Transitioning from Cipher in PoE1 to a multiclass Cipher (or something else entirely) in Deadfire

[feainnewedds]

Hey all, I've just come off a replay of PoE1 and am jumping back into Deadfire. Looking for some advice on how to build my character.

I played a blunderbuss-wielding Cipher in PoE1, mainly used abilities like Puppet Master and Amplified Wave. I really enjoyed the CC aspect. I've run through Deadfire once before as a dual-wielding melee Mindstalker (Beguiler/Trickster I think) which was fun from memory but I'm wanting to try something a bit different this time (though it's been a couple of years so I'm not against another mindstalker). I'd like to multiclass Cipher as my own little headcanon is that my Watcher picked up some extra skills during her time at Caed Nua before the events of Deadfire. 

Party comp is basically the same as last time: Swashbuckler Eder (sword and board), Herald Pallegina (2H, WotEP), SC Wizard Aloth, SC Priest Xoti, Scout Maia (Red Hand/Dragon's Dowry), Theurge Tekehu, then whatever I decide to do with Serafen.

Basically: I'm having a tough time letting go of my attachment to my PoE1 playstyle. I want to multiclass and not play the exact same character again. I'm a few hours in as a dual-wielding Inquisitor but it's not grabbing me terribly well. I'll keep on it for now, then use some Unity Console magic to change stuff if I want to. 

It also seems like a lot of Cipher multiclasses rely on items or weapons I have pre-allocated to companions, like WotEP which seems to be the It Girl in Soulblade/riposte Rogue builds but is also an integral part of the Pallegina build I'm following. 

I'm thinking maybe I should break up with Cipher, but I keep getting pulled back in. Suggestions and the like very welcome!

[yorname]

Inquisitor is probably better for a solo character, since both paladin and cipher are very strong classes, but don't help with the other side, like at all.

Every cipher subclass has a different playstyle.

Soulblade and Beguiler are closer to a vanilla cipher, with Soulblade focusing on melee and Beguiler on casting. Soulblade works well with rogues, especially Streetfighter. Beguiler can work with almost everything, or as single class. The high tier cipher abilities are very powerful for a caster style.

Ascendant is extremely powerful as single class and can underperform with multiclass. The core spells and passives for them are mostly in tier 8 and 9. They are also the only subclass that can delete everyone in like 10 seconds for most fights.

 

Psion is the subclass I haven't played and also the most unique, works with caster multiclasses, but I think others that actually played it can explain it in detail.

[Kaylon]

Arcane archer/ascendant with Frostseeker/Essence Interrupter has hreat synergies and is both powerful and fun. It has great AoE dps which keeps ascended all the time - can be used as caster or ranged dps.

[Boeroer]

4 hours ago, yorname said:

Inquisitor is probably better for a solo character, since both paladin and cipher are very strong classes, but don't help with the other side, like at all.

Huh? 

6 hours ago, feainnewedds said:

It also seems like a lot of Cipher multiclasses rely on items or weapons

Psion and Beguiler usually don't.

One of the most versatile and fun cipher multiclasses I ever played was a Psion/Troubadour. It can just do everything well (except melee fights). It doesn't need any special items and almost never has to use a weapon for anything. Besides that it can focus on summons + mind control (very impactful combo), CC (loads of options from both classes), damage (invocations + chants + cipher powers), support and even healing. It's best to keep this guy out of trouble though and not make him the party's weakest target because he doesn't generate focus when getting damaged. 

If you like to stick to blunderbusses Cipher/Troubadour is still a good combo, just not with Psion but either with Ascendant or Beguiler. The Troubadour can uphold a chant with "Sure Handed Ila" & "Mith Fyr" at the same time without gap - which leads to very good shooting speed (because the reload AND recovery speedup of the Ila-phrase both apply to reloading weapons such as blunderbusses) while the fire lash from the second phrase Mith Fyr adds some damage and additional focus for every hit with the blunderbuss. And of course both phrases also help your party.
A Beguiler can get focus from either casting Deception spells or dealing damage (which is versatile) while the Ascendant only gains focus from dealing damage - but can ascend very quickly against either mobs with dual Serafen blunderbusses (mortars) or with the special shot "Thunderous Report" from the unique blunderbuss Kitchen Stove - or simply with regular blunderbusses against single foes. 

