Equipment that rarely makes sense to use?

[thelee]

4 hours ago, Ivanfyodorovich said:

Do any of you see any logic or design principle being employed here to decide what item abilities are per encounter and which are per rest? I actually started a short list of all of the per encounter item abilities, because they are so random and unexpected when I do end up finding them. Incomplete list at the bottom here.**

you know, i'm not sure even OBS really had a philosophy or design principle. because there are some stuff that is just way too good as a per-encounter ability (kitchen stove with that massively good thunderous report, modwyr with bottom's up). *shrug*

edit: my completely random speculation is that items they designed earlier on were more likely to use per-encounter, but they eventually leaned a lot harder on per-rest because it's easier to avoid blowing out encounter balance if things are once/rest.

Edited February 14 by thelee

[thelee]

4 hours ago, Ivanfyodorovich said:

Maybe the better question, though, is what SHOULD the rules or logic be to determine which are which? Is it the overall strength or impact of the ability? The amount of "enchant points" being spent on it in terms of itemization (if that's even a thing)? 

sorry for double post, but

there used to be enchantment points in poe1 and i feel like i read je sawyer talking somewhere on twitter about having a point-based system for stuff in deadfire. but if there were, i'm not sure we have any visibility into it, a purely internal system.

 

i guess it has to be judgment call. that's a pretty tall order to be done across all the items in the game, and some of it is going to feel real bad (kitchen stove's thunderous report seems way too good but any one who nerfs that is probably going to have a mod that sees almost 0 downloads).

[Elric Galad]

9 hours ago, Ivanfyodorovich said:

I think that's a helpful point you are both making - converting everything to per encounter would have a negative impact on game balance, or at least for the people who are interacting with the rest mechanic in a meaningful way (Rymrgand/Woedica's Challenges, no rest runs, etc.). Though I'm hearing you say that the trinkets are probably an exception to that, given their power level. Also, maybe 2/rest is the better fit here, at least for some of them. 

Yeah, 2 per rest would make some sense.

9 hours ago, Ivanfyodorovich said:

Maybe the better question, though, is what SHOULD the rules or logic be to determine which are which? Is it the overall strength or impact of the ability? The amount of "enchant points" being spent on it in terms of itemization (if that's even a thing)? 

There's a good reason why BPM never messed with general item balance. Are items supposed to be balanced in the first place ?

Situational items for example shall not consider bad IMHO. Reason is because you can swap items. That's how CRPG worked from the dawn of time.

Resounding call useless ? Tell that to Auranic.

Beza's tooth ? Good vs spirit, and for Eothas' sake, that -2 AR stackable with other debuff on Crit !

Scourge of Bezzelo ? Best in slot for interrupting (but you get it so late).

Weak items are a worthy subject of discussion. But some (Gladiator sword, Reflex Boots) are supposed to be early game items. So should they be good ? Okay weapon quality can help fixing that : an early game item can have good unique properties if the quality is low (you can always improve them later). And maybe blue items (Reflex boots) can be bad as they are not unique.

BPM fixed broken stuff for items, not bad stuff. I didn't want to engage on this path. It's extremely hard to define a general rule. You may want all items to be somewhat "balanced", but I'm warning you it is a huge task, comparable to what BPM for abilities.

 

So I'm just going to point a few case where it would make sense to give them a little rework :

- Trinkets, for the reasons discussed above

- Sad weapon category as a whole (e.g. we can discuss case of the warhammers)

- Sad design of a particular ability (Quieting, most of that Godlike amulet properties)

- Really scarce per rest ability. Maybe all per rest should be x2, unless they are very great.

- Absence of legendary quality on Soulbound equipement. Partially done by this : FG Soulbound Upgrade at Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Nexus - Mods and Community (nexusmods.com)

- Bad concurrent upgrades (shall be really strictly worse... Steadfast on Kill for Quieting just replaces 1s of Quieting, so I will NOT tweak it if it was me)

- Absence of weapon/armor scaling for item summons (same as BPM Summon Rebalance did for abilities summon)

- Also consider making more obvious obscure display. Too many items have been designed by Wael ("Grants random Mind Inspirations" and the likes...). It would not change gameplay but such a QoL improvement ! Why do I have to navigate through gamedta files get an exact idea of what an item does ? 

7 hours ago, Ivanfyodorovich said:

Looking these over, and I agree on Resounding Call and Glacierbane. Last Word I always thought worked fine for an engagement tank, but looking at it again, I think it's lacking. Specifically, effects that only work on lower levelled enemies are contradictory design at best. They do nothing in the case you most need them, and out-levelling content to make them work more often undermines the whole project of paying close attention to the items you're using. The smallest adjustment would be to add a lesser effect that works on same and higher level enemies. The best case, though, is to just change it to an effect that works on everything. 

