Happy Voting!

[Meshugger]

What i'm more concern with is the rich/poor ratio. Hopefully it won't be 150 millionares and 150 million poor in the future. That's not a foundation of stable society IMO.

you're making a slippery slope argument, i.e. not based on any real facts. furthermore, welfare is precisely the mechanism that keeps poor people poor.

 

This wasn't the issue, it's more of the avarage american availability to healthcare that doesn't make him/her broke from being sick

yes, it is the issue. this is the very reason some average americans don't have insurance. if we didn't have these predatory practices in place by foreign governments, things would be cheap enough to afford.

 

I'm concerned with voters voting for a candidate based on religious morals than more important key-issues.

given that 95% of the population believes in a higher power, why is this an issue? religion is probably the number one driving force in the world, to think that people wouldn't vote based on that is naive at best.

 

Almost agreed, sometimes money is the key when it comes to give students up-todate books, proper renovation and building a better enviroment studying. Of course, there should be good teachers that inspire students to learn, and the ability of critical thinking, which doesn't always come from the sheer amount of money.

there's plenty of money already. unfortunately, as with all government run social programs, they are so horribly inefficient they can't function properly. why is it that private schools on average cost less per student than public yet consistently perform better in testing?

 

also, government regulations do not inspire teachers, good or bad. they instead create an environment where passing the standardized test is all that matters. critical thinking is traded in for passing the next test. furthermore, self centered organizations such as the NEA put teacher equality at a higher level than performance. any unionized organization is only as good as its lowest common denominator, or worst teacher as it is. everybody is paid the same, so why try?

 

uh, safest country in the world to work in... OSHA anyone?

 

Hopefully it will work, but i haven't seen any figures that indicate that the amount of fringe benefits for the regular worker have risen, not to mention that people have to have 2-3 jobs in order to support their family.

uh, what's this got to do with being a safe place to work? i think you misplaced this reply... btw, people don't need 2-3 jobs to support their families, they need 2-3 jobs to support their families and maintain a higher standard of living than they can otherwise afford. big difference.

 

Well, that's just a matter of opinion on how much conservation of the enviroment that you want to do. I would like to do more, just be in the safer seat.

perhaps, but that still doesn't mean the bush administration ignores the environment. the environmentalists would have us believe the BA is kowtowing to big oil and other industry pressure, when in fact, most of the harsh regulations environmentalists would impose would crush our economy. change is good, and preserving the environment is as well. however, if such changes hurt us economically, we become less efficient and, in the end, do more damage to the environment in the long run.

 

Showing the world the middle finger isn't a solution either. Most things are grey, and need much compromising between nations in order to solve problems. It's not exactly that you want to go similar diplomatic climate that existed in the pre-WWII era.

we're not showing the world the middle finger. we're defending our interests. the other nations were compromised by their ties to middle east oil. how are they qualified to judge our actions? compromise is fine, but it needs to be reasonable.

 

also, there's an obvious agenda there (weakening our position) that can't be overlooked. it's not the US' fault that we're more efficient, produce more and enjoy a higher standard of living than most. if the rest of the world wants the same things, than maybe they ought to pay attention to how we got here...

 

 

What happened to compassionate conservative image? With that attitude, it's the angry mob that pulls all the strings on the expense of the other. That's not strength, that's a weakness.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

not sure how this is relevant, but all i said is that there isn't nearly as much of a "divide" as kerry-edwards would have you believe. liberal and conservative labels are just that: labels indicating which side of a fence you're standing on. the fence moves around, too. the divide was proposed as a way to wedge away swing votes and make them feel like they had to "choose a side"... mostly a political ploy. most americans are quite moderate (conservative to europe) and will always be that way. the only real split is iraq and that's fueled mostly by the media...

 

btw, the "angry mob" scenario you speak of is the reason we are not a democracy, but a republic. furthermore, you may scoff at the republicans "pulling your strings" but what exactly happens when a democrat raises my taxes? basically, the "angry mob" is telling me that my personal property must be used to help others, whether i like it or not. it goes both ways kumquat...

 

taks

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, it seems that we both have our separate views over these matters in our own little spin alley. I'll probably never agree with you, since these are idealistic matters mostly. To summorize this election: Gays suck and spending rocks.

 

P.S. What's up with the "it goes both ways kumquat"?

[taks]

should know better than what?

taks

[taks]

P.S. What's up with the "it goes both ways kumquat"?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

oops... by the time i got to the bottom i thought i was quoting kumquat, assuming that's what you were referring to?

 

taks

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

I am sure it has, but this is the 21st century.  We should know better.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

People always take their ideologies with them whatever carrer path they choose.

You cant just take off what have been your lifes foundations like you can an out of style jacket.

[mkreku]

good for you.  one of the reasons, btw, that the EU has twice as many people and 1/3 the GDP of the US.  we don't average 80 hours a week, either.  less than 40, actually.  if you're working 80 hours a week, maybe you should a) learn a trade or b) sacrifice part of your life like i did and get an education.

 

yes, btw, our quality of life is MUCH higher than in europe.  as a matter of fact, the "poverty line" in the US is typical of an average european.  just because yours isn't doesn't mean we're all suffering.

 

taks

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Could you back these statements up with some facts? Some kind of link where I, too, can read about how the average european has the same amount of money as someone below the "poverty line" in the US.

 

I'm from Sweden and I've been to the US. I bought a 30 day Greyhound pass and went all over the eastern USA. I have been to 16 countries in Europe, and I sure as hell don't feel like the "quality of life is MUCH higher" in USA than in Europe. Perhaps in countries like Romania, but not compared to England, France, Germany, Spain, Italy, all of Scandinavia and so on. Compared to Sweden, for example, USA basically sucked in my opinion (simple stuff like road signs, quality of roads, quality of public transportation, food quality, hotel quality, toilet/shower quality etc.). I do, however, love the american mentality. People seemed to be extremely friendly, generous and open-minded when it came to foreigners ("You have a place to stay? You can crash at my place.." - said by a university student in Austin, Texas after five minutes of talking in a public park). Unlike Sweden where people are considered cold and difficult to get to know..

[kumquatq3]

Apparently KARL ROVE sees some evidence in this. KARL ****ING ROVE

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

yeah, Karl ****ING SPOKESMAN. he's a spokesman for god's sake. he's citing ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE. this is all... get over it.

 

Spokesman???!?!? No, he's one of Bushs top political strategist. It's his job to know how to play with the people and get votes. Apprently he kinda knows what he is doing too.

 

they also thought, wrongly, that all the new and young registrants would vote heavily. they did not.

 

Actaully, they did vote pretty heavily compared to the past, but so did everyone else. Hence why they stayed at 17% of the total vote.

[Gromnir]

I am not saying religious folks shouldn't go into politics, but it shouldn't motivate the politics and governmental issues.  Religion is a private affair and needs to be a private affair.  God has no place in the White House.  If I want to live in a religious state I would move to the Vatican City.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

please give examples... but please note that Presidents and Congressmen has been clergy, and God has been invoked by democrats and republicans and federalists and anti-federalists. furthermore, one wonders how you propose to separate religious and secular issues... abortion, school vouchers, stem cell research, cloning. heck, keep in mind that it were religious women who initially got the anti-slavery movement going. we got a representative form of government, and most of our peoples is religious.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

p.s. again, we thinks you should look into discovering just how many atheists has won the nobel prize for physics. you got the typical college student's notions 'bout religion... which is fine. you is 'posed to question things in college... but do not be so arrogant as to think you got the answers.

[kumquatq3]

P.S. What's up with the "it goes both ways kumquat"?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

oops... by the time i got to the bottom i thought i was quoting kumquat, assuming that's what you were referring to?

 

taks

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

O, I see how it is, all us damn Liberals are alike to you huh?

[taks]

How was that flaming?  Simply reporting anecdotal evidence.  I know more than a few engineers.  They're pretty bad.  Sounds like I hit a nerve.

hit a nerve nothing... you directly implied that i was socially inept and lacking in a sex life as an argument against my case. that's an ad-hominem attack that was uncalled for, and nothing more than a flame. whether i'm socially inept (or any other engineer for that matter) is irrelevant to the discussion. you also tried (unconvincingly) to imply that i had poor grammar, lessening my argument, which i've still not figured out. that was ad-hominem attack #1.

 

taks

[Meshugger]

P.S. What's up with the "it goes both ways kumquat"?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

oops... by the time i got to the bottom i thought i was quoting kumquat, assuming that's what you were referring to?

 

taks

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Heh, no problem.

 

To add to engineers being more conservative and the other blablabla...guess what, i'm an engineer and my views would apply as "liberal"

[Commissar]

How was that flaming?  Simply reporting anecdotal evidence.  I know more than a few engineers.  They're pretty bad.  Sounds like I hit a nerve.

hit a nerve nothing... you directly implied that i was socially inept and lacking in a sex life as an argument against my case. that's an ad-hominem attack that was uncalled for, and nothing more than a flame. whether i'm socially inept (or any other engineer for that matter) is irrelevant to the discussion. you also tried (unconvincingly) to imply that i had poor grammar, lessening my argument, which i've still not figured out. that was ad-hominem attack #1.

 

taks

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No, I implied that most engineers are socially inept. If you happen to be, my condolences. But I didn't make any observations about you, which is something you seem unable to avoid. Oops! That was my first. Guess I have to plant the flag of Jesus, trumpet my degrees from the University of Phoenix Online, and vote Republican now.

 

Seriously, though, as much as I love your proper use of all the various terms for all the various logical fallacies, I took that class long before you did and I am aware of what I'm doing. Mostly, it's watching a conservative try and talk his way around thirty years of political trend-observing by suggesting the group of people he knows is contrary to the rule, and therefore the rule does not apply to anyone.

 

It's funny.

 

Finally, if you really want me to go back and take a red pen to all of your posts, I'll do it. Just not right now, since I'm actually (supposed to be) doing the exact same thing at work.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

To add to engineers being more conservative and the other blablabla...guess what, i'm an engineer and my views would apply as "liberal"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Perhaps you are not rich enough yet Give it a couple of years.

[Commissar]

Heh, no problem.

 

To add to engineers being more conservative and the other blablabla...guess what, i'm an engineer and my views would apply as "liberal"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

But...but that's impossible! Taks proved it! Y'all are super-analytical and whatnot! And we all know that Democrats have a monopoly on stupidity! Lord knows, I've never met a local yokel with more fingers than teeth and more teeth than IQ points who was firmly committed to God, guns, and the fight against gays.

[taks]

Could you back these statements up with some facts? Some kind of link where I, too, can read about how the average european has the same amount of money as someone below the "poverty line" in the US.

where did i say they have the same amount of money? money != living standards. also, the cost of living is so much higher in europe than the US average, direct comparisons don't wash.

 

I'm from Sweden and I've been to the US. I bought a 30 day Greyhound pass and went all over the eastern USA.

sweden is on par with the US, actually... but sweden isn't really "average" compared to the rest of europe, is it? the eastern seabord is a mess when you're on the highways. it's packed. 100 million (or more) people live in about 1/10th of the US... greyhound didn't take you out to where everybody lives, either, nor did it put you in average american homes...

 

I have been to 16 countries in Europe, and I sure as hell don't  feel like the "quality of life is MUCH higher" in USA than in Europe. Perhaps in countries like Romania, but not compared to England, France, Germany, Spain, Italy, all of Scandinavia and so on. Compared to Sweden, for example, USA basically sucked in my opinion (simple stuff like road signs, quality of roads, quality of public transportation, food quality, hotel quality, toilet/shower quality etc.).

it really does depend on where you visit. just "visiting" urban areas that are depressed, on the east coast no less, doesn't really provide a very good indication of the whole of the US. nor does simply travelling around europe. hotels have nothing to do with our standard of living, either.

 

I do, however, love the american mentality. People seemed to be extremely friendly, generous and open-minded when it came to foreigners ("You have a place to stay? You can crash at my place.." - said by a university student in Austin, Texas after five minutes of talking in a public park). Unlike Sweden where people are considered cold and difficult to get to know..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

i suppose that depends on where you are, too. i've heard NYC is terrible in that respect. in the springs, where i live, people are pretty friendly. i got stuck in the ice the other day and two guys hopped out to push me back onto the downhill lane. i did the same for some guy in the school parking lot the other night.

 

taks

[taks]

But...but that's impossible!  Taks proved it!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

no, taks said most engineers are conservative, then followed it up with a statement that most he knows are actually libertarian... please read carefully before misquoting me.

 

taks

[Commissar]

But...but that's impossible!  Taks proved it!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

no, taks said most engineers are conservative, then followed it up with a statement that most he knows are actually libertarian... please read carefully before misquoting me.

 

taks

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

And I still say that's some pretty...well, we'll be generous and say "lacking" evidence to prove that higher education does not, in fact, tend to have more of a liberalizing effect on those who benefit from it.

