9/11-1973 darkness falls over Chile

[taks]

not sure. the result of a pure democracy can be thought of as either anarchy or totalitarianism depending on the theory you prescribe to.

 

taks

[Kaftan Barlast]

while on the surface said governmental leaders may be elected democratically, they are still performing the will of the state, not the will of the people comprising the state.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Parlamentarian democracy in a nutshell, just like Dakoth pointed out. We are all living in the illusion of democracy, the illusion that we have some kind of power over society and our lives, beyond deciding which party we vote for.

 

All the systems mankind has created for itself- democracy, totalitarianism, capitalism, communism -are all severly crippled temporary solutions to a problem we may never find the real solution to.

[Dakoth]

while on the surface said governmental leaders may be elected democratically, they are still performing the will of the state, not the will of the people comprising the state.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Parlamentarian democracy in a nutshell, just like Dakoth pointed out. We are all living in the illusion of democracy, the illusion that we have some kind of power over society and our lives, beyond deciding which party we vote for.

 

All the systems mankind has created for itself- democracy, totalitarianism, capitalism, communism -are all severly crippled temporary solutions to a problem we may never find the real solution to.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Amen Kaftan. Through every government one thing remains consistant the few(rich people if you will) make the rules for the many. We in America have no more say in what our government does than the common people of China. <_<

[Weiser_Cain]

Parlamentarian democracy in a nutshell, just like Dakoth pointed out. We are all living in the illusion of democracy, the illusion that we have some kind of power over society and our lives, beyond deciding which party we vote for.

 

All the systems mankind has created for itself- democracy, totalitarianism, capitalism, communism -are all severly crippled temporary solutions to a problem we may never find the real solution to.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually I can make a difference, as a citizen and by running for office.

[Weiser_Cain]

We in America have no more say in what our government does than the common people of China. <_<

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's just utter nonsense.

[Judge Hades]

The United States was founded by hipocrisy. It is a fact that is undeniable. I just find it funny that a bunch of slave owners had the nerve to write "All men are created equal" and all that other bullshat.

 

There is only one constant in the US. The United States Governement will do what it wants, when it wants, and everyone who is in the way is damned. Its been that way for over 200 years and its not going to change until the US Gov is taken out.

[Dakoth]

We in America have no more say in what our government does than the common people of China. <_<

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's just utter nonsense.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Really you think so? What is the biggest office you can attain with out the backing of large amounts of money? Do you call George W. and give him advice on a daily basis on how he should handle things? Yes we vote people in and out of office but when they are there they have the ability to do as they see fit. The war in Iraq right now is a perfect example.( no I don't want to argue about it but it illustrates a point.)

[Judge Hades]

Hell, we don't even have direct control who will be president. We still have an antiquated Electorial College that can vote the opposite of the popular vote.

[Kaftan Barlast]

Actually I can make a difference, as a citizen and by running for office.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

But it is a very hard and long road to take, by the time you have managed to gain enough politcial authority to actually have a chance ov getting your agenda through, the question will be long forgotten. This is one of the basic faults of representative democracy, it just takes too long. And if you agenda only concerns a minority, chances are you wont even be heard.

 

You actually have just about as much power as the chinese man, who is free to join the party and make his way up the ranks in order to gain political momentum.

[Monte Carlo]

We in America have no more say in what our government does than the common people of China.

 

Easily, by far, the silliest and most offensive thing I've read on the Internet this month.

 

Cheers

MC

[Weiser_Cain]

Really you think so?  What is the biggest office you can attain with out the backing of large amounts of money?  Do you call George W. and give him advice on a daily basis on how he should handle things?  Yes we vote people in and out of office but when they are there they have the ability to do as they see fit.  The war in Iraq right now is a perfect example.( no I don't want to argue about it but it illustrates a point.)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Personal income? None. The system is awash with money, I see no reason to reinvent the wheel. I can't call bush but I can my harass local representatives. I personaly don't think he should be watching polls to make his decisions, there is something insincere about inacting policies you don't really belive in. Let really get to know the real bush before we kick the bum out.

[Weiser_Cain]

Actually I can make a difference, as a citizen and by running for office.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

But it is a very hard and long road to take, by the time you have managed to gain enough politcial authority to actually have a chance ov getting your agenda through, the question will be long forgotten. This is one of the basic faults of representative democracy, it just takes too long. And if you agenda only concerns a minority, chances are you wont even be heard.

 

You actually have just about as much power as the chinese man, who is free to join the party and make his way up the ranks in order to gain political momentum.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not so long, and if what I wanted was so important why would I forget it? Lets not forget there is one party in china and real consequences for not following the party line.

[Monte Carlo]

Why do people think that Democracy is monolithic? Why do people feel that their influence and/ or participation is once every 'X' years at a polling booth?

 

If you don't like George W Bush being president, there is a stack of things you can do about it. The most fundamental, of course, is that you don't vote for him.

 

However, you could also:

 

* Start your own website/ newsletter/ discussion group/ lobbying group

 

* Join an alternative political party

 

* Join the Republican party and agitate for an alternative

 

* Become the CEO of MegaCom and not support the Democrats/ Republicans/ Whoever

 

* Become the Director of Wealthy American Vegans for Justice and do the liberal version of what the CEO of MegaCom just did

 

* Be a war hero, come home and decry the war you just fought in

 

* Put on a batman costume and cheekily penetrate the security of an Important Place

 

* Choose not to buy certain products and services for ideological, moral or ethical reasons (this applies to those on left, right and centre BTW)

 

* Get involved in the Media

 

* Get involved in a pressure group

 

* Stacks of other stuff

 

 

None of these things will, necessarily, dethrone George Bush Jnr. But you'll have had your say. Done your bit. Moved, in a tiny way, the debate in a certain direction. Who knows? You could have, via your efforts, persuaded a half dozen people in Florida to vote for the Democrats, prompting genuine hanging chad apocalypse. You could have, without knowing it, helped a new Republican faction nudge their way slowly towards power, usurping the Neocons.

 

My point is that participation is the essence of civic democracy. It is what sets the West from the rest. Chinese people share a fraction of these freedoms, for which millions have fought and died.

 

I'm not an idealist: our flawed democracy is the "best worst" system. But where would you rather live? Iran? Russia? China?

 

Thought not.

 

Cheers

MC

[Kaftan Barlast]

Not so long, and if what I wanted was so important why would I forget it? Lets not forget there is one party in  china and real consequences for not following the party line.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

 

You will be middle-aged before you have any chance of getting into the senate or the white house were the real positions of power are. If you for instance, wanted to american companies to provide better working conditions for their outsourced factories in southeast asia, the chances are that question will be long forgotten by then, or that things have changed so much that its simply no longer up to date.

 

The Chinese have the same choice as we do- of either working through the system and let ourselves be ruled by it, or suffer the consequences of opposing it. In China you will be imprisoned and/or executed, in the US you get away with being declared an unreliable dissident and ostracized.

[Dakoth]

Really you think so?  What is the biggest office you can attain with out the backing of large amounts of money?  Do you call George W. and give him advice on a daily basis on how he should handle things?  Yes we vote people in and out of office but when they are there they have the ability to do as they see fit.  The war in Iraq right now is a perfect example.( no I don't want to argue about it but it illustrates a point.)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Personal income? None. The system is awash with money, I see no reason to reinvent the wheel. I can't call bush but I can my harass local representatives. I personaly don't think he should be watching polls to make his decisions, there is something insincere about inacting policies you don't really belive in. Let really get to know the real bush before we kick the bum out.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am also for Bush, but calling your local officials is the same as having no voice at all. Have you ever been in the minority on an issue and called your local rep? The only way to get things done is to threaten to vote them out which unfortunatly carries little weight till election day. As for the system being awash with money you are right if you are with the 2 biggest parties and partially tow the party line, how many 30000 dollar a year people run for office on the independant platform for federal government? Not many because the money they would raise would be to little to run a national campaign. The biggest difference between us and China is the personal liberties our government lets us have not the amount of say we have in our government. Case in point it is in the constitution that we have the right to bare arms, yet it is illegal to own a handgun in the city of chicago, Chicago police officers are not even allowed to carry handguns off duty. I dissagree with this yet I am a conservative republican in a state dominated by liberal Democrats. What voice do I truly have? No matter how much complaining to a representative I do very little gets changed. If I ran for office still very little would get changed as everything I brought about would more than likely get shot down.

 

Now before this gets to out of hand I think the US is the greatest country to live in there is. I also understand that money is power and that is something most of us don't have in abundance. So until there is a government where money is not the over all determining factor in who gets elected our processes will be flawed.

[Sarjahurmaaja.]

"I'm not an idealist: our flawed democracy is the 'best worst' system. But where would you rather live? Iran? Russia? China?"

 

Finland. Oh, wait, I already do.

 

Go small governments!