Using Last Word as a test case (Lower level enemies cannot use active abilities for 2/3.0 sec on Critical Hit), I think it's probably fine to just make this work on everyone. Writ of War and Writ of Sorcery exist now. Even if it did work on everyone, 2.0/3.0 seconds is very short. Prone is a stronger effect, and prone on crit exists for a few items. I'm thinking upgrade it to 3.0/5.0 seconds. 

The other enchantments could use a pass, too (Steadfast for 6s on kill is pretty weak - should be at least 8s, if not 10s).

My opinion on warhammer :

- Resounding Call : not the greatest, but there are a couple of very annoying battle where it is BiS. Nagas, 1st SSS fight, Auranic, FS final boss. Almost a "quest item".

- Glacierbane : 2 great upgrades : one is basically Animancer blade with a twist (not 100% raw but can overpenetrate). One is suspension of beneficial effect. Does I have to comment why it is great ? Still not your "main" weapon, but these 2 abilities are great.

- Last Word : just remove the lower level condition. This is ill design. The reason it would great is that it works vs anything. Affliction and Interrupting effect can get somewhat resisted. This not. And bosses get a lots of resistance/immunities. Maybe Splintered Haft shoul be aligned with BPM/CP tweak to Wounding Shot (if using a different status).

 

So yup, it would end up as a situational/backup weapon category, but is it an issue ? One gets several weapon slots for a reason. 

7 hours ago, Ivanfyodorovich said:

 

Can someone remind me how duration of item proc abilities scale in terms of duration? Is that "classless" power level? Universal power level? 

The answer was implicitly contained in my previous post. They don't.

 

Scaling for Weapons

1) Passive scales with weapon quality

2) Active scales with weapon quality AND "classless" Power Level 

 

Reminder of the general scaling rules for other equipment abilities :

1) Passive scales with nothing (so are bad if they are attacks)

2) Active scale with classless Power Level 

 

Passive only scales with weapon quality (if applicable). And weapon quality is not about duration. So they don't scale (proc are passive). But consider class passive don't scale either (except exceptions ). Even BPM which gave some scaling to all passive (accuracy, damages, penetration) but never made the duration scale.

Active ability duration scales according to normal active ability rules.

Edited February 14 by Elric Galad

[Testlum]

One thing that might be a reason behind having so many abilities under the per rest system could be that the developers wanted to encourage swapping loadouts. We already see part of that in the additonal proficiencies you get by levelling up. I can't say it worked out that way for me though.

[Elric Galad]

2 minutes ago, Testlum said:

One thing that might be a reason behind having so many abilities under the per rest system could be that the developers wanted to encourage swapping loadouts. We already see part of that in the additonal proficiencies you get by levelling up. I can't say it worked out that way for me though.

Proceed rolling a Devoted

[Ivanfyodorovich]

4 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

BPM fixed broken stuff for items, not bad stuff. I didn't want to engage on this path. It's extremely hard to define a general rule. You may want all items to be somewhat "balanced", but I'm warning you it is a huge task, comparable to what BPM for abilities.

Yeah - I knew you made that choice for BPM, and I think it's the right one. I don't think a total system overhaul makes sense here, either. My thought was to try and do for a small number of items what BPM did for PL8 & 9 class abilities, and catch up a few bugs in the process, hopefully. 

4 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

So I'm just going to point a few case where it would make sense to give them a little rework :

- Trinkets, for the reasons discussed above

- Sad weapon category as a whole (e.g. we can discuss case of the warhammers)

- Sad design of a particular ability (Quieting, most of that Godlike amulet properties)

- Really scarce per rest ability. Maybe all per rest should be x2, unless they are very great.

- Absence of legendary quality on Soulbound equipement. Partially done by this : FG Soulbound Upgrade at Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Nexus - Mods and Community (nexusmods.com)

- Bad concurrent upgrades (shall be really strictly worse... Steadfast on Kill for Quieting just replaces 1s of Quieting, so I will NOT tweak it if it was me)

- Absence of weapon/armor scaling for item summons (same as BPM Summon Rebalance did for abilities summon)

- Also consider making more obvious obscure display. Too many items have been designed by Wael ("Grants random Mind Inspirations" and the likes...). It would not change gameplay but such a QoL improvement ! Why do I have to navigate through gamedta files get an exact idea of what an item does ? 

I think this is a really sensible list. 

4 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

My opinion on warhammer :

- Resounding Call : not the greatest, but there are a couple of very annoying battle where it is BiS. Nagas, 1st SSS fight, Auranic, FS final boss. Almost a "quest item".

- Glacierbane : 2 great upgrades : one is basically Animancer blade with a twist (not 100% raw but can overpenetrate). One is suspension of beneficial effect. Does I have to comment why it is great ? Still not your "main" weapon, but these 2 abilities are great.

- Last Word : just remove the lower level condition. This is ill design. The reason it would great is that it works vs anything. Affliction and Interrupting effect can get somewhat resisted. This not. And bosses get a lots of resistance/immunities. Maybe Splintered Haft shoul be aligned with BPM/CP tweak to Wounding Shot (if using a different status).

Resounding Call: My thinking here was just to make it worth using outside of 3 or 4 battles. Make the proc a little better, touch up the upgrades a smidge. 

Glacierbane: I think it's great, except the Harder Than Ice upgrade seemed like too much setup for a buff that isn't really needed. Hammers already trade base damage away for +1 pen and dual damage types. On top of that, they have a +pen modal. That said, I tested, and the buff lasts until the end of combat, so maybe it's fine. 2 stacks and +10% damage, too, would be better. Not a priority. edit: you can also stack it up outside of combat, and it will last until the end of the next combat. 

Last Word: Agreed on just removing lower level restriction. Probably fine. 

Edited February 14 by Ivanfyodorovich

[thelee]

7 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

- Resounding Call : not the greatest, but there are a couple of very annoying battle where it is BiS. Nagas, 1st SSS fight, Auranic, FS final boss. Almost a "quest item".

how does this help with Nagas?

but goddang i never ever made the connection that auranic sigils or the arcane lantern things in FS are destructibles. OK, i guess I have to remember to pick this item up now.

 

for glacierbane it's mostly that it's just boring, not that it's not good. very very hard to justify using over almost any other item category. where you can do more interesting things.

all combined i end up almost never ever using war hammers bc the unique items are so underwhelming, they end up being a dead-end category. there's no "chase" item. (but now i guess i'll have to reserve a slot for resounding call)

Edited February 14 by thelee

[Boeroer]

7 minutes ago, thelee said:

how does this help with Nagas?

Maybe because they often come with lots of totems/wards. Also most Naga fights in Hasongo have lots of barrels standing around - which gives you Thunderous Blows in every fight.

I think the random mind affliction on 50% of crits can be pretty cool.

Edited February 14 by Boeroer

[Ivanfyodorovich]

Progress Update

I went through the trinkets and made the following changes (mod files attached): 

• Changed the cast time of all abilities to Very Fast (1.7 seconds for all of them)
• Changed recovery time for all abilities that deal damage immediately on cast to Very Fast (2.0 seconds) 
  • Draconic Blast (Whispers of Neriscyrlas)
  • Final Flame (Detonator Shard)
• Changed recovery time for all abilities that do not deal damage immediately on cast to Instant (0.0 seconds)
• Changed all ability usage: 1 per rest > 1 per encounter
• Added +10 Accuracy to all attacks
• Update Keywords for 
  • Petrifying Venom (Spider Empress' Mandibles) - Poison (display only, attack already had the keyword)
  • Final Flame (Detonator Shard) - Fire (display only, attack already had the keyword)
  • Draconic Blast (Whispers of Neriscyrlas) - Acid (display only, attack already had the keyword)
  • Tayn's Chaotic Missiles (Tayn's Gratitude) - Summoned Weapon (display only, ability already had the keyword)
• Other changes
  • Draconic Blast (Whispers of Neriscyrlas)
    • Increased Base Penetration: 7 > 9
  • Llengrath's Warding Totem (Glasanam Argûes)
    • Reworked Ability to increase its uniqueness and power level. The original is a less useful version (because of positioning requirement and short duration) of the Level 9 Wizard Spell Llengrath's Reflection. 
      • Original ability creates a small (1.5m) area on the ground (no scaling) for 10s (no scaling). While the caster (does not affect any other characters) stands in the circle, 100% of spells are reflected. There is no limit to the number of spells that can be reflected in this way. 
      • Reworked ability has the same AoE and duration, but now resists 100 of spells, rather than reflecting. This makes the user immune to all hostile spell effects, including spells that are AoEs, which are normally not affected by Spell Reflect abilities. 

Some remaining questions/decisions:

• Tayn's Chaotic Missiles (Summoned Weapon) is typed as unarmed (with a fist icon). Should this be changed to wand or scepter? I seem to recall that Kalakoth's Minor Blights are considered a wand. At the very least, we could change the icon to be the same as Tayn's Chaotic Orb Spell. I can't figure how to do that in Apotheosis, so welcome any help. 
• Do the summons need scaling? 
  • Muātu's Aid (Muātu's Head)
    • Superb Weapon (Ngati's Tusk), joined my level 20 party as level 23, I think (summoned in Periki's Overlook)
  • Servants of the Stars (Celestial Agitator)
    • Have very small HP and die easily, but that's sort of by design, I think. They hit decently hard w/ a frost attack, but not much in the way of accuracy. 

Trinket Fix.rar

Edited February 18 by Ivanfyodorovich
Incorrect note on Warding Totem

[Chaospread]

Skull of the fallen: totally waste of quick item slot.