What I miss in modern RPGs

[Darkmoon]

When I played the RPG Ultima 7, I thought that this game was a perfect RPG. It was an evolution in terms of gameplay, graphics and storytelling.

I could hardly wait for the next step in that evolution, but it didn't come...

The only evolution that took place in RPGs was that the graphics improved.

Let me explain what I think was so great about Ultima 7.

 

First, you had the feeling of being in a world that felt alive. Every NPC had a real personality and every NPC hat a lot to say about himself and what was going on. There were no one-line-conversations. Every NPC had a daily schedule, they woke up in the morning, sat down for breakfast, opened the windows, walked to their shops, worked, got to an inn in the evening and back home to bed. And you could actually follow them around and watch them doing this.

 

Second, the interactivity was so great, no other game reached this level again after Ultima 7. You could move every objects around, you could use nearly every object and you could combine objects. You could buy flour from the miller, fetch water from a well, mix the water with the flour to get a dough and put the dough into an oven to bake bread. You could then sell the bread or eat it. This may not be important for the story of a game, but for the game itself as because of this interactivity you feel like being in a truly alive world, where you can actually interact with everything. Interactivity like this may be common in MMORPGs, but I don't like MMORPGs as I want to be the lone hero that saves the world in an epic story. But I also want to feel like I'm part of a "real" world.

 

Third, the world in Ultima 7 also felt alive as there were a lot of neutral animals. There were deer roaming around in the forests, foxes, butterflies, dogs, cats, cows, sheep, pigs, birds etc. You could actually hunt these animals to get meat which you could sell or eat.

 

Modern RPGs don't offer this experience. Only important characters have a lot to tell you, no NPC has a daily schedule and the item interactivity is next to non existant and every creature you meet in the wilderness is evil. I think that this is really sad.

 

I really hope and pray that one day, a RPG with the features mentioned above will be created.

[Phoenix]

Some of these elements you mentioned can be found in Arx Fatalis, Gothic 2 and Divine Divinity. But of course, i can see that those game still far away from Ultima 7.

[Darkmoon]

I know those games and I played all of them. They are really great and they give me hope that one day a game like Ultima 7 oder maybe even one that surpasses it, will be made.

[samm]

there are only two things that count in today's games:

- put them in the stores as fast as possible

- make them graphically appealing.

(i'm aware that list doesn't cover everything)

 

these two things guarantee a financial sucess to a certain degree. you don't gain a lot of prestige and long time supporters by doing so, but your publisher will allow you to develop another game. perhaps, this game will be better. but there's still a schedule, and you have to make money. so, whiy not try it with the same pattern, it worked fine last time. the game after that will be good, we promise to ourselves...

[Zahadome]

Wow. That Ultima 7 sounds like a great game. I have never played anything in the Ultima series, but I might consider starting.

 

I hear Ultima is like this stoneage rpg with million sequels, dating back to amiga or something. To me BG was quite old when I first played it, I liked it alot though. I guess I just have to try it out then.

[Synaesthesia]

Wow. That Ultima 7 sounds like a great game. I have never played anything in the Ultima series, but I might consider starting.

 

I hear Ultima is like this stoneage rpg with million sequels, dating back to amiga or something. To me BG was quite old when I first played it, I liked it alot though. I guess I just have to try it out then.

Try 'dating back to Apple ][e'.

 

Ultima VII were both great games, but only in the ways that you mentioned. As much as I love both Ultima 7's, they both 'suffered' from linearity (Serpent Isle moreso) and ****ty combat. I felt, at least, that the combat became less fun when they 'real timed' it. With the exception of Serpent Isle, none of the NPC's really developed personalities. It wasn't until Dupre atoned for his sins while he was a Bane that I actually felt any attachement to any of the characters (admittedly, this was likely because he had been with my party since Ultima IV). I think, at any rate, that the Ultima 7 games had the best and most living environment of any CRPG I've played. Perhaps as a result of concentration on creating a living world, the story and ROELPLAYEINGE suffered a bit as a result.

[Iolo]

Wow. That Ultima 7 sounds like a great game. I have never played anything in the Ultima series, but I might consider starting.

 

I hear Ultima is like this stoneage rpg with million sequels, dating back to amiga or something. To me BG was quite old when I first played it, I liked it alot though. I guess I just have to try it out then.

Keep in mind that Ultima 7 shipped in 1993 so the graphics are dated and it's going to be a problem to run on today's PCs. I recall it needed its own memory manager? Still great though.