If you really like to use blunderbusses a lot then Ascendant/Streetfighter would be my pick. The modal of blunderbusses triggers the streetfighter's passive which makes him reload faster than anybody else while dealing crazy high dmg per hit bc. of higher Sneak Attack bonus (= more focus). Which makes him ascend fast which in turn lets him spit out spells on quick succession bc. of his reduced recovery time. Struggles with accuracy from time to time until he gets Borrowed Instincts.  

Cipher/Ranger is the multiclass with the potential highest accuracy. So if you want to shoot and cast with high accuracy then that's the way to go. Also Rangers have Driving Fligjht which lets your shots bounce once. It stacks with weapons' own bounces (see Fire in the Hole, one of Serafen's mortars he can get) which can be quite a show and also adds quite a lot of damage and focus against mobs.

    

Edited January 22 by Boeroer

[yorname]

I mean the cipher is probably the last person in the party I want to do tanking or healing, so wasting the best stuff from the paladin side.

[Boeroer]

Paladins can do more than tank and heal - for example the support abilites of both classes can work together very well.

But besides that an Inquisitor could for example combine the Paladin's passive defenses with the Cipher's Psychovampiric Shield and Borrowed Instincts and become super tanky - while still being able to do other impactful stuff which a more traditional tank wouldn't be able to do. So I wouldn't say that paladin and cipher don't help with the other side at all.

For a CC-oriented Cipher with blunderbusses a paladin might not be the optimal choice maybe... unless you are using a Kind Wayfarer, then it's cool if you plan to use White Flames + Exalted Endurace and heal your party while shooting enemies/gaining focus for the next CC thing. 

[yorname]

That's a fair point.

By the way, nothing to do with cipher, but isn't White Flame's AOE super tiny? IIRC it's way smaller than paladin aura or chant, last time when I played one with 20ish INT he couldn't even cover melee characters if I wanted to flank a boss

[thelee]

5 hours ago, yorname said:

By the way, nothing to do with cipher, but isn't White Flame's AOE super tiny? IIRC it's way smaller than paladin aura or chant, last time when I played one with 20ish INT he couldn't even cover melee characters if I wanted to flank a boss

i believe it's comparable to restore or moonlight - 1.5m, centered on paladin. So yeah, it will be hard to cover a large area with it, even with decent int. won't help you if you're flanking a dragon, but worked pretty well for me in the typical scrum of humanoid-sized combatants.

 

edit: it's probably the same area as shared flames. 1.5m seems really tiny actually, it might be 2m.

Edited January 23 by thelee

[Testlum]

Looks like White Flames has a 2.5m radius according to the attacks.gamedatabundle file, same as Shared Flames.

[Boeroer]

I used a dual pistol SC Kind Wayfarer not too long ago (plan was to shoot White Flames non-stop in combination with the party's Troubadour summoning Many Lives  for unlimited Zeal via Devine Retribution).

I was able to make all my surrounding casters and shooters almost unkillable because of the constant healing - and I didn't really try to keep them together in a particularly tight formation. So 2.5m base radius sounds right to me.

By the way: very useful party member which required almost zero attention (unless some exhortations had to be cast).

[feainnewedds]

 

On 1/23/2024 at 4:14 AM, Boeroer said:

If you like to stick to blunderbusses Cipher/Troubadour is still a good combo, just not with Psion but either with Ascendant or Beguiler.

I do like the sound of a cipher/chanter, most likely ranged since my party is shaping up to be pretty melee-heavy. I was thinking dual-wielded pistols might also be an option. Frostseeker seems to be a pretty popular ranged weapon too so it looks like I've got some good stuff to spend those weapon proficiencies on. I'm planning on having Pallegina and Tekehu both being chanter multiclasses so I'll have at least one in my party at all times, probably two. I don't think I should be stepping on anyone's toes with chant selection too terribly much. There's also not a whole heap in terms of builds for a spiritualist on here, so I'm having some difficulty mapping what (at least to me) seems like a very ability-hungry multiclass. Do you have any suggestions Boeroer?

[Boeroer]

7 hours ago, feainnewedds said:

I do like the sound of a cipher/chanter, most likely ranged since my party is shaping up to be pretty melee-heavy. I was thinking dual-wielded pistols might also be an option. Frostseeker seems to be a pretty popular ranged weapon too so it looks like I've got some good stuff to spend those weapon proficiencies on. I'm planning on having Pallegina and Tekehu both being chanter multiclasses so I'll have at least one in my party at all times, probably two. I don't think I should be stepping on anyone's toes with chant selection too terribly much. There's also not a whole heap in terms of builds for a spiritualist on here, so I'm having some difficulty mapping what (at least to me) seems like a very ability-hungry multiclass. Do you have any suggestions Boeroer?

Frostseeker ist absolutely great with Cipher/Rager like Kaylon suggested. It also works well with a Cipher/CHanter but honestly I personally prefer reloading weapons for this class combination - just because the phrase "Sure-Handed Ila" works so well with them (speed bonus applies twice for realoading weapons instead of only once for bows and implements). So dual pistols can indeed be an option. 

In terms of abilities you don't need many from the Chanter's side. My phrases would be Sure-Handed Ila + Aefyllath Ues Myth Fir and not much else (because you plan to have other chanters in the party who can pick other useful phrases like Ancient Memory and whatnot). As a ranged character you cannot use short-ranged invocation much anyway, so maybe a good summon spell would be my first pick. Wurms are good at first but they don't scale well. Unfortunaltely a lot of summon spells don't scale well so you will have to retrain at some point for optimal results. The best summon later are the animated weapons. And then it depends on what you want to do most. For CC Killers Froze Stiff is good (the range is long enough to be used from the back row with decent INT) and also Hel-Hyraf and Ben Fidel's Neck (defense debuff stacks with almost everything) have similar cone length and are useful. For Ciphers I always take mind control abilities besides the passives for better focus (Draining Whip) and PEN. I personally will use Puppet Master a lot if I can. The combination of summons (chanter) + mind control (cipher) is very impactful in most encounters.  I'll always take Borrowed Instincts because it's so good. And then there's a lot of room for other stuff I guess. Oh: Two-handed Style if dual pistol. 

Edited January 25 by Boeroer

[feainnewedds]

On 1/26/2024 at 12:19 AM, Boeroer said:

In terms of abilities you don't need many from the Chanter's side. My phrases would be Sure-Handed Ila + Aefyllath Ues Myth Fir and not much else (because you plan to have other chanters in the party who can pick other useful phrases like Ancient Memory and whatnot). As a ranged character you cannot use short-ranged invocation much anyway, so maybe a good summon spell would be my first pick. Wurms are good at first but they don't scale well. Unfortunaltely a lot of summon spells don't scale well so you will have to retrain at some point for optimal results. The best summon later are the animated weapons. And then it depends on what you want to do most. For CC Killers Froze Stiff is good (the range is long enough to be used from the back row with decent INT) and also Hel-Hyraf and Ben Fidel's Neck (defense debuff stacks with almost everything) have similar cone length and are useful. For Ciphers I always take mind control abilities besides the passives for better focus (Draining Whip) and PEN. I personally will use Puppet Master a lot if I can. The combination of summons (chanter) + mind control (cipher) is very impactful in most encounters.  I'll always take Borrowed Instincts because it's so good. And then there's a lot of room for other stuff I guess. Oh: Two-handed Style if dual pistol. 

Great advice as always, I'll start planning a build around your recommendations. Looks like INT and PER will be my two highest stats for AoE/accuracy, CON can be dumped since I'll be at the back and will have summons. Anything else I might be missing?

[Boeroer]

10 hours ago, feainnewedds said:

Anything else I might be missing?

Hm, I can't think of anything at the moment. Maybe: if you dump CON because you don't plan to get attacked lot you might as well completely commit to the way of the glascannon and dump RES, too.  

[feainnewedds]

On 1/28/2024 at 9:49 PM, Boeroer said:

Hm, I can't think of anything at the moment. Maybe: if you dump CON because you don't plan to get attacked lot you might as well completely commit to the way of the glascannon and dump RES, too.  

I've ended up going 10/8/14/18/16/12 with racial/culture bonuses but might drop RES down to 10 and put the extra 2 points in INT/PER/DEX. Miscreant's Leathers seem like a good armour choice because of the recovery reduction. Hand Mortar + Fire in the Hole will likely be my main weapon set, Frostseeker will likely get some use before I get both. Otherwise it'll be best in slot pistols/blunderbusses. Do you have any other gear recommendations?

[Boeroer]

Yes: Acina's Tricorn and Ring of the Marksman are two very good items for ranged combat.