A few things that bugged me about KOTOR

[alanschu]

A non-force user can fight a force user and still kick his butt.  Done it many a times in both versions of the Star Wars RPG.

Which is probably a limitation of the RPG rules, in an attempt to balance the game. They have to make other classes viable otherwise no one would want to play as anything but a Jedi.

 

If you were to put KOTOR into the context of the movies instead, I contend that not even the ultimate Scoundrel Mr. Solo could have done it.

 

But then again with the Star Wars RPG you can do whatever you want. I don't know who GM'd your Death Star run, but I would never have allowed your "instant" reverse. Considering if it was truly instant the G-Forces would have been infinite, not even your precious droid would have survived it, let alone the ship. You say your ship was a wreck afterwards, but it was still good enough to shoot down to wingmen, and chase down Vader's prototype TIE and crash into it.

 

It just sounds like you wanted to go Top Gun on them.

[alanschu]

That is why Bioware was short sided in their development of KotOR. There should have been 3 endings.

 

LS Jedi

DS Sith

Neutral for a Revan who doesn't give a smeg one way or the other.

I would have appreciated more endings for Fallout 2 as well. Fallout's ending was probably pretty unavoidable.

[alanschu]

THe Republic only had one thing against it and that was bastilla. Once bastilla was removed, one way or another, the Republic fleet would have decimated the Star Forge and the Sith Fleet.

Would they have? The whole game I got the impression that the Sith fleet was getting larger and larger at an accelerated rate, and that all in all the Republic was struggling in the war.

[alanschu]

Bioware should have done a better job in writing the storyline of KotOR to allow all plausible actions within the scope of the game's setting. Don't put the blame on me due to Bioware's shoddy work.

Not even Fallout allows anywhere close to "all plausible actions."

 

They'd still be programming the game if they wanted to cater to every possibility. It's not "shoddy" work, since they stated the scope of the game was to play a Jedi.

[alanschu]

I know what I like in a CRPG and what I hate in a CRPG. What I hate most is playing the developer's character and forced to make my character in a certain way. If KotOR didn't have these two factors in it it could have been a contender for the best CRPG ever but it falls short.

Therein lies the problem. Who says that what you like and dislike in a CRPG are the rules that game developers should follow.

[Drakron]

First there is no Jedi vs Sith, I hope people will understand what I mean now ...

 

The Sith is not composed of only force users, there were millions that followed the Sith idiology without having any force sensatibity.

 

The Jedi are a part of the Republic, most people cannot indentify with "people in robes wielding glowing rods that cast magic spells", same reason of why the Rebels movement is NOT about the Jedi previlages and idiology but restoring the Republic values, the Jedi are the guardians of the Republic but that is their extent of participation on the Republic.

 

The core is still the Republic vs the Sith.

 

Trying to use the word "Knights" to defend all games of the line "Knights" as Jedi is trying to defend the impossible, its in no way required to be all about Jedi and even less about the Sith.

 

Hades is right in the point its sucks having to play a character the developers come up and decided what of two paths can the character take ... at least in FF games at least they dont pretend to have character generation and thows us something we know goes a predesigned path, at least I know what I am being given.

 

I finished SW:KotOR once ... I replayed FF X twice.

[alanschu]

Hades is right in the point its sucks having to play a character the developers come up and decided what of two paths can the character take ... at least in FF games at least they dont pretend to have character generation and thows us something we know goes a predesigned path, at least I know what I am being given.

 

I finished SW:KotOR once ... I replayed FF X twice.

You are rationalizing your arguments simply because you have your beef with the game.

 

It's like saying you'll vote for a politician because at least they admit to being a scumbag.

 

 

Character generation did affect the way you progressed through the game, albiet not a whole lot....KOTOR did have a heavy focus on combat.

 

But to claim you like FF better because they are "honest" is a poor defense. Either you like something, or you don't. The reason why you complain about it is because you do not like the way the game was implemented, and clearly you are a Star Wars aficianado, so anything in Star Wars that seems to deviate or anything (which you claim KOTOR does) becomes bad. Hades' complaints just give you another avenue to complain. As for it "sucking" to play a developers character down two storylines.....welcome to the statusquo (well not quite...since most games only offer one storyline).

 

Sure, KOTOR didn't have to force you to be a Jedi, but Bioware stated from the get go that your character was going to become a Jedi. Bioware didn't pretend that you could play the game entirely as a class other than a Jedi. Anyone that thought otherwise is a fool (which is probably why they are ticked...no one likes being played a fool).

 

 

As for how many times you finish a game: it's anecdotal and irrelevant. I am currently playing through it for the fourth time. I've also played through Half-Life about five times, FF7 at least twice (maybe 3 times). I'm also currently on my second go round with FF6. I just recently finished Call of Duty for the third time.

 

 

So you only played KOTOR once. Big whoop. If you didn't like it, then wait for reviews for KOTOR II, and then make your decision.

[GhostofAnakin]

Hades is right in the point its sucks having to play a character the developers come up and decided what of two paths can the character take ... at least in  FF games at least they dont pretend to have character generation and thows us something we know goes a predesigned path, at least I know what I am being given.

 

I finished SW:KotOR once ... I replayed FF X twice.

You are rationalizing your arguments simply because you have your beef with the game.

 

It's like saying you'll vote for a politician because at least they admit to being a scumbag.

 

 

Character generation did affect the way you progressed through the game, albiet not a whole lot....KOTOR did have a heavy focus on combat.

 

But to claim you like FF better because they are "honest" is a poor defense. Either you like something, or you don't. The reason why you complain about it is because you do not like the way the game was implemented, and clearly you are a Star Wars aficianado, so anything in Star Wars that seems to deviate or anything (which you claim KOTOR does) becomes bad. Hades' complaints just give you another avenue to complain. As for it "sucking" to play a developers character down two storylines.....welcome to the statusquo (well not quite...since most games only offer one storyline).

 

Sure, KOTOR didn't have to force you to be a Jedi, but Bioware stated from the get go that your character was going to become a Jedi. Bioware didn't pretend that you could play the game entirely as a class other than a Jedi. Anyone that thought otherwise is a fool (which is probably why they are ticked...no one likes being played a fool).

 

 

As for how many times you finish a game: it's anecdotal and irrelevant. I am currently playing through it for the fourth time. I've also played through Half-Life about five times, FF7 at least twice (maybe 3 times). I'm also currently on my second go round with FF6. I just recently finished Call of Duty for the third time.

 

 

So you only played KOTOR once. Big whoop. If you didn't like it, then wait for reviews for KOTOR II, and then make your decision.

amen.

 

it seems a common theme that those who disliked something about the game or those who disliked the entire premise of the game use that as their "proof" that the game sucked.

 

i could name something i disliked about EVERY single game i've played, even ones that are considered some of the best ever. does the fact they have something that i didn't like it in mean they weren't good games? no.

 

drakron, you obviously know your Star Wars. but don't try to come off as holier-than-thou to us other Star Wars fans. i know a good deal about Star Wars myself. i understand all the nuances. i don't need to be told that my view of Star Wars is wrong just because someone who has memorized every aspect of the SW universe believes so.

[Judge Hades]

Well Star Trek deals with aliens and space-ships too. Those must be the same. Why couldn't I play as a Vulcan?

There has yet been a Star Trek CRPG and in the PnP game you can play Vulcan, Andorian, or any other the other races.

[nightcleaver]

"... as PROOF that the game sucked..."

 

"...but don't try to come off as holier-than-thou to us other Star Wars fans..."

 

... I think he's just defending his position...

 

 

You say it's the 'status quo' for games to have you playing the developer's character. I don't think they're talking about story, though, and I think you've gotten so obsessed with proving your point of view that you fail to see that you're full of crap. Honestly, saying he doesn't know what he's talking about when he says he doesn't want to play the developer's character is like sticking your thumbs in your ears and shouting, "I can't hear you."

 

Ask yourself: Why doesn't it matter that you're playing the developer's character? Why might it be a good thing for the developer's to define the character, and how does that defining happen? Is that a good thing?

I'm sure your answer would be, yes. I can't answer the rest for you, but suffice to say, if you argued that than arguing his own argument, you might actually come to some sort of conclusion. Whether or not that means you both agree is untold, and it's highly unlikely anything of the sort would happen. Don't expect it to.

 

They obviously don't think there's enough freedom in the game. What benefits are there to having more character creation freedom, ala fallout, and what benefits are there to having a pre-defined PS: T type character creation? I'm sure you've explained these things before, but apparently you either need to go into more detail or stop and think about what you're actually trying to say before you mutilate it beyond recognition. If it's obviously a matter of taste, well... I don't need to tell you what that means. Or I shouldn't, anyway.

 

 

I could say lemon tastes like chicken, you could say chicken tastes like lemon. IF I really experienced lemon in the same way as chicken, and you experienced it respectively in your opposite way, there'd be no reason to argue. However, if you said the two (lemon and chicken) are nothing alike, you would be partially right - you could argue their texture, their color, everything about them is different, but would it be valid to argue that BECAUSE of those differences, lemon doesn't taste like chicken, and the other person is wrong and/or stupid? It's absurd. Go find something else to do, if it gets down to a matter of that - and be careful that you aren't doing that right now.

[Judge Hades]

KotOR is a good game for what it is, just like PS:T, but they are not games for me. I like a little more freedom in my games and if Obsidian can't provide that then there is no reason for me to buy their games.

[GhostofAnakin]

"... as PROOF that the game sucked..."

 

"...but don't try to come off as holier-than-thou to us other Star Wars fans..."

 

... I think he's just defending his position...

 

 

You say it's the 'status quo' for games to have you playing the developer's character. I don't think they're talking about story, though, and I think you've gotten so obsessed with proving your point of view that you fail to see that you're full of crap. Honestly, saying he doesn't know what he's talking about when he says he doesn't want to play the developer's character is like sticking your thumbs in your ears and shouting, "I can't hear you."

 

Ask yourself: Why doesn't it matter that you're playing the developer's character? Why might it be a good thing for the developer's to define the character, and how does that defining happen? Is that a good thing?

I'm sure your answer would be, yes. I can't answer the rest for you, but suffice to say, if you argued that than arguing his own argument, you might actually come to some sort of conclusion. Whether or not that means you both agree is untold, and it's highly unlikely anything of the sort would happen. Don't expect it to.

 

They obviously don't think there's enough freedom in the game. What benefits are there to having more character creation freedom, ala fallout, and what benefits are there to having a pre-defined PS: T type character creation? I'm sure you've explained these things before, but apparently you either need to go into more detail or stop and think about what you're actually trying to say before you mutilate it beyond recognition. If it's obviously a matter of taste, well... I don't need to tell you what that means. Or I shouldn't, anyway.

 

 

I could say lemon tastes like chicken, you could say chicken tastes like lemon. IF I really experienced lemon in the same way as chicken, and you experienced it respectively in your opposite way, there'd be no reason to argue. However, if you said the two (lemon and chicken) are nothing alike, you would be partially right - you could argue their texture, their color, everything about them is different, but would it be valid to argue that BECAUSE of those differences, lemon doesn't taste like chicken, and the other person is wrong and/or stupid? It's absurd. Go find something else to do, if it gets down to a matter of that - and be careful that you aren't doing that right now.

Was this directed at me? Because you've got one of my quotes in there, but you've got the statement about "status quo" which i never made...

[Drakron]

You are rationalizing your arguments simply because you have your beef with the game.

Pot. Kettle. Black.

 

However its nice you cannot counter argument what I previous said, so you attack the part were I said it suck playing another person character concept and like it or not that is what you were playing in SW:KotOR convinient forgeting you are doing the same thing.

 

Character generation on SW:KotOR served no purpose besides setting a few dialogue changes with is worst that in games such as Final Fantasy were there is none because we are playing a pre-made character, they can focus on character development that even if its just like "playing a story" its not "playing a story that you have the chance to select two paths" and that is what SW:KotOR given at the expense of deeper storyline and character interaction or freedom to select your own path.

 

Fact I finished SW:KotOR is by itself a feat, I no longer finish many games because I eventually grow bored with then at some point (I never finished Gothic 2 despite I praise many aspects of it) but SW:KotOR have little replayability because in the end nothing is set until the Temple Summit were its simply a matter of saving the game at that point, beat the game, reload and take the other option.

[Judge Hades]

If Obsidian wants to make games with zero replayability and place a stranglehold on what the player can do more power to them. I won't buy the POS games like KotOR2 will be but there will be plenty of idiots who will.

[GhostofAnakin]

If Obsidian wants to make games with zero replayability and place a stranglehold on what the player can do more power to them. I won't buy the POS games like KotOR2 will be but there will be plenty of idiots who will.

See, this is the problem people have with you and your posts.

 

Having an opinion on the game is fine. You have just as much right as anyone else does. But then you post something inflamatory like that and all of a sudden it's no longer just your opinion on the game, but basically calling everyone who will buy the game "idiots".

 

This is the kind of attitude that most people don't respect, since you are no longer just stating your opinion.

