Ukraine Conflict

[BruceVC]

9 hours ago, Zoraptor said:

(and friends; natives died out before european discovery), 

I dont want to hijack the Ukraine thread so this will be my last post on this topic but this really made me laugh

I had this image of salamanders being  aggrieved by Colonialism 

[xzar_monty]

Interesting stuff on Russian recruitment; a thread.

 

[Mamoulian War]

 

[Mamoulian War]

There is a pretty big probability, that some longer range missiles have entered the “game” in Ukraine, and might bring some change to the shape of battlefield, as hitting the Wagner HQ Melitopol with HIMARS would be considered very risky move. Two candidates so far, either Vilkha-M newest UA made missile, or some Turkish missile, which name has eluded me.

 

 

[Mamoulian War]

And another smoking incident in Russia, about 1000km far from Ukraine.

And this is another example, how Russia takes care of their mobilised soldiers.

 

Edited December 12, 2022 by Mamoulian War

[Lexx]

If this is how they treat their own people, imagine how they are treating the immigrants that are being forced into the military right now.

[Malcador]

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/scholz-compares-ukraine-reconstruction-to-us-marshall-plan/2762129

"“The reconstruction of Ukraine will be a task for humanity, comparable to the Marshall Plan after World War II,” the chancellor told a news conference in Berlin."

The geopolitically irrelevant can suck on it as usual.

[Mamoulian War]

Unfortunatelly for Yemen, they are not seen as a Fortress against Mordor with nuclear arsenal. Like it or not, This really helps Ukraine a lot. All the Eastern European countries, with the exception of Hungary, will gladly throw as much money at reconstruction and defense of Ukraine as possible, just to keep the Orcs as far away from them as possible.

Is it fair? No. Do I like that some countries have bigger value than others? Not really. But on the other hand. If Ukraine manages to win some day, rebuilding it with my taxpayer money, will make my family lives safer for decades to come (not only from military perspective, but also Neonazis here will lose their funding from Kremlin, and with it, their political power). Unfortunately, the same cannot be said for rebuilding Yemen, Iraq, nor Afghanistan. And yes… It sucks a lot…

Edited December 13, 2022 by Mamoulian War

[Malcador]

People still going on with the Ukraine first, then NATO idea ? But I assume something was lost in translation with Scholz, or at least I hope. It is just funny to see such over the top stuff such as that - another article quoted him as saying "for all Mankind" which is even more so.

[BruceVC]

5 hours ago, Mamoulian War said:

Unfortunatelly for Yemen, they are not seen as a Fortress against Mordor with nuclear arsenal. Like it or not, This really helps Ukraine a lot. All the Eastern European countries, with the exception of Hungary, will gladly throw as much money at reconstruction and defense of Ukraine as possible, just to keep the Orcs as far away from them as possible.

Is it fair? No. Do I like that some countries have bigger value than others? Not really. But on the other hand. If Ukraine manages to win some day, rebuilding it with my taxpayer money, will make my family lives safer for decades to come (not only from military perspective, but also Neonazis here will lose their funding from Kremlin, and with it, their political power). Unfortunately, the same cannot be said for rebuilding Yemen, Iraq, nor Afghanistan. And yes… It sucks a lot…

On Codex there is a fairly common argument from some Vatniks, because they dont all support Russia for the same reason, that basically says "Ukraine has already lost because there country has been destroyed and the West wont help rebuild because the West doesnt really care because this war is just about stopping Russia, who of course were provoked and are the victims, and Ukraine is just being used " 

Its historically inaccurate and ignores the reasons for the support the West is giving Ukraine so in other words its normal Vatnik cope and hyperbole 

The West absolutely will and does assist in rebuild of countries when its about there national interest, look at Japan and Germany after WW2

As you said the outcomes of this  war is about the overall stability of the EU and finally making a stand against the warmongering and  hegemony of Putins Russia  and his pipedream to recreate the old Soviet borders. And yet this has been fought in a country that is not part of the EU yet. So at the end the very least the West can do its assist with reconstruction costs because its in  there own national interests indirectly ( and I say indirectly because its not an invasion of an EU or NATO country which would be a much harsher  and military response to Russia)

Reconstruction aid will come from normal loans, low interest loans and free aid.

But I am absolutely confident that Ukraine will be rebuilt because its in the best long term interests of the West 

 

 

 

 

 

[Lexx]

5 hours ago, Malcador said:

People still going on with the Ukraine first, then NATO idea ? But I assume something was lost in translation with Scholz, or at least I hope. It is just funny to see such over the top stuff such as that - another article quoted him as saying "for all Mankind" which is even more so.

I watched his talk, he says it will be a "Menschheitsaufgabe" - a task for humanity is a correct translation, though to me it feels a bit overblown in english. Could probably also translate it as "task for all of mankind" but idk. It's a single sentence in a 20 minutes talk, and before a few months ago they tried to avoid the topic as much as possible, so I wouldn't give much weight to it. I guess they just gave in because they got criticized hard for not doing anything and now they double down on the support. At least in public.

However, keep in mind that he also said that talk with russia could resume if they end the war. So basically if russia would retreat now and completely leave ukraine, we would be inclined to act as if nothing ever happened.

Edited December 13, 2022 by Lexx

[BruceVC]

5 hours ago, Malcador said:

People still going on with the Ukraine first, then NATO idea ? But I assume something was lost in translation with Scholz, or at least I hope. It is just funny to see such over the top stuff such as that - another article quoted him as saying "for all Mankind" which is even more so.

Im not sure what you mean when you say "People still going on with the Ukraine first, then NATO idea" ?

[xzar_monty]

4 hours ago, Lexx said:

I watched his talk, he says it will be a "Menschheitsaufgabe" - a task for humanity is a correct translation, though to me it feels a bit overblown in english. Could probably also translate it as "task for all of mankind" but idk. It's a single sentence in a 20 minutes talk, and before a few months ago they tried to avoid the topic as much as possible, so I wouldn't give much weight to it.

There's a surprising amount of this around, "this" meaning two things:

1) Translations that are inaccurate enough to make a professional wince, and

2) Nitpickety snark focusing on individual words with little or no regard to context. Doing this is not wrong as such, because the words really are there, it just makes you wonder why some are so keen on it, as it serves no fruitful purpose. I remember lawyers being described as "small-print leeches", i.e. avaricious people overly focused on technicalities, and there's something of that in this attitude.

@Mamoulian War: Seems to me that the Russian officer who said “I never thought my own country would treat me this way" in the Twitter link you posted knows nothing about the real history of his country. Incidentally, this is what the current regime is aiming for, in schools. (By the way, I was recently reminded of Russian history in a personal sense, from before the time when the current Putinist Russia was rightly regarded as a madly militant and totally untrustworthy kleptocracy. Back in the 1980s, when the Soviet Union was still around, sporting people from my hometown went to Moscow to play in a tournament. Currency was obviously exchanged via the black market. But one of the most astonishing things was, in retrospect, the sense of almost pity that the country aroused: the travelers from my hometown had money to spare but there was nothing in Moscow worth buying. This enormous entity and superpower called the Soviet Union hadn't been able to produce anything that young and eager sportspeople would have found interesting. Everything was either rubbish or trash, that's what you could choose between. It actually wasn't a huge wake-up call back then, but the memory seems much more poignant now. Even far-off developing countries had interesting exotica, but the SU lacked that, too.)

Edited December 13, 2022 by xzar_monty

[xzar_monty]

Wow! Putin's traditional news conference will not happen this year. I suppose even keeping up the charade might have had too much incendiary potential, or something. But it is remarkable that this has now been cancelled.

BBC reports: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63947946

I suppose nearly all news sources report this, too.

[Sarex]

https://www.reuters.com/world/putin-russia-may-have-make-ukraine-deal-one-day-partners-cheated-past-2022-12-09/

I mean everyone knew this, but it's another thing to hear it from the horse's mouth...

[xzar_monty]

20 minutes ago, Sarex said:

https://www.reuters.com/world/putin-russia-may-have-make-ukraine-deal-one-day-partners-cheated-past-2022-12-09/

I mean everyone knew this, but it's another thing to hear it from the horse's mouth...

Just as a theoretical question: what kind of thing would make you think that Putin is perhaps wrong, or not telling the truth? Would you be prepared to agree with him about absolutely everything that he says? If not, whereabouts would you draw the line?

Edited December 13, 2022 by xzar_monty

[Sarex]

I was talking about this

Quote

In an interview published in Germany's Zeit magazine on Wednesday, former German chancellor Angela Merkel said that the Minsk agreements had been an attempt to "give Ukraine time" to build up its defences.

 

4 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

Just as a theoretical question: what kind of thing would make you think that Putin is perhaps wrong, or not telling the truth? Would you be prepared to agree with him about absolutely everything that he says? If not, whereabouts would you draw the line?

I have no illusions regarding Russia, but likewise that is also the case with the west. The issue is that anything anyone says against Ukraine or it's western allies you take as a bow to Russia and Putin.

[Lexx]

Not sure what's wrong with it. Was it in the agreement that Ukraine will not build up their defenses? Would be pretty stupid if that's the case.

[xzar_monty]

5 minutes ago, Sarex said:

I have no illusions regarding Russia, but likewise that is also the case with the west. The issue is that anything anyone says against Ukraine or it's western allies you take as a bow to Russia and Putin.

When you say "you take", do you mean me personally? Or the people on this forum? Or just people in general?

If it's me personally, then that's just not true. For example, I have personally spoken against Ukraine here: the country remains far too corrupt and isn't even close to fulfilling EU criteria, even if it wants to join. This is not bowing to Russia and Putin. As for the Western allies, I think there's plenty that Germany and France, especially, ought to hide their heads in shame about. Ditto.

When you make a claim concerning "anything anyone says" it's almost impossible for it to be true. So I'd prefer a more considered statement. If you mean to say that people are wildly in favor of Ukraine and sometimes go too far with it, for emotional reasons especially, then I agree with you, but that's completely different from what you actually say.

Edited December 13, 2022 by xzar_monty

[Malcador]

7 hours ago, BruceVC said:

Im not sure what you mean when you say "People still going on with the Ukraine first, then NATO idea" ?

Been part of marketing to get aid for Ukraine to say if Ukraine falls somehow Russia will then attack NATO members...because some how mystically Article 5 won't work because NATO didn't defend a non-member.  Ergo, we must give them ATACMS, Arleigh Burkes, etc. Not sure the endpoint there as well.

  

16 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

Just as a theoretical question: what kind of thing would make you think that Putin is perhaps wrong, or not telling the truth? Would you be prepared to agree with him about absolutely everything that he says? If not, whereabouts would you draw the line?

Strange questions to ask.

Edited December 13, 2022 by Malcador

[BruceVC]

1 hour ago, xzar_monty said:

 

When you make a claim concerning "anything anyone says" it's almost impossible for it to be true. So I'd prefer a more considered statement. If you mean to say that people are wildly in favor of Ukraine and sometimes go too far with it, for emotional reasons especially, then I agree with you, but that's completely different from what you actually say.

Well its not surprising many people support Ukraine considering the warmongering, constant anti-Western sentiment and blatant lies from Putin

And yes it is emotional. Maybe  after months of seeing civilians get killed, schools and civilian structures being targeted, war crimes and utter barbarity from the Russian military people do tend to get emotional 

This shouldn't surprise anyone 

[Chilloutman]

1 hour ago, Malcador said:

Been part of marketing to get aid for Ukraine to say if Ukraine falls somehow Russia will then attack NATO members...because some how mystically Article 5 won't work because NATO didn't defend a non-member.  Ergo, we must give them ATACMS, Arleigh Burkes, etc. Not sure the endpoint there as well.

Not sure where this is getting from but I think there was a lot of suggestions/threats from Russian about attacking NATO states, baltic ones to be precise

 

[Malcador]

4 minutes ago, Chilloutman said:

Not sure where this is getting from but I think there was a lot of suggestions/threats from Russian about attacking NATO states, baltic ones to be precise

Which would be even more insane than invading Ukraine as that's war with the US - gambling that NATO will fear nuclear war to the point the alliance fails in its primary purpose seems to have poor odds. 

https://news.err.ee/1608815692/edf-intelligence-chief-russia-still-has-long-term-offensive-capabilities

""We estimate that Russia had about 17 million rounds of ammunition before the war started, 10 million of which have been used up," he said. "At the end of the summer, their ammunition usage was very high - there were days when between 20,000 and 60,000 [artillery] rounds were being fired, which is a huge amount."

This guy is always pessimistic, but that was interesting to note

[xzar_monty]

10 minutes ago, Chilloutman said:

Not sure where this is getting from but I think there was a lot of suggestions/threats from Russian about attacking NATO states, baltic ones to be precise

Lithuania, especially.

There were some serious threats from the Russian foreign ministry on June 20, and Patrushev reinforced those threats in even stronger terms on June 21.

(Last year, in a private conversation, Putin demanded that Finland offer Russia guarantees concerning NATO, and this was the moment when Sauli Niinistö, the president, decided that enough was enough -- Russia has no business dictating other countries what to do. Russia was subsequently very threatening towards Finland about the NATO question. Everything has since then quietened down and Russia seems to have given up, but this of course is no guarantee of anything, nor is Finland a NATO member yet.)

Edited December 13, 2022 by xzar_monty

[Mamoulian War]

2 hours ago, Sarex said:

https://www.reuters.com/world/putin-russia-may-have-make-ukraine-deal-one-day-partners-cheated-past-2022-12-09/

I mean everyone knew this, but it's another thing to hear it from the horse's mouth...

Well, says the person, who did cheat on Ukraine in the first place when in 2014, he shat all over the Budapest treaty, where Russia agreed to be a guarