance, no opinion, no action. Maybe you can live like that in real life, but in a game it is simply impossible. The Light/Dark meter in the KotOR series simplified the issue into the overt dark and light choices. To remain grey in KotOR you have to mix them, but this does not make you a true neutral or 'grey' character.

[jaguars4ever]

The only way to remain grey is to be neutral.  This means taking no stance, no opinion, no action. 

"Apathy is death."