[Judge Hades]

Of course it is my opinion. It is my opinion that people who buy games like KotOR2 are idiots. Just because it is inflamatory doesn't make it a fact so it must be an opinion. Opinions can be insulting, Ghostie, in case you haven't figured that out yet. I mean have you ever been to a political debate? The insults there are far more subtle but opinions nonetheless.

 

Also if people have a problem with my posts they need to get thicker skin. Oh no! Oh boo hoo, some nameless guy on some forum from a town I have no clue about called me an idiot. Oh boo hoo. Gee, grow up and get thicker skin.

 

You think that I am an idiot and I am fine with that. Frankly I am sure the whole planet thinks that I am an idiot and to tell you something, I don't give a rat's arse. So why should you?

[GhostofAnakin]

I guess we see your maturity level come to the forefront then.

[Judge Hades]

Maturity level? BWAAHAAAAAHAAAAAAA!

 

For godsakes man, this is a forum and you are talking about maturity level? That is hilarious. I am over thirty years old and I still play games. I fully admit my maturity level is far far below what it was when I was in high school and you want to know why, Ghostie?

 

Because over the years I have learned that life is too short to be bothered being prim and proper to others. You say what you feel when you feel like it and be honest how you feel when you state it. A human being lives for only 70 to 80 years on average. Why waste time being mature? Only thing that matters in life is living life to have the most fun possible because once its over its oblivion time.

[JohnDoe]

And you get the most fun out of sitting on a message board for a game you hate and crying about it at every opportunity? Odd way to have fun, but each to his own.

[Judge Hades]

Its a time waster and it beats having Christians screaming at me to repent.

[Child of Flame]

Its a time waster and it beats having Christians screaming at me to repent.

REPENT GOD DAMN YOU!!! REPENT!!!

[Judge Hades]

NOOOOOO!

 

I SHALL NOT REPENT!

 

Instead I'll play an accordian and do a happy lil' dance!

 

*Visceris dances and plays polka music*

[Child of Flame]

NOOOOOO!

 

I SHALL NOT REPENT!

 

Instead I'll play an accordian and do a happy lil' dance!

 

*Visceris dances and plays polka music*

DANCE LIL' MONKEY DANCE!!!

[alanschu]

You say it's the 'status quo' for games to have you playing the developer's character.

 

It is. Games where you do not play the developers characters are few and far between (which is indeed a bad thing).

 

They obviously don't think there's enough freedom in the game. What benefits are there to having more character creation freedom, ala fallout, and what benefits are there to having a pre-defined PS: T type character creation? I'm sure you've explained these things before, but apparently you either need to go into more detail or stop and think about what you're actually trying to say before you mutilate it beyond recognition. If it's obviously a matter of taste, well... I don't need to tell you what that means.

 

I can respect that they wish there was more freedom in the game. There were plenty of times that I wish I could have done more in the game (particularly influence the actions of my NPC with more permanent changes in their characters). The problem comes with the continuous regurgitation of the same thing over and over, making it come across like KOTOR is somehow an exception to the way games are actually made. Furthermore, I still contend that the game allows you to create the character that you want...admittedly not as varied as Fallout....but I cannot think of any quests in Fallout that can be completed in such a way that quests in KOTOR could not be completed.

 

In Fallout, quests were generally completed in a good or a bad way....same as KOTOR. In Fallout, you generally had options to go in with force, or use more subtle methods such as convincing people that your opinion is right or manipulating the environment.....KOTOR also contains these quests.

 

However, if you said the two (lemon and chicken) are nothing alike, you would be partially right - you could argue their texture, their color, everything about them is different, but would it be valid to argue that BECAUSE of those differences, lemon doesn't taste like chicken, and the other person is wrong and/or stupid? It's absurd. Go find something else to do, if it gets down to a matter of that - and be careful that you aren't doing that right now.

 

I'm also commenting on the fact that they do nothing but trash the game as being a poor game since it does not have this freedom that they want so badly....and they reiterate it over and over and over.

 

I'm also commenting on the fact that since the game didn't go exactly the way they wanted, they point out how it is weaker in certain aspects to a different game...when if they were to look at it more objectively they aren't as different as they are making it out to be.

[EnderAndrew]

If Obsidian wants to make games with zero replayability and place a stranglehold on what the player can do more power to them. I won't buy the POS games like KotOR2 will be but there will be plenty of idiots who will.

Well, the game offers a decent shot for replaying atleast once since there should be clear LS and DS paths.