 

There were 10 Ultima games, Ultima 1-7, Ultima 7 Part 2, Ultima 8 and Ultima 9. Ultima 8 and 9 were the worst of the series, with 9 coming out in 1999 and being very buggy and very slow (graphics wise) even though the graphics were very good. Ultima 9 today would probably play better and still look okay graphics wise. Ultima 7 and Ultima 7 Part 2 were the two best of the series with Ultima 4 and 5 being tied in my opinion for next best.

 

Ultima X is MMORPG and will be out this year but it has no relationship to the series.

 

There were also some spin offs. There were the two Ultima Underworld games, which were more dungeon crawlers with first person perspective. The first game was the first to have a continuous first person perspective (not grid based in movement for instance), a few months or a year before Doom came out so you can almost think of it as one of the first FPSs. Arx Fatalis was created as a spiritual successor to Ultima Underworld.

 

There were also two games based on the Ultima 6 engine, Martian Dreams where you went to Mars at the end of the 1800s (yes strange setting) and another one beginning with Savage where you went back in time.

 

 

Ultima predates the Amiga by the way. B) I played the first 6 on the Commodore 64 and Commodore 128.

[Darkmoon]

You are right. Combat in Ultima 7 was bad, but you could get used to it.

As for linearity, I think that the more linear a story is, the more tension there is in it. The best example for this is the Final Fantasy series. They are linear but the tension and excitement in the story are simply great. I agree though that too much linearity isn't good as well. But Morrowind for example could have used a bit more linearity IMHO.

 

If someone wants to try Ultima 7 on todays computers, you should install exult (and of course you need Ultima 7).

Exult is a game engine, that allows you to play Ultima 7 and Serpent Isle on todays computers (the original version is not playable due to this really strange memory manager).

You can find exult here.

[LlamaGod]

Morrowind was linear as hell and FF's stories are all horrible, OMG PROTACT TEH PLANET PLZ RECYCLE

[Iolo]

Depends. In Morrowind I spent the first few weeks not even going near the main quest or even Balmora. In that sense, it's non linear because I have the freedom to go through the quests or go whereever I want. In KOTOR, the game is the main quest and nothing else. You don't have the option of not doing the main quest in KOTOR because otherwise you will never go to other planets or new areas. I would prefer a sequel to be more open ended than that.

[Synaesthesia]

Wow. That Ultima 7 sounds like a great game. I have never played anything in the Ultima series, but I might consider starting.

 

I hear Ultima is like this stoneage rpg with million sequels, dating back to amiga or something. To me BG was quite old when I first played it, I liked it alot though. I guess I just have to try it out then.

Keep in mind that Ultima 7 shipped in 1993 so the graphics are dated and it's going to be a problem to run on today's PCs. I recall it needed its own memory manager? Still great though.

 

There were 10 Ultima games, Ultima 1-7, Ultima 7 Part 2, Ultima 8 and Ultima 9. Ultima 8 and 9 were the worst of the series, with 9 coming out in 1999 and being very buggy and very slow (graphics wise) even though the graphics were very good. Ultima 9 today would probably play better and still look okay graphics wise. Ultima 7 and Ultima 7 Part 2 were the two best of the series with Ultima 4 and 5 being tied in my opinion for next best.

 

Ultima X is MMORPG and will be out this year but it has no relationship to the series.

 

There were also some spin offs. There were the two Ultima Underworld games, which were more dungeon crawlers with first person perspective. The first game was the first to have a continuous first person perspective (not grid based in movement for instance), a few months or a year before Doom came out so you can almost think of it as one of the first FPSs. Arx Fatalis was created as a spiritual successor to Ultima Underworld.

 

There were also two games based on the Ultima 6 engine, Martian Dreams where you went to Mars at the end of the 1800s (yes strange setting) and another one beginning with Savage where you went back in time.

 

 

Ultima predates the Amiga by the way. B) I played the first 6 on the Commodore 64 and Commodore 128.

You forgot the 'Worlds Of Adventure' spin offs.

 

Apparently U7 is playable in DosBox as well.

[Lord Tingeling]

Morrowind was linear as hell and FF's stories are all horrible, OMG PROTACT TEH PLANET PLZ RECYCLE

No. If anything, Morrowind was too *non*-linear for it's own good.

 

FF's storylines horrible? As opposed to what? Fallout's fed-ex dito? Baldur's Gate "extremely original" *wink, wink* story?

[Powerslave]

The most non-linear RPG ever has to be Daggerfall, but it is still one of the greatest games of all times. If you count out the bugs, that is. Graphic-wise it may suck compared to present-day data, but its atmosphere is 100 times better than Morrowind's. The sound effects of King Lysandus' ghost as you enter the city of Daggerfall at night still give me the creeps.

