I have to admit... I am dissapointed by the interview news.

[Tnecniw]

In the recent PC gamer article discussing Avowed they mention a few points...
 

• You have an established role as the imperial envoy, but your "personality, appearance, and philosophy and vibe you bring to that role is up to you as a player to decide"
• You can play as a human or an elf, but not other races
• It's purely singleplayer—no co-op
• The world is lightly systemic: think water and lightning interactions, but not the ol' bucket-on-the-head trick
• You'll have two companions with you at a time, with their own combat specialties and, of course, personalities
• There are several ability trees to progress through, and you won't be locked to a particular class or playstyle
• You will level up, but the focus is on unlocking abilities rather than putting points into stats to grow stronger

 

Two of these points stand out to an extreme to me...
1: You can play as a human or an elf, but not other races.
I can understand this to a certain degree. The size difference between an Orlan and an Aumauan would make things difficult...
But at the same time, no Dwarfs? No Godlikes? You better allow us to specifify Pale elf or I will go through the roof!
This seveerely limits roleplay potential and significantly reduces my desire to play the game, I have to be honest, especially godlike as it was one of the most interesting aspects of Eora and not being able to play this is sad.

2: There are several ability trees to progress through, and you won't be locked to a particular class or playstyle
I was GENUINELY afraid this would be the case.
Lorewise it makes no sense for there not to be a class system, as multiple of the classes in Eora work through the act of lifelong practice. You can't just pick up a grimoire and cast fireball, that isn't how magic works!.
HEck you need to be born as a cipher, you can't just learn those skills willynilly!
Combined that with the fact that I am so ABSURDLY tired of ability trees. I am sick of them.
They limit creativity, they are usually filled with boring filler and deliver no challenge! It is the issue with skyrim that almost everytime I play it I default to sneak + bow, because it is the most OP stuff in the game, why would I not do it here then? 
Classes also motivates multiple playthroughs and allows more unique interactions in game.
IT gives the character... character. ANd it is so dissapointing to see it just being another BORING system of trees.

I am GENUINELY dissapointed in these reveals
As someone that genuinely adores Pillars of Eternity 1 and 2, does this feel like a massive fallout 3 moment (And no, this is not a good thing).
 

[Wormerine]

I don't think class system makes much sense for a single player game. A starting kit yes, but classes mostly work well in party settings.

Limited races are a shame - while it would be tricky to properly represent Aumaua or Orlan, that also could be very fun.

 

I do look at the trailer and feel PoE3 would be so so much more exciting, but at the same time it is not PoE3. It is Avowed, and while it is in the same universe it is a different game.

 

I am more worried by the tone of the trailer. It feels like a very generic power fantasy and to me it lacked character. Original teaser had a neat tone, very PoE-like. This one could be anything

Edited June 11, 2023 by Wormerine

[Tnecniw]

5 minutes ago, Wormerine said:

I don't think class system makes much sense for a single player game. A starting kit yes, but classes mostly work well in party settings.

Limited races are a shame - while it would be tricky to properly represent Aumaua or Orlan, that also could be very fun.

 

I do look at the trailer and feel PoE3 would be so so much more exciting, but at the same time it is not PoE3. It is Avowed, and while it is in the same universe it is a different game.

 

I am more worried by the tone of the trailer. It feels like a very generic power fantasy and to me it "lacked" a character. Original teaser had a neat tone, very PoE-like. This one could be anything.

I am just frustrated is all.
Besides, as stated in my post... classes in the setting of Eora are like professions.
You don't just pick one up haphazardly and use it professionally.

Wizards spend decades studying.
Druids learn from youth how to communicate with nature.
Rangers bond for life.
The ONLY class in Eora that could be picked up on a whim (in theory) is fighter and rogue.
However even they are lifetime long pursuits to master.

How are they going to justify this one?

[the_dog_days]

Looks like I can safely nope out of this one.

[NikolaNesic]

Class are big part of RPG and if you can take from many skill tree, it end up be like another Skyrim clone that is not really good thing.

Again this is fantasy RPG so why limmit us to only Human or Elf most boring race in fantasy setting??? what about godlike or dwarf like wtf this is big worrying news.

Also for me personally if game is only First person only is also big minus, i want to see my character in game with his gear and in action not just in inventory like some manikin.

 Both Pillars of Eternity are great game shame this game limmit you so much from start.

[InsaneCommander]

I have no problem with the race part, since I usually play as a human or elf anyway, but as for the ability tree, I'd rather have classes. That said, I need more information before deciding how much I like or dislike the system in this game. Who knows, perhaps there is no cypher at all or your character has the potential to choose any class. The recent trailer does mention some form of power that could save or destroy. It doesn't sound like a typical Eoran.

[Munky_]

I agree.

I was disappointed to learn that this is shaping up to be The Outer Worlds, but fantasy.

Hopefully they can avoid the issues that plagued that title. 

[the_dog_days]

It's very likely that if Avowed is commercially successful, all of the cool rpg mechanics of Pillars (personality reputations, races of different heights, classes with original class mechanics, backgrounds, etc.) will get sanded away forever from the franchise. Just like with Elder Scrolls.

[NikolaNesic]

1 hour ago, the_dog_days said:

It's very likely that if Avowed is commercially successful, all of the cool rpg mechanics of Pillars (personality reputations, races of different heights, classes with original class mechanics, backgrounds, etc.) will get sanded away forever from the franchise. Just like with Elder Scrolls.

See that is another thing if Avowed get successful and that is big if, it can go that way they just remove all cool stuff like you say and move to next copy of Elder Scrolls clon.

Also the argument some people have o wait  if this title get successful in next game they will add RPG mechanics or Third Person/First Person view and so on, but problem with that is there is nothing from stoping them from saying, we know people like RPG mechanir, race, reputation, class, Third Person or First Person view but we can't add that in this game and reasons for that are i don't know we get up on left foot this morning or something.

[Boeroer]

9 hours ago, Tnecniw said:

You better allow us to specifify Pale elf or I will go through the roof!

Time for you to put on a helmet. Aedyr is inhabited and ruled by humans and wood elves. Your char is an official envoy from Aedyr. You will be either human or wood elf, I'll bet on it. 

[Boeroer]

For what it's worth: Josh Sawyer's own Pillars of Eternity Table Top/Pen and Paper rules also have no classes. 

No classes doesn't mean you didn't have to study your craft in-universe.

Multiclassing is nothing else than softening the borders between classes and a step towards a classless system. And it's just mechanics. It doesn't necessarily define what your life looks like and how you learn your craft. There is always an explanation why an "official" Wizard might have the determination and discipline of a fighter but also some skullduggery and guild of a rogue and so on. 

Edited June 12, 2023 by Boeroer

[Sonntam]

12 hours ago, Tnecniw said:

I am just frustrated is all.
Besides, as stated in my post... classes in the setting of Eora are like professions.
You don't just pick one up haphazardly and use it professionally.

Wizards spend decades studying.
Druids learn from youth how to communicate with nature.
Rangers bond for life.
The ONLY class in Eora that could be picked up on a whim (in theory) is fighter and rogue.
However even they are lifetime long pursuits to master.

How are they going to justify this one?

Have they not already justified it in the trailer voice-over? 

The aumaua doing the exposition dump explicitly calls us out on being a weird kind of OP monster for being able to do what we do. That would be, I assume, our knack for learning various ways to kill people.

I myself do agree that class based combat mechanics tend to be more distinct and more fun, but let's be honest, finding a justification in lore is always easy. 

[Wormerine]

13 hours ago, Tnecniw said:

I am just frustrated is all.
Besides, as stated in my post... classes in the setting of Eora are like professions.
You don't just pick one up haphazardly and use it professionally.

We are not playing a custom character though, but customising an existing one.

As Boreorer pointed out Adeyr consist mostly of Meadow Folk and Wood elves so expecting us to be one of the two makes sense lore wise.

I have speculated a while ago that we might play as an arcane knight (like the one Aloth trained to be) - that would make sense as an Adeyrian representative, would set our "profession" while still allowing for customisation. We see in trailer the PC using both physical combat and magic so something of that sort might be what's happening here.

The trailer gives me more of Messiah of Might & Magic vibes than Skyrim. I wonder how accurate that take is.

[Tnecniw]

34 minutes ago, Wormerine said:

We are not playing a custom character though, but customising an existing one.

As Boreorer pointed out Adeyr consist mostly of Meadow Folk and Wood elves so expecting us to be one of the two makes sense lore wise.

I have speculated a while ago that we might play as an arcane knight (like the one Aloth trained to be) - that would make sense as an Adeyrian representative, would set our "profession" while still allowing for customisation. We see in trailer the PC using both physical combat and magic so something of that sort might be what's happening here.

The trailer gives me more of Messiah of Might & Magic vibes than Skyrim. I wonder how accurate that take is.

The argument regarding meadow folk or wood elf makes sense on paper.
But it is only a limitation for as far as the devs want it to be.
There are Dwarves, Orlans and Amuauan's in Aedyr.
And it would not be difficult to add that your character is a special case that reached a high rank due to effort and skill. (Being the MC that would explain a lot)
(Heck, could be something interesting interactions regarding the oddity of you being neither elf nor human)

Obviously, I get the main reason why Orlan and Amuauan's aren't choices because they have such size difference that a PoV would be very tricky from their perspective.
But it is still annoying.
Also that does not explain why godlike isn't on the table, considering that they can easily be human or elf related.

Regarding only being an Arcane Knight, that would be fair. If they want us to be that specific.
(However I find the idea of them restricting us to such a degree really dull)
However I would in such a case wish that they were upfront about it.
Explaining that that is why we don't choose a class, because it is pre-determined.

I dunno, I just want a good RPG set in the world of Eora, as I love the setting so much.
And this more looks like an RPG lite (like Fallout) which is a bit dissapointing.

[Wormerine]

23 minutes ago, Tnecniw said:

I dunno, I just want a good RPG set in the world of Eora, as I love the setting so much.

And this more looks like an RPG lite (like Fallout) which is a bit dissapointing.

I agree overall. I try to decouple my personal expectation with it being at least somewhat tied to PoEs with what Avowed is meant to be, but it is not easy. It is a new IP for a reason.

I do have some questions as to how much of an RPG it really is. With a set role, what seems like combat heavy gameplay and non-skippable companions it sounds to me more like action game if potential light RPG elements rather than what I would consider an action RPG.

I am mostly disappointed as I hoped Avowed to be THE RPG from Obsidian - while it seems they have been moving away lately from player driven RPGs in favour of more focused genres with a touch of Obsidian narrative.

[Tnecniw]

21 minutes ago, Wormerine said:

I agree overall. I try to decouple my personal expectation with it being at least somewhat tied to PoEs with what Avowed is meant to be, but it is not easy. It is a new IP for a reason.

I do have some questions as to how much of an RPG it really is. With a set role, what seems like combat heavy gameplay and non-skippable companions it sounds to me more like action game if potential light RPG elements rather than what I would consider an action RPG.

I am mostly disappointed as I hoped Avowed to be THE RPG from Obsidian - while it seems they have been moving away lately from player driven RPGs in favour of more focused genres with a touch of Obsidian narrative.

It is frustrating when a "Niche" gametype like CRPG's tend to have such good RPG set ups.
but a first person "RPG" tend to go incredibly light and simple. Making it much less enjoyable.
And I can't (For the life of me) understand why the translation would be difficult?

What exactly of the game structure between PoE2 Deadfire and... well Avowed makes RPG content more didfficult?
I mean, the world detail would obviously be more complex due to the first person view, that I undersand.
But I have no idea why the RPG elements would be sanded down.
(And this happens ALL THE TIME as well, FPS RPGs are always much more simple than CRPG counter parts)

[Wormerine]

I suppose heavy abstraction of stat driven cRPG makes it easier to add breath. For example a difference between melee weapons in PoE2 will come down to damage rolled, PEN threshhold, recovery time and modal. In first person action RPG you need a unique and satisfying swing with appropriate hitbox etc. If Avowed will have decent melee combat with variety if weapons that already will be impressive. Even if you diffirenciate each weapon in statistic it is not something that will be easily felt in gameplay. So yeah, I do think adding variety to an action combat is much much more difficult.

In general action-RPG seems to me like the most tricky combination you could try to do - I am surprised how popular it is, considering (in my opinion) how rare it is for it to turn out well. One one hand you have input driven action combat, and on the other you want stat/perk based customisation. Those tend to go completely against each other.

And I think the whole point of Avowed is to have a wider appeal than underperforming PoE1&2 so simplification goes hand in hand.

Edited June 12, 2023 by Wormerine

[Tnecniw]

15 minutes ago, Wormerine said:

I suppose heavy abstraction of stat driven cRPG makes it easier to add breath. For example a difference between melee weapons in PoE2 will come down to damage rolled, PEN threshhold, recovery time and modal. In first person action RPG you need a unique and satisfying swing with appropriate hitbox etc. If Avowed will have decent melee combat with variety if weapons that already will be impressive. Even if you diffirenciate each weapon in statistic it is not something that will be easily felt in gameplay. So yeah, I do think adding variety to an action combat is much much more difficult.

In general action-RPG seems to me like the most tricky combination you could try to do - I am surprised how popular it is, considering (in my opinion) how rare it is for it to turn out well. One one hand you have input driven action combat, and on the other you want stat/perk based customisation. Those tend to go completely against each other.

And I think the whole point of Avowed is to have a wider appeal than underperforming PoE1&2 so simplification goes hand in hand.

One of the reasons I hate the casual gaming audience... (That and EA sports still managing to sell billions of cards that are next to illegal in a fair few countries)
"We don't want hard and complex games! We want to slap things around with the equivalent of artifical pool noodles and see damage being done!"
"The story has complex themes about morals where it is unclear which side is actually right? I DON'T WANT THAT! I WANT TO BE THE HERO!"
I am so tired...
SO SO tired of all of that.
The mythical "Wider audience" that is as fickle as a candle in a blizzard.
That half of the time doesn't even truly exist and most games aiming for the wider audience automatically fails because the previous hardcore fans didn't have anything appealing to them.

*deep sigh*
I want the 90s to early 2000s back please...

[Torm51]

1 hour ago, Wormerine said:

I suppose heavy abstraction of stat driven cRPG makes it easier to add breath. For example a difference between melee weapons in PoE2 will come down to damage rolled, PEN threshhold, recovery time and modal. In first person action RPG you need a unique and satisfying swing with appropriate hitbox etc. If Avowed will have decent melee combat with variety if weapons that already will be impressive. Even if you diffirenciate each weapon in statistic it is not something that will be easily felt in gameplay. So yeah, I do think adding variety to an action combat is much much more difficult.

In general action-RPG seems to me like the most tricky combination you could try to do - I am surprised how popular it is, considering (in my opinion) how rare it is for it to turn out well. One one hand you have input driven action combat, and on the other you want stat/perk based customisation. Those tend to go completely against each other.

And I think the whole point of Avowed is to have a wider appeal than underperforming PoE1&2 so simplification goes hand in hand.

According to a very recent Sawyer interview Deadfire was very profitable over the long run it just started slow.

 

 https://www.originstory.show/episodes/josh-sawyer

 

That said with Outer Worlds success I understand the way they are going. I prefer CRPG style with different races and classes  but I get the race thing is probably  a mechanical thing and understand that maybe for a 1st person game classes is harder to do….I’ll definitely play cause I love the setting and want to see the Living Lands…I just hope I can play a Paladin it’s my fav thing of PoE and it not look samey as other  rolls like in Skyrim.

 

A melee healer uses the same magic as a wizard healing himself in elder scrolls, it’s very samey.

Edited June 12, 2023 by Torm51

[Wormerine]

56 minutes ago, Torm51 said:

According to a very recent Sawyer interview Deadfire was very profitable over the long run it just started slow.

 https://www.originstory.show/episodes/josh-sawyer

He did indeed say "very profitable".

Well, Obsidian, where is my PoE3? No excuses now.

[Torm51]

1 minute ago, Wormerine said:

He did indeed say "very profitable".

Well, Obsidian, where is my PoE3? No excuses now.

I was surprised when I read it too lol. Since the narrative for so long was that it wasn’t. Let’s go POE 3!! 

Edited June 12, 2023 by Torm51

[Wormerine]

49 minutes ago, Torm51 said:

I was surprised when I read it too lol. Since the narrative for so long was that it wasn’t. Let’s go POE 3!! 

Actually the game broke even after 18 months. It seems the game kept selling after that. Great. For all its faults PoE2 deserved better than it initially got.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Wormerine said:

He did indeed say "very profitable".

Well, Obsidian, where is my PoE3? No excuses now.

My recollection of the evolving thought process sounds something like, "we're not going to make part 3 until we understand why part 2 didn't sell" -> "we're not going to make part 3 until we feel like working on another Pillars game". I suspect that the latter will happen eventually, but only after the pain of the former subsides a bit.

[Torm51]

13 minutes ago, Wormerine said:

Actually the game broke even after 18 months. It seems the game kept selling after that. Great. For all its faults PoE2 deserved better than it initially got.

100% agree.

[Gleenslayer]

Personally, I always end up choosing humans or elves, or something that reminds me more of the humans in the RPG's I play, so for me, more important than race is being able to customize the character's appearance, so for me it's okay to have only two races.

Regarding the classes. Yes, that concerns me. I would like to see Pillars of Eternity spells in Avowed, and that does happen in the trailer with some druid and mage spells, but the question is will we get spells from all classes?
Mainly because we are not locked into a certain class choice, how will we get high-level spells from other schools? If it's via talents, I expect talent choices to be meaningful and impactful in gameplay. And if it's via purchases or scroll drops, I hope it's well balanced.

My biggest concern right now is combat. I really LOVE Skyrim, but its combat is so bad and outdated, the only way to make it cool is via mods. I like more complex combat than the old "tank and spank".

What I expect as basics in Avowed's combat:

- Parry system with shield or dual blade;
- Cast and interrupt system;
- Dodge system;
- Combos and melee skills in addition to spam auto-attacks.

Seriously, if they make combat good, innovative and fun, the rest can be fixed with patches and DLC's, in case there is a problem. More important to me is the gameplay and the story.