[Gromnir]

"No, I implied that most engineers are socially inept. If you happen to be, my condolences. But I didn't make any observations about you, which is something you seem unable to avoid. Oops!"

 

...

 

ever seen photos of the bonnie and clyde car after the cops shot it full o' holes? we read stuff likes the above and get all twitchy to do something similar.

 

oh well... we let taks do all the work.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[taks]

O, I see how it is, all us damn Liberals are alike to you huh?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

hehe, nope... just lost track of my quote...

 

meshugger...

and, again, i never said all engineers are conservative/libertarian. just most. tricritical is essentially an engineer and, like you, openly liberal. i don't particularly hold it against him.

 

oh, and just because i hold a lot of conservative principles, commisar, does not mean a) i own or wish to own a gun, b) worship god or c) fight against gays. hardly a conservative, actually. you may have taken that logic class before me, but not much before me. you will also note that i refrain from such attacks nor have i committed any fallacy in my debate. i don't think it is necessary to cast generalizations towards you nor insult you just because i don't agree with you. i point out your attacks as logical fallacies because they are apparent and indicate a lack of a sound argument.

 

Mostly, it's watching a conservative try and talk his way around thirty years of political trend-observing by suggesting the group of people he knows is contrary to the rule, and therefore the rule does not apply to anyone.

no, i said the rule does not apply to EVERYONE. 25 years of trend observing allows me to make that case rather easily.

 

and please, pick apart my posts with a red pen. as noted, this is a BBS and i do use "spoken" language when appropriate... colloquialisms are not against the rules... nor do they indicate poor grammar. attack away.

 

taks

[Weiser_Cain]

Did I miss the part where we figured out how we were going to pull the country together? 'cause I still hate bush.

[taks]

ever seen photos of the bonnie and clyde car after the cops shot it full o' holes?  we read stuff likes the above and get all twitchy to do something similar.

 

oh well... we let taks do all the work.

 

HA! Good Fun!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

hehe... all good fun, eh?

 

taks

[Meshugger]

O, I see how it is, all us damn Liberals are alike to you huh?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

hehe, nope... just lost track of my quote...

 

meshugger...

and, again, i never said all engineers are conservative/libertarian. just most. tricritical is essentially an engineer and, like you, openly liberal. i don't particularly hold it against him.

 

taks

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No harm taken.

 

I should've quoted correctly, but laziness caught me. My notation as an engineer with liberal views was just a funny sidenote to the discussion as a whole.

[Weiser_Cain]

*gets out of the way of all those smart southern engineers*

[kumquatq3]

Did I miss the part where we figured out how we were going to pull the country together? 'cause I still hate bush.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Did you miss where I posted tha tbush just requested to raise the cap on the debt, the day after the election?

 

O wait, that doesn't help at all.

 

Look, bad things (in our opinion) are going to happen, we los tthe election. Just hope that the demos in the senate ban together to stop the really bad things. That and some of the justices can hang on for 4 more years...

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Did I miss the part where we figured out how we were going to pull the country together? 'cause I still hate bush.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It's an aquired taste :"> er never mind.

 

Countries are never united except in times of war or following really awful events.

But they still manage to muddle through anyway.

 

Perhaps if you made the reasons for your dissalusionment more apparent ? Or why you think you would suffer under Bush.

[Commissar]

no, i said the rule does not apply to EVERYONE.  25 years of trend observing allows me to make that case rather easily.

 

and please, pick apart my posts with a red pen.  as noted, this is a BBS and i do use "spoken" language when appropriate... colloquialisms are not against the rules... nor do they indicate poor grammar.  attack away.

 

taks

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Wrong. You did not say the rule does not apply to everyone. You said it was bull****. Want me to go back and point it out?

 

You could've done the logical thing and say it doesn't apply to everyone, but instead you chose to toss the whole statement out the window as baseless.

 

So, I'll say it again: higher education tends to have a liberalizing effect on those who benefit from it.

 

Tendency is not absolute. I repeatedly made allowances for folks such as yourself and the crowd you hang with. I never claimed everyone with a degree was a liberal because of it. I thought it was a wholly amiable discussion until you decided to go on 'n call a long-proven fact bull****, but hey...to each their own.

 

Oh, out of curiosity, where does calling someone's assertion bull**** fit into your whole Socratic impression? Give me a moment, as I need to thumb through my Fallacies Handbook so I too can make use of Latin.