Light Side Powers

[Sorall Loskannen]

One of the things that it says in the rules somewhere, is that if a Jedi puts somebody into stasis (a trance/force hibernation etc), and that person is later killed by anyone while they cannot defend themselves then the Jedi gets a DS point. The motive behind the trance is irrelevant. That's the strictness of the rules, and I think it's what Lucas intended. If the Jedi were to put somebody in stasis and then hack them up I would give them a lot of DS points if I was the GM.

 

I understand that it is based on the rules, and not a copy, but I do enjoy a good conversation and speculation.

[SilverSun]

Sorry Silver but there is no line, if you use the force in offense directly it's dark side. The fact that the force affords you the skill to wield a saber in a offensive way is not the same as drawing on the force itself to strike at your enemies. Sometimes it gets ambigous, is to throw a rock at an enemy using the rock or the force? or is disabling an enemy so as to pass by him unharmed by choking him for an instant with the force an attack? But it has been made clear as daylight that to strike at someone with force lightning is dark beyond intention.

 

Luke's actions in ROTJ where not the actions of a refined master. With more learning and experience he would not have struck him in such a way.

 

If you're protecting someone from being killed,or yourself it's not offense it's defense. That is where the line comes in. Def of yourself or someone else is not the same as attacking someone with it. Someone is in danger of being killed and you hit the attacker with some kind of Force power you didn't attack them. Attack would indicate that you started things off.

 

Unharmed?Might not have shown it in the movies but in the books I believe it says he killed both guards.

 

And when a Jedi uses the saber they're using the Force to help them control it, then they strike someone down with it they are using the Force to help guide their saber to strike them down. The Force is being used the same as if it's a power.

 

On the rock,do you mean pick it up and throw it with your hands? With the Force? Was the Force used ti aim the rock at all?

 

Part of the problem is games like this need the little Force tree in their balance system to make the game work. There is no such system in the SW universe from a story stand point. When ever the dark side is mentioned what is said? Anger,hate fear,etc,which are what? Emotions.

 

It's true the Force is more then just a tool but the emotions of the user are what feed the Force. Again,why Jedi are told not to strike with anger or fear or hate in their heart/minds because the emotion will be fed the Force which can use that to change the user. If there's not DS emotion there's no DS "food" for the Force to feed off of.

[SilverSun]

I understand that it is based on the rules, and not a copy, but I do enjoy a good conversation and speculation.

 

As do I

 

This may or may not be my last post of the night,but I'll get to anything else directed towards me at another time.

[Azazel005]

I ceartainly aren't suggesting that the game can be as restrictive as the code is intended, just to get that out of the way. It balances out the powers as effectively as possible and still makes the game fun.

 

The code itself is rigid, using the force to guide you saber is not at all the same as directing it at your enemies. It's affecting you motions you are channelling the force through yourself, the act of transforming the force into something that can hurt your enemies "directly" is dark despite it's intention. Hence the argument's that oftn come about that a Jedi coul'd concievably pick up a hurricane of rocks with the force and rain them against his attacker's, but to turn the force agaisnt them by crushing them from the insides would be considered wrong.

 

It's a question of how the Jedi view the force and understand it.

[SilverSun]

Pop back in here before I head off to bed.

 

So using the Force to throw an object=okay?

 

Using the Force on a living body=bad?

 

You're rationalizing.

 

It's like shooting someone and saying you didn't kill them the bullet did. You pulled the trigger,you killed them. However why you pulled the trigger would make all the difference in the world.

 

It's a question of how the Jedi view the force and understand it.

 

They don't want the line to be crossed and because it can be crossed in an instant is the reason for caution.

 

If emotions weren't the main factor in falling to the DS,why any time the DS is brought up are things like anger,fear,hate,revenge brought up? The thing is however that the path to hell is littered with good intentions. You can cross that line in the blink of an eye,which is why they're taught as they are. That doesn't change that pushing someone off a cliff with the Force because they killed a loved one and pushing them off the cliff to stop them from killing a loved one are two very different actions with different motivation behind them.

[Azazel005]

If emotions weren't the main factor in falling to the DS,why any time the DS is brought up are things like anger,fear,hate,revenge brought up? The thing is however that the path to hell is littered with good intentions. You can cross that line in the blink of an eye,which is why they're taught as they are. That doesn't change that pushing someone off a cliff with the Force because they killed a loved one and pushing them off the cliff to stop them from killing a loved one are two very different actions with different motivation behind them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

From a moral Compass POV, but the force is not all just about moral values and justice.

 

If you used the force to save your loved by pushing someone of the cliff, was that the only resolution available to you? or did you react out of fear for that person's safety and simply call on the force to solve your problems?

 

It's not a question of doing a noble thing, Jedi's don't command the force to do there bidding, for any reason. I know how semantic a line it seems (believe it or not I have had this very geeky discussion before ). It's not entirely dissimilar to using force to say float your drink accross the table, you could pick it up just as easy it's wrong to call on the force for such things. Even when people are at risk a Jedi can't call on the force to directly solve there problems. Sometimes drastic situations call for the force to be wielded in such a way that it could harm, but never or nigh ever to directly strike your enemies.

[Barzarel]

If emotions weren't the main factor in falling to the DS,why any time the DS is brought up are things like anger,fear,hate,revenge brought up? The thing is however that the path to hell is littered with good intentions. You can cross that line in the blink of an eye,which is why they're taught as they are. That doesn't change that pushing someone off a cliff with the Force because they killed a loved one and pushing them off the cliff to stop them from killing a loved one are two very different actions with different motivation behind them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

From a moral Compass POV, but the force is not all just about moral values and justice.

 

If you used the force to save your loved by pushing someone of the cliff, was that the only resolution available to you? or did you react out of fear for that person's safety and simply call on the force to solve your problems?

 

It's not a question of doing a noble thing, Jedi's don't command the force to do there bidding, for any reason. I know how semantic a line it seems (believe it or not I have had this very geeky discussion before ). It's not entirely dissimilar to using force to say float your drink accross the table, you could pick it up just as easy it's wrong to call on the force for such things. Even when people are at risk a Jedi can't call on the force to directly solve there problems. Sometimes drastic situations call for the force to be wielded in such a way that it could harm, but never or nigh ever to directly strike your enemies.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Think the old AD&D describe evil very well.

 

Evil is action deliberately causing hurt to others, in order to benifit yourself rather than common good.

 

So to say a evil actions can sometime cause opposite effects, you might kill a tyrant for instance to rob his house dry, this being a personally act of benifit however it hurt the tyrant, but in general there wont be other who suffer under his hand.

 

In short you intended a evil act but it also create common good for general population.

 

There isnt any right or wrong way it the result that determines how the action is wieghted.

 

As to say if you use the force for personal gain and it hurts other people then its a evil action. Since result creates harm

[zion22]

no

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[213374U]

If emotions weren't the main factor in falling to the DS,why any time the DS is brought up are things like anger,fear,hate,revenge brought up? The thing is however that the path to hell is littered with good intentions. You can cross that line in the blink of an eye,which is why they're taught as they are. That doesn't change that pushing someone off a cliff with the Force because they killed a loved one and pushing them off the cliff to stop them from killing a loved one are two very different actions with different motivation behind them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There are degrees of darkness in dark side actions, you know. Attacking an innocent person with a lightsaber is evil. Actions like that change your nature into a soulless person, but not necessarily a puppet of the dark side (think Adm. Karath). Attacking an innocent person with the Force is an evil action performed through the dark side. That makes you evil, soulless, and a slave of the dark side. Attacking an innocent with the Force in anger, not only makes you a slave of the dark side, but also a pawn of your own emotions. In the K2 website you can read 'Your mastery of the DS is only surpassed by your animal rage'. Very enlightening on the nature of darksiders.

 

Using the force to cause harm to living beings, be it directly through choking, lightning, or indirectly, by say, bringing the ceiling down on your enemy, is considered giving in to the dark side. A Jedi can never find an excuse to do that kind of things. In fact you will find that most Jedi masters would rather die (and yes, let others die) than use the Force with ill intent.

 

Now, I can understand the need for some degree of adjustment to these rules in order to make them fit into a cRPG. But going past anything like Force Wave is crossing the line.

[Barzarel]

If emotions weren't the main factor in falling to the DS,why any time the DS is brought up are things like anger,fear,hate,revenge brought up? The thing is however that the path to hell is littered with good intentions. You can cross that line in the blink of an eye,which is why they're taught as they are. That doesn't change that pushing someone off a cliff with the Force because they killed a loved one and pushing them off the cliff to stop them from killing a loved one are two very different actions with different motivation behind them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There are degrees of darkness in dark side actions, you know. Attacking an innocent person with a lightsaber is evil. Actions like that change your nature into a soulless person, but not necessarily a puppet of the dark side (think Adm. Karath). Attacking an innocent person with the Force is an evil action performed through the dark side. That makes you evil, soulless, and a slave of the dark side. Attacking an innocent with the Force in anger, not only makes you a slave of the dark side, but also a pawn of your own emotions. In the K2 website you can read 'Your mastery of the DS is only surpassed by your animal rage'. Very enlightening on the nature of darksiders.

 

Using the force to cause harm to living beings, be it directly through choking, lightning, or indirectly, by say, bringing the ceiling down on your enemy, is considered giving in to the dark side. A Jedi can never find an excuse to do that kind of things. In fact you will find that most Jedi masters would rather die (and yes, let others die) than use the Force with ill intent.

 

Now, I can understand the need for some degree of adjustment to these rules in order to make them fit into a cRPG. But going past anything like Force Wave is crossing the line.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

All this made me wonder will DS and LS be as easy to get high early ingame or will it work over time.

 

Remember in kotor1 i had near max in either of them at end of Taris, which i thought was pretty early to have that high in them.

 

Edit: Think i am gonna enjoy the DS alot this time, i remember how i enjoyed playing around with imperials in JK3 with throwing them around life draining them pushing them out over high area making them fall to their death.

 

Wonder if Kotor2 has sorta the same.

[LORD GRAVEN]

how bout instead of an offensive light power it gets shifted to the neutral side like force wave can be good can be bad but no one can complain lol :D

[SilverSun]

There are degrees of darkness in dark side actions, you know. Attacking an innocent person with a lightsaber is evil. Actions like that change your nature into a soulless person, but not necessarily a puppet of the dark side (think Adm. Karath). Attacking an innocent person with the Force is an evil action performed through the dark side. That makes you evil, soulless, and a slave of the dark side. Attacking an innocent with the Force in anger, not only makes you a slave of the dark side, but also a pawn of your own emotions. In the K2 website you can read 'Your mastery of the DS is only surpassed by your animal rage'. Very enlightening on the nature of darksiders.

 

Protecting an innocent person from an attacker and attacking an innocent with the Force is two very different things.

 

Using the force to cause harm to living beings, be it directly through choking, lightning, or indirectly, by say, bringing the ceiling down on your enemy, is considered giving in to the dark side. A Jedi can never find an excuse to do that kind of things. In fact you will find that most Jedi masters would rather die (and yes, let others die) than use the Force with ill intent.

 

I can see a Jedi Master perhaps not using it to protect themself from harm,but where has it ever been said a Jedi Master would sit back and let innocent people die instead of using the Force to stop the attacker? Using the Force for the protection of innocent life is not using the Force with ill intent. Where you are correct in that there are different levels of DS actions,it is still the emotions,reasons,and control behind the action that make it DS or not. Sitting back and doing nothing while innocent people die in front of you when you could have stopped it is border line DS actions. Again I have to say that because one can switch from LS to DS in the a blink of eye is the reason behind the training. The Jedi are told to push aside all their emotions because they are what the Force feeds on and an act started with good intent,meant with good intent,can be changed based on the what the Jedi is feeling when the act is carried out. Using the Force to protect another is not DS.

[213374U]

I can see a Jedi Master perhaps not using it to protect themself from harm,but where has it ever been said a Jedi Master would sit back and let innocent people die instead of using the Force to stop the attacker?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Read Star Wars: Jedi: Yoda.

[SilverSun]

When was it shown that Yoda set back and did nothing when he could have done something to stop it?

 

Am I missing something,or are you talking about when he was on Dagobah? Because if that's what you're talking about,not a lot he could do,he had to stay alive so Luke and/or Leia could be trained. If he died,there was no one left to train either of them the galaxy would have been FUBARed. Not the same thing.

 

I said sit back and watch when he/she could have stopped the attacker,in which Yoda could not,until he trained either Skywalker child.

[213374U]

Star Wars: Jedi - Yoda is a comic by dark horse. It's set during the Clone Wars. You want to understand what I'm talking about, read below:

 

 

At some point in the story, master Yoda and some padawan are cornered by armed soldiers. The soldiers attack and the padawan fights back while Yoda does nothing, even at the urgings of the padawan to help him. At some point of the fight, the soldiers overpower the padawan and mortally wound him. Only then master Yoda uses the force to repel the attackers, but it's already too late for the padawan.

 

 

There's the evidence you wanted.

[jaguars4ever]

Star Wars: Jedi - Yoda is a comic by dark horse. It's set during the Clone Wars. You want to understand what I'm talking about, read below:

 

 

At some point in the story, master Yoda and some padawan are cornered by armed soldiers. The soldiers attack and the padawan fights back while Yoda does nothing, even at the urgings of the padawan to help him. At some point of the fight, the soldiers overpower the padawan and mortally wound him. Only then master Yoda uses the force to repel the attackers, but it's already too late for the padawan.

 

 

There's the evidence you wanted.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

But what were the circumstances:

 

 

Was Yoda training the padawan/teaching him a lesson & how old exactly a padawan are we talking about? Also, were the soldiers directly attacking Yoda initially or just the padawan?

 

 

Nobody saw NOTHING, especially no highlight editing! "

[SilverSun]

Interesting,hadn't read that.

 

 

One case however doesn't prove that to be rule. Was the Padawan without a weapon? And Yoda did step in after he was hurt correct? Meaning when the person was unable to defend himself Yoda drove away the attacker. Different then watching a Sith strike an innocent family who can't be reached in time to use stop the blow with your saber.Also a pointless waste a life and one EU author's idea of an interesting story in one comic,how often do you see something like that?

 

[213374U]

But what were the circumstances:

 

 

Was Yoda training the padawan/teaching him a lesson & how old exactly a padawan are we talking about?  Also, were the soldiers directly attacking Yoda initially or just the padawan?

 

 

Nobody saw NOTHING, especially no highlight editing!  "

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No, that was no lesson that went bad. They were attempting to escape from a palace and after the padawan had been doublecrossed by some politicians, they had been cornered. There is no indication of the age of the padawan, but judging by the looks, I'd say he was about 16.

 

 

Interesting,hadn't read that.

 

 

One case however doesn't prove that to be rule.  Was the Padawan without a weapon? And Yoda did step in after he was hurt correct? Meaning when the person was unable to defend himself Yoda drove away the attacker. Different then watching a Sith strike an innocent family who can't be reached in time to use stop the blow with your saber.Also a pointless waste a life and one EU author's idea of an interesting story in one comic,how often do you see something like that?

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

So, basically what you're saying is that because the padawan was armed, it was right for Yoda to let him be killed by soldiers. Yeah right. Yoda steps in when the padawan falls because then there's no one to cover his own selfish ass anymore. If he hadn't done something, he would have been overwhelmed as well.

 

 

There's other matter, however. There are no examples of Jedi using the Force to harm others, no matter the circumstances, unless they are darksiders. I have provided one example to support my arguments, you have provided none.

 

It turns out the EU is canon as far as it doesn't go against the movies. Moreover, the dark horse comics are defining the main plots of the clone wars, probably on guidelines provided by Lucasfilm. Maybe it's an EU author's idea of how the Force must be used, but as for now, it's canon. I didn't like it very much myself, but my opinion doesn't count when it comes to defining what is SW.

[SilverSun]

 

That line again,there is a world of difference between steping into a fight between to armed individuals and stoping one from killing another who is unable to defend themself.Protection of life that is unable to defend itself is not DS.

 

 

There's other matter, however. There are no examples of Jedi using the Force to harm others, no matter the circumstances, unless they are darksiders. I have provided one example to support my arguments, you have provided none.

 

Luke,ROTJ Force Choke to Kill the guards. Say what you will about him not being trained or whatever,he still did so and he still not slip to the DS for doing so. He used a "Dark Side Power" to help save his friends,and that's not even a case where his friends were in direct danger at that moment,however if he did not get in there the chances are they would have died. However there was no anger in him when he preformed the act,he was in control of himself and his emotions.

 

t turns out the EU is canon as far as it doesn't go against the movies. Moreover, the dark horse comics are defining the main plots of the clone wars, probably on guidelines provided by Lucasfilm. Maybe it's an EU author's idea of how the Force must be used, but as for now, it's canon. I didn't like it very much myself, but my opinion doesn't count when it comes to defining what is SW.

 

The NJO is also cannon,and isn't there something in that series with Jacen finding the "True Meaning" of the Force? Or at least a new way of looking at it? Where the Force is neither dark nor light but is based on how a person uses it? Or something like that.

[SilverSun]

I retract my statement,on killing the guards,after checking my copy of ROTJ the book he did not kill them,my mistake. However he did use the Power.

[OrganisedChaos]

I retract my statement,on killing the guards,after checking my copy of ROTJ the book he did not kill them,my mistake. However he did use the Power.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

What happened to them then? In the film it sure looked like he killed them, them clutching their necks and falling to the floor like that. Did he just stun them?

[SilverSun]

I got it backwards when I brought it up earlier,in the movies it seems that he killed them as they fall against the wall and go limp.

 

In the book he does use Force Choke on them,they fall to their Knees and he walks by them. Once he's away from them he stops using the power and they get up and think better about going after him.

[213374U]

That line again,there is a world of difference between steping into a fight between to armed individuals and stoping one from killing another who is unable to defend themself.Protection of life that is unable to defend itself is not DS.

That is your opinion. You have nothing canon to support it, while there are plenty of examples which point otherwise.

 

Luke,ROTJ Force Choke to Kill the guards. Say what you will about him not being trained or whatever,he still did so and he still not slip to the DS for doing so. He used a "Dark Side Power" to help save his friends,and that's not even a case where his friends were in direct danger at that moment,however if he did not get in there the chances are they would have died. However there was no anger in him when he preformed the act,he was in control of himself and his emotions.

You admit it yourself. Luke used a dark side power. From the moment it harms other living being, it is the DS. I'm glad you finally understand it.

 

The NJO is also cannon,and isn't there something in that series with Jacen finding the "True Meaning" of the Force? Or at least a new way of looking at it? Where the Force is neither dark nor light but is based on how a person uses it? Or something like that.

Your point being? I never said the Force is light or dark. It depends on how it is used. Again, using it to harm others, no matter the circumstances, is DS.

[OrganisedChaos]

In the book he does use Force Choke on them,they fall to their Knees and he walks by them. Once he's away from them he stops using the power and they get up and think better about going after him.

 

Yeah being chocked does make people more passive- that imperial commander in 'a new hope', the guy in the bar on tatooene in KOTOR was great. "The man will not look you in the eye".

[SilverSun]

That is your opinion. You have nothing canon to support it, while there are plenty of examples which point otherwise.

 

You gave one exmaple,one doesn't equal plenty.

 

You admit it yourself. Luke used a dark side power. From the moment it harms other living being, it is the DS. I'm glad you finally understand it.

 

Please not the quotes around "Dark Side Power". I admit he used Choke, there are no dark or light powers,all in how they're used.

 

Your point being? I never said the Force is light or dark. It depends on how it is used. Again, using it to harm others, no matter the circumstances, is DS.

 

Where is it stated that using the Force to cause harm is out right DS? I've seen things that have said using it in Anger is DS,using it with Hate is DS,never the word "harm" is DS. Both sides "harm" the other in form or another with the Force.

 

Yeah being chocked does make people more passive...

 

Pry not so much the being choked as the being choked without the person lifting a finger.