 

And the first Ultima I remember playing was Pagan. Man was that great. What number was that in the series...

*goes to dig up the cd*

[Iolo]

The most non-linear RPG I know of is Daggerfall, but it is still one of the greatest games of all times. If you count out the bugs, that is. Graphic-wise it may suck compared to present-day data, but its atmosphere is 100 times better than Morrowind's.

 

And the first Ultima I remember playing was Pagan. Man was that great. What number was that in the series...

*goes to dig up the cd*

Pagan was Ultima 8. It was actually a bit of a departure from the previous games in the series as you were on a separate planet with none of your companions.

[Majek]

The most non-linear RPG ever has to be Daggerfall, but it is still one of the greatest games of all times. If you count out the bugs, that is. Graphic-wise it may suck compared to present-day data, but its atmosphere is 100 times better than Morrowind's. The sound effects of King Lysandus' ghost as you enter the city of Daggerfall at night still give me the creeps.

 

And the first Ultima I remember playing was Pagan. Man was that great. What number was that in the series...

*goes to dig up the cd*

Daggefall must have been the most annoying game i ever played.

[Volourn]

I find it funny you complain about modern games lacking in these areas yet only name *one* "old sckool" game that has it. Why? Because most old school games are plain and simple dungeon hacks. Ultima series was one of the very few exceptions to that rule. I loved those games for it all the more.

 

The ES series is so overrated it's sad. Those games offer nothing but a huge world. It's too bad that the world is so empty and the characters so bland; I just don't care about anything. There's no purpose at all.

[LlamaGod]

Morrowind was linear as hell and FF's stories are all horrible, OMG PROTACT TEH PLANET PLZ RECYCLE

No. If anything, Morrowind was too *non*-linear for it's own good.

 

FF's storylines horrible? As opposed to what? Fallout's fed-ex dito? Baldur's Gate "extremely original" *wink, wink* story?

Well, it was linear in the fact despite you could run around and hit things at will, none of that mattered at all and all quests had a defined begining and end, always the same, always one way (except for those ones where it's painfully obvious, but they still ended the same). Main quest was a 1-way street, couldnt even join the evil guys. And your begining was written in stone and so was your ending. It was a false sense of freedom.

 

And while Fallout was a fed-ex to start with, that wasnt the be all and end all of it's main quest, now was it? And of course, you could go about doing it in different ways. Same cannot be said of Final Fantasy.

 

Plus, the characters look like dip****s.

[LlamaGod]

I find it funny you complain about modern games lacking in these areas yet only name *one* "old sckool" game that has it. Why? Because most old school games are plain and simple dungeon hacks. Ultima series was one of the very few exceptions to that rule. I loved those games for it all the more.

 

The ES series is so overrated it's sad. Those games offer nothing but a huge world. It's too bad that the world is so empty and the characters so bland; I just don't care about anything. There's no purpose at all.

Hey now, Ultima 7 was very immersive and had good characters.

[Volourn]

Hey now, I didn't say otherwise. First paragraph dealt with U7; second paragrapgh dealt with ES series.

 

Once again, Mr. Llama, I loved the Ultima series.

[Darkmoon]

I find it funny you complain about modern games lacking in these areas yet only name *one* "old sckool" game that has it. Why? Because most old school games are plain and simple dungeon hacks. Ultima series was one of the very few exceptions to that rule. I loved those games for it all the more.

 

The ES series is so overrated it's sad. Those games offer nothing but a huge world. It's too bad that the world is so empty and the characters so bland; I just don't care about anything. There's no purpose at all.

When I played Ultima 7 for the first time, I thought that it was the next logical step in the evolution of RPGs. I wondered why the other RPG series didn't go this way of creating such an "alive" world.

Sure Ultima is the only series that offered this kind of immersive world, but isn't it sad that it is/was the only one?

[Lord Tingeling]

Well, it was linear in the fact despite you could run around and hit things at will, none of that mattered at all and all quests had a defined begining and end, always the same, always one way

Oh, please.

 

 

Main quest was a 1-way street, couldnt even join the evil guys.

 

Eh, and Fallout did this different? How?

 

And your begining was written in stone and so was your ending

As opposed to Fallout?

 

Sure, Fallout's slideshows offered some variation when it came to endings, but the "core" one (Regarding V13 and your tribe) always stayed the same. And you can't possibly claim that Morrowind's beginning was any more "set in stone" than the one in Fallout.

 

Besides, Morrowind solved the ending problem by not having an ending at all.

 

 

And of course, you could go about doing it in different ways. Same cannot be said of Final Fantasy.

 

And this relates to FF's *STORYLINES* in what way?

 

Plus, the characters look like dip****s.

 

Again, what the hell does this have to do with the quality of FF's storylines?

[Iolo]

Well I think there was more than one way of dealing with the Master and the slides should differ quite a bit depending on what you did.

[Zahadome]

Plus, the characters look like dip****s.

heh couldn't agree more :D

 

Thanks for the tips guys. Now I only gotta get my hands on a copy of U7, maybe a used one will do.

[Iolo]

It'd used to be that you could get the Complete Ultima 7 with Ultima 7, Ultima 7 Part 2 as well as the expansions that both games received in one package. You can probably find it on EBay. Or even better look for an Ultima Collection. There were a couple of them that included all of the core games except for Ultima 9. Try EBay or Amazon.

[Magnum Opus]

As much as I love both Ultima 7's, they both 'suffered' from linearity (Serpent Isle moreso) and ****ty combat

I don't know if I'd consider either Ultimas of Ultima 7 to be really Linear. To me, linear gameplay involves them herding you along a specific path in the gameworld, and The Black Gate was the most open RPG I've ever played with the exception of Daggerfall -- at least, it was once they let you out of Trinsic. If any game is going to want to tell any sort of story at all it's going to have to be linear to some degree, but The Black Gate let you do everything in your own sweet time without imposing any real limits.

 

Part of that was due to the nature of the "plot" itself, I think. Dropping you into Britannia with the quest of "finding out what's wrong" gives you a lot of leeway when it comes to exploring the world and talking to who you want to talk to. The story itself was a bit weak in Ultima 7, but as you mentioned, if you want a wide open game world where you can do what you want when you want, you're going to have to keep the required plot elements thin.

 

Serpent Isle was a lot more linear, but for a really good example of what I'd call a linear RPG, there's always Ultima IX. They were telling a reasonably well fleshed out story, but they also boxed you into specific areas of the gameworld for each and every step, and only at one point that I can recall was there ever a choice about where you'd go next. Moreover, those areas were small enough that you could feel you were being boxed in. That's the only Ultima that even remotely made me feel claustrophobic, something that, after the Ultima 7s, I didn't think would happen at all in that series. Serpent Isle made you go to certain places, yes, but there was enough to do there, and enough space to do it in, that it didn't feel "close" to me. I was just moving on to a new part of the world to do what needed to be done there.

 

I did like how they boxed you in, though. Whether it was you being stranded on an island because the ship you came on was beached and in need of repair, or whether there was an echantment on the swamp preventing you from going north, the obstacles weren't artifical to the world, but rather were part of it and part of its history.

 

Perhaps as a result of concentration on creating a living world, the story and ROELPLAYEINGE suffered a bit as a result.

Gotta disagree with you there. There was a lot of roleplaying in the Ultima 7s. Yes, they constrained you to playing the role of the Virtuous Hero type, but with the entire world built around that Hero, mythology included, there were plenty of roleplaying opportunities in those games. Not much choice of which role to play, but plenty of roleplaying.

 

The lack of definition of the core NPCs (Iolo, Dupre, Shamino, and to a slightly lesser extent, Spark) didn't bother me, though. There was enough random banter and description thown in to let me know that Dupre, while noble and heroic, wasn't one to turn down a drink at the local tavern, that Iolo was the parental father-figure Bard, and that Shamino was pretty much a standard elven ranger type: never aging, perceptive, quiet, doesn't much like the cities. Whatever they didn't fill in for me regarding their personalities, I filled in myself. The level of detail in the world helped with that. If it hadn't been so detailed, I could have been quite happy letting those three remain as human packhorses. As it was, though, I paid attention to anything they said, whether they were whining about food, passing a tavern and looking for a drink, or interjecting with their disapproval over something I had to do.... or something I didn't have to do but wanted to do (sometimes my Avatar engaged in questionable adventuring practices).

 

Of course, the fact that all three characters follow well-established stereotypes doesn't hurt, either. Job's half done when they say there's a Knight in Shining Armour walking around beside you, unless they want to deviate from the norm.

 

The combat was crap, though. Always gave me a laugh when I hit that Combat button and all my characters would dash madly off into the trees, only occasionally streaking across a corner of the screen on their way to somewhere else. The fact that Iolo kept hitting me in the back of the head with his crossbow bolts was just a hazard of combat, though. T'was just part of his personality. Master Archer who hadn't quite mastered it enough, for my taste

 

Inventory management could get nasty, too... sometimes I felt like having a cluttered backpack where objects had weight and volume added to the realism, sometimes I felt it just just more a pain in the arse. Still quite undecided on that issue, personally.