[Dakoth]

Why do people think that Democracy is monolithic? Why do people feel that their influence and/ or participation is once every 'X' years at a polling booth?

 

If you don't like George W Bush being president, there is a stack of things you can do about it. The most fundamental, of course, is that you don't vote for him.

 

However, you could also:

 

* Start your own website/ newsletter/ discussion group/ lobbying group

 

* Join an alternative political party

 

* Join the Republican party and agitate for an alternative

 

* Become the CEO of MegaCom and not support the Democrats/ Republicans/ Whoever

 

* Become the Director of Wealthy American Vegans for Justice and do the liberal version of what the CEO of MegaCom just did

 

* Be a war hero, come home and decry the war you just fought in

 

* Put on a batman costume and cheekily penetrate the security of an Important Place

 

* Choose not to buy certain products and services for ideological, moral or ethical reasons (this applies to those on left, right and centre BTW)

 

* Get involved in the Media

 

* Get involved in a pressure group

 

* Stacks of other stuff

 

 

None of these things will, necessarily, dethrone George Bush Jnr. But you'll have had your say. Done your bit. Moved, in a tiny way, the debate in a certain direction. Who knows? You could have, via your efforts, persuaded a half dozen people in Florida to vote for the Democrats, prompting genuine hanging chad apocalypse. You could have, without knowing it, helped a new Republican faction nudge their way slowly towards power, usurping the Neocons.

 

My point is that participation is the essence of civic democracy. It is what sets the West from the rest. Chinese people share a fraction of these freedoms, for which millions have fought and died.

 

I'm not an idealist: our flawed democracy is the "best worst" system. But where would you rather live? Iran? Russia? China?

 

Thought not.

 

Cheers

MC

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Monte the only problem is you show no control, you are just exerting influence. Nothing you said directly controls what is done in our government it just tries to leverage them in to doing as we see fit. That was my point you have no direct control of the direction of this country, just like the common person in china. Can we speak out about our government, hold protests, start petitions while the Chinese can not? Yes but they in no way directly effect the decisions of our government.

 

Edit: As I stated there is no other place I would rather live but I do recognise the American democratic system as flawed.

[taks]

Parlamentarian democracy in a nutshell, just like Dakoth pointed out. We are all living in the illusion of democracy, the illusion that we have some kind of power over society and our lives, beyond deciding which party we vote for.

 

All the systems mankind has created for itself- democracy, totalitarianism, capitalism, communism -are all severly crippled temporary solutions to a problem we may never find the real solution to.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

first of all, that has nothing to do with the oxymoron notion... you did not address my counter that democratic vs. totalitarian communism is essentially the same thing.

 

secondly, capitalism, totalitarianism, communism and democracy are all principles that can't be directly compared. totalitarianism and democracy are both governmental forms, though neither dictates socio-economic policy (though both may, depending upon implementation). neither encompasses a "system" in that they only define one aspect of our lives (type of government). capitalism, however, does not technically dictate social or government policy other than self reliance and a hands-off approach to government. in the end, however, capitalism is not a system developed by man, but the result of the free market concept. i.e. it is more of an observation of the behavior of free market principles rather than the creation of a socio-economic ideal. communism IS, however, a system invented by man. it is not a result of anything other than man trying to envision the perfect society. it is not an observation, but an ideal, invented within and existing only in philosophical debate.

 

taks

[taks]

Monte the only problem is you show no control, you are just exerting influence.  Nothing you said directly controls what is done in our government it just tries to leverage them in to doing as we see fit.  That was my point you  have no direct control of the direction of this country, just like the common person in china.  Can we speak out about our government, hold protests, start petitions while the Chinese can not?  Yes but they in no way directly effect the decisions of our government.

 

Edit:  As I stated there is no other place I would rather live but I do recognise the American democratic system as flawed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

but if you had control, then the voices of everyone else would be lost. that's the point of the republic... our voices join together to elect certain officials, and they speak for us. when they stop speaking for us, we elect new officials. control is NOT the goal of a democracy, only influence.

 

in spite of the notion put forth by several in here, it really does work even at a national level. legislators regularly get voted out, and replacements step up from the crowd.

 

also, just because most of us don't have the means or wherewithal to become an elected official does not mean we can't do our bit. MC points out many valid options. rather than sitting about whining about how bad things are, why not try to make a difference? if you do, at least then you can say you tried. how do you think the national review got started? moveon.org? people and their ideas started all of these things. not all from excessive wealth, either (bill clinton was not rich by any means, one of the poorest presidents in our history, actually).

 

dissenting opinion, btw, does not label somebody an unreliable dissident or cause them to be ostracized. even fanatics such as michael moore or rush limbaugh (one on the left, the other on the right) still command a large audience when they speak...

 

learn a little about our system and you'll be surprised at how much influence the common man can actually have. sitting back and complaining without action is not the answer.

 

taks

[Dakoth]

Monte the only problem is you show no control, you are just exerting influence.  Nothing you said directly controls what is done in our government it just tries to leverage them in to doing as we see fit.  That was my point you  have no direct control of the direction of this country, just like the common person in china.  Can we speak out about our government, hold protests, start petitions while the Chinese can not?  Yes but they in no way directly effect the decisions of our government.

 

Edit:  As I stated there is no other place I would rather live but I do recognise the American democratic system as flawed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

but if you had control, then the voices of everyone else would be lost. that's the point of the republic... our voices join together to elect certain officials, and they speak for us. when they stop speaking for us, we elect new officials. control is NOT the goal of a democracy, only influence.

 

in spite of the notion put forth by several in here, it really does work even at a national level. legislators regularly get voted out, and replacements step up from the crowd.

 

also, just because most of us don't have the means or wherewithal to become an elected official does not mean we can't do our bit. MC points out many valid options. rather than sitting about whining about how bad things are, why not try to make a difference? if you do, at least then you can say you tried. how do you think the national review got started? moveon.org? people and their ideas started all of these things. not all from excessive wealth, either (bill clinton was not rich by any means, one of the poorest presidents in our history, actually).

 

dissenting opinion, btw, does not label somebody an unreliable dissident or cause them to be ostracized. even fanatics such as michael moore or rush limbaugh (one on the left, the other on the right) still command a large audience when they speak...

 

learn a little about our system and you'll be surprised at how much influence the common man can actually have. sitting back and complaining without action is not the answer.

 

taks

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That is not my argument. I agree monte had valid points but it still shows no control. The thing I am most railing against is most people in and outside of the US think we have direct control over our government because we vote officials in and out of office. That is far from the truth, once they are in they are there till voted out or impeached, the later being something very difficult to do. We only have influential control we can try to get Bush or Kerry for that matter to do as we want, but we can not make them. So if Kerry is elected and deems it nescesarry to stay in Iraq guess what that is where our armed forces will be until he sees it other wise and no amout of protesting can change that. The problem you have with my post is you don't see how I see the difference between control and influence. Bush, congress, and the supreme court have the control, all we the people have is influence.

[taks]

That is not my argument.  I agree monte had valid points but it still shows no control.  The thing I am most railing against is most people in and outside of the US think we have direct control over our government because we vote officials in and out of office.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

but that is what i was arguing about. we're not supposed to have control. we're ONLY supposed to have influence. that's the whole point of a republic. put the control where it needs to be: the legislative, executive and judicial branches of government. this removes the problem of mob rule.

 

there's no comparison to a country like china, where the common man doesn't even have influence. he's nothing.

 

taks

[Dakoth]

Taks I am not arguing with you I don't necessarily think we need direct control but there are those people who think because we elect our officials we have direct control over our government and we do not. May be a better exapmle is this I think all North Koreans are bad because they develpoed nuclear weapons in secret to gain an advantage. Now did the average NK know their goverment was doing this. No just like we as Americans do not know all the secret actions our government takes part in around the world.

[alanschu]

Dakoth, I just read the thread and am wondering where you are going with the "direct control argument?"

 

It seems to have swayed from the original discussion, and as a result doesn't seem as relevant as the other posts.

[taks]

Taks I am not arguing with you I don't necessarily think we need direct control but there are those people who think because we elect our officials we have direct control over our government and we do not.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

i see what you're saying... an implication that some see this as control, which is not true. gotcha...

 

taks

[Dakoth]

Alanschu it is quite simple no matter who we vote in we are subjct to what he believes we should do. To often I see people from other countries and even our own who say we as americans went to war in Iraq. While I am a supporter of the war none of my beliefs, or reasons are why we went to war, we went to war because our government decided it was the thing to do. Just because we vote our officials in does not equate control of our governmet that is all I am trying to say. So a terroist act against the common man does nothing to truly sway our government, because we have no direct control over what is done and not done in our country.

 

 

Edit: I will through this in to show I know what monte is saying. If we are speaking only on influence then yes we differ greatly from the Chinese, the liberties we have in America make it very easy for us to try and influence our government, but in the end it is still our government making the decisions and not us.