213374U Posted November 18, 2004 Share Posted November 18, 2004 15 is high level, lv 10 under the d20 system is considered powerful and most jedi would be around lv3-lv8 In Star Wars there is little to do after lv15 since only a few creatures are above such level and in skill checks alone a lv15 could build a starship out of junk. Yep. Obi-Wan was level 10 in AotC and like 15 in ANH. Jedi reach Knighthood by level 7, and the prerequisite for the Jedi Master PC is either have an apprentice, or 12 levels in Jedi classes. Epic levels were designed for D&D because AD&D had 30 levels and there was a lot of stuff that converted from AD&D to D&D would pass the lv20 barrier, also D&D is full of muchkins that like that kind of crap. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Not only that... in D&D, there are manifestations of gods, demigods, powerful demons, and mortals whose power is close to deity. The need to regulate those beings through game rules brought about the epic levels... the cheapest invention of D&D, if you ask me. - When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ameorn Posted November 18, 2004 Share Posted November 18, 2004 All this d20 doesn't apply to the game mostly because, they said that KotOR is based 'loosely' on the SW d20 system. They implement their own stuff to make it playable for everyone. Although i wouldn't mind if they would implement more of the d20 system. But that probably won't happen if they want to keep a large base of players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
213374U Posted November 18, 2004 Share Posted November 18, 2004 All this d20 doesn't apply to the game mostly because, they said that KotOR is based 'loosely' on the SW d20 system. They implement their own stuff to make it playable for everyone. Although i wouldn't mind if they would implement more of the d20 system. But that probably won't happen if they want to keep a large base of players. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yes, I realize that. However, it turns out the D20 system is a complete and constantly revised set of rules which has been proven to be effective and well balanced (well, mostly), by thousands of fans around the world. Obsidian's modifications to this system, on the other hand, have not. - When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostofAnakin Posted November 18, 2004 Share Posted November 18, 2004 Yes, I realize that. However, it turns out the D20 system is a complete and constantly revised set of rules which has been proven to be effective and well balanced (well, mostly), by thousands of fans around the world. Obsidian's modifications to this system, on the other hand, have not. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You know this because you've played the game already? Or did you mean Bioware? Because until you actually PLAY Obsidian's game, all you're doing is making assumptions. On one hand you say that the D20 system is constantly revised and the revisions have proved to be effective, but on the other hand you say that Obsidian's revisions (yet to be seen, since the game isn't out) aren't effective. Perhaps you should wait and see how the game pans out before immediately deeming Obsidian's revisions to be lacking. "Console exclusive is such a harsh word." - Darque"Console exclusive is two words Darque." - Nartwak (in response to Darque's observation) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosbjerg Posted November 18, 2004 Share Posted November 18, 2004 thanks for the answers .. as I thought we are a little too powerfull for our own good in K2 .. Fortune favors the bald. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
213374U Posted November 18, 2004 Share Posted November 18, 2004 On one hand you say that the D20 system is constantly revised and the revisions have proved to be effective, but on the other hand you say that Obsidian's revisions (yet to be seen, since the game isn't out) aren't effective. Perhaps you should wait and see how the game pans out before immediately deeming Obsidian's revisions to be lacking. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No, that's not what I said. I said that Obsidian's modifications haven't been proven effective and balanced by thousands of gamers worldwide yet, while the D20 system, has. My point was, it's not only unnecesary to further modify the D20 ruleset, it's also risky since can result in serious gameplay unbalance. Beginning to be affected by the post-before-you-think syndrome as well, are we? " - When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostofAnakin Posted November 18, 2004 Share Posted November 18, 2004 No, that's not what I said. I said that Obsidian's modifications haven't been proven effective and balanced by thousands of gamers worldwide yet, while the D20 system, has. My point was, it's not only unnecesary to further modify the D20 ruleset, it's also risky since can result in serious gameplay unbalance. Beginning to be affected by the post-before-you-think syndrome as well, are we? " <{POST_SNAPBACK}> But my point is that it's too early for you to make assumptions about their revisions. I, myself, am not in favor of what they've done. But I'm not too arrogant to be stuck in my thinking, and will give them a wait-and-see approach to see if they handled it properly or not. And you missed my point about your reference to all those other revisions. My point is, I'm sure people at the time said "this is stupid" when they were made, but what are they to say now? Don't assume until all facts are available. "Console exclusive is such a harsh word." - Darque"Console exclusive is two words Darque." - Nartwak (in response to Darque's observation) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosbjerg Posted November 18, 2004 Share Posted November 18, 2004 well hes still right GOA .. it hasn't been proven by thousand of players yet! Fortune favors the bald. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostofAnakin Posted November 18, 2004 Share Posted November 18, 2004 well hes still right GOA .. it hasn't been proven by thousand of players yet! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> But it doesn't make the system flawed. Which is what the consensus among those in this thread that are against the way Obsidian did things are saying. "Console exclusive is such a harsh word." - Darque"Console exclusive is two words Darque." - Nartwak (in response to Darque's observation) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
213374U Posted November 18, 2004 Share Posted November 18, 2004 And you missed my point about your reference to all those other revisions. My point is, I'm sure people at the time said "this is stupid" when they were made, but what are they to say now? Don't assume until all facts are available. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Not quite. Revisions to pnp rulesets are often made upon player feedback, in order to solve problems or unbalances found by players. Again, I'm not sentencing Obsidian's modifications to death. But designing a whole new level scale above 20 is no simple matter, and like it or not, was unnecessary. They have taken the risky path when there was no need to. Maybe their work on the d20 ruleset will turn out to be great and absolutely flawless from a gameplay and balance standpoint, we'll see. But considering they are aiming at a similar game length as K1 had, it's obvious there will be XP inflation. And that is not a good sign. - When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostofAnakin Posted November 18, 2004 Share Posted November 18, 2004 Again, I'm not sentencing Obsidian's modifications to death. But designing a whole new level scale above 20 is no simple matter, and like it or not, was unnecessary. They have taken the risky path when there was no need to. Maybe their work on the d20 ruleset will turn out to be great and absolutely flawless from a gameplay and balance standpoint, we'll see. But considering they are aiming at a similar game length as K1 had, it's obvious there will be XP inflation. And that is not a good sign. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I agree with that. I've stated a few times that we're going to be getting XP for doing random, minor stuff just to get enough XP by the time the game is drawing to a conclusion and that's got me worried as well. All I'm saying is that the sentiment (not just you) that Obsidian has ALREADY made a mistake is a bit premature. I'd rather wait and see whether they can pull it off, despite my misgivings right now. "Console exclusive is such a harsh word." - Darque"Console exclusive is two words Darque." - Nartwak (in response to Darque's observation) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ameorn Posted November 18, 2004 Share Posted November 18, 2004 Again, I'm not sentencing Obsidian's modifications to death. But designing a whole new level scale above 20 is no simple matter, and like it or not, was unnecessary. They have taken the risky path when there was no need to. Maybe their work on the d20 ruleset will turn out to be great and absolutely flawless from a gameplay and balance standpoint, we'll see. But considering they are aiming at a similar game length as K1 had, it's obvious there will be XP inflation. And that is not a good sign. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I agree with that. I've stated a few times that we're going to be getting XP for doing random, minor stuff just to get enough XP by the time the game is drawing to a conclusion and that's got me worried as well. All I'm saying is that the sentiment (not just you) that Obsidian has ALREADY made a mistake is a bit premature. I'd rather wait and see whether they can pull it off, despite my misgivings right now. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> There is always a risk that it will be much xp hunting for no reason in CRPGs, but Ghost is right that we have to wait and see what happens and not judge the game prematurely. They've been working their butts of to deliver us a game that will be great, that's their vision anyway. And they deserve to be given the benefit of the doubt, don't you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drakron Posted November 18, 2004 Share Posted November 18, 2004 ... And they deserve to be given the benefit of the doubt, don't you think? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ameorn Posted November 18, 2004 Share Posted November 18, 2004 ... And they deserve to be given the benefit of the doubt, don't you think? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Good answer I just love when people explain their point of view Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drakron Posted November 18, 2004 Share Posted November 18, 2004 Why? I mean this is a message board, from day one we talked over a SW:KotOR sequel being "Project X" and gone over the rules as implemented both on the d20 and SW:KotOR and what we see? Expansion pack material. It not like we can make LucasArts to change their minds and allow OE to actually WORK on the RPG system, they want a "RPG lite" that even George Bush can understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ameorn Posted November 18, 2004 Share Posted November 18, 2004 I'm not saying that your view of how you want the game is worng, i'm just saying that maybe we should wait for the game to come out, play it and then comment/burn/swear on the game... But that's just l'il ol' me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stargate: 2000 Posted November 19, 2004 Share Posted November 19, 2004 Err... how is a level 30 cap going to help you get more out of prestige classes? You know, most prestige classes have just between 5 and 10 levels. And by level 10 of a standard class you are already able to add levels from most prestige classes your class allows. I for one would like it better if instead of rising the level cap, they had added multiclassing as an option. Now that would add to replayability. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> First off I will readily admit I know nothing about D20 or anysuch thing, second my thought process on this was that the prestige class would be somewhat like the original jedi classes from KOTOR. Or in other words you will be able to obtain it more than likely by level 15 and as such will have the other 15+ levels to refine the prestige class the way you want it. Since I can't see them stopping the leveling after you finish ten levels in the prestige class, I would imagine you would be able to continue to level till say level 30 regaurdless of the level you obtain the prestige class. The reason why I say this is because we all know there are going to be people out there who will obtain the prestige class as quickly as possible say level 8 for arguements sake that would mean you could only go to level 18 max which would mean you wouldn't even be able to level as high as the original. I don't know if this makes any sense at all but thats kinda what my thought was. "The only difference between genius and stupidity is genius has its limits!" - Albert Einstein. "It's better to be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt!" "You can try to kill me, you'd fail!, but you can try!" - Revan. "When you have exhausted all other possibilities whatever remains, however improbable must be the truth." - Sherlock Holmes (a.k.a. Sir Arthur Conan Dole) "A lack of planning on your part, does not constitute an emergency on my part" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Hades Posted November 19, 2004 Share Posted November 19, 2004 I'm not saying that your view of how you want the game is worng, i'm just saying that maybe we should wait for the game to come out, play it and then comment/burn/swear on the game... But that's just l'il ol' me <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Thing is we already played the game, game mechanic wise. We already done everything we can do with the gameplay and the mechanics of the game with KotOR 1. The only difference is the story and changes to the interface. EVERYTHING ELSE IS THE SAME! There were drastic needs for improvement for the game mechanics which Obsidian did none of. All they did, rules wise, is up the max level to 30 and call it a day. Sorry, but that just isn't good enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ameorn Posted November 19, 2004 Share Posted November 19, 2004 EVERYTHING ELSE IS THE SAME! There were drastic needs for improvement for the game mechanics which Obsidian did none of. All they did, rules wise, is up the max level to 30 and call it a day. Sorry, but that just isn't good enough. The question is, was it Obsidians fault that they couldn't do the many changes or was it Lucasarts. And knowing LA, it was most probably them!! But i still think the game will be great, big changes or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSLuke Posted November 19, 2004 Share Posted November 19, 2004 The game will be better than the first KOTOR, I have forseen it. :cool: End of discussion. And by the light of the moon He prays for their beauty not doom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Planar Jedi Posted November 19, 2004 Share Posted November 19, 2004 How could you forsee it, since the DS hampers your vision? There is hope beyond hope Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSLuke Posted November 19, 2004 Share Posted November 19, 2004 The Darksiders can also see the future. And my vision is not hampered by the Dark Side. And by the light of the moon He prays for their beauty not doom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Planar Jedi Posted November 19, 2004 Share Posted November 19, 2004 You think so. There is hope beyond hope Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSLuke Posted November 19, 2004 Share Posted November 19, 2004 How would you know? you follow only the jedi code? have you ever give in to your emotions? The real blinds are those who can't see as a blind. And by the light of the moon He prays for their beauty not doom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Planar Jedi Posted November 19, 2004 Share Posted November 19, 2004 I used to do so. But my eyes so the truth and i sought redemption(in real life i am a palpatine though) There is hope beyond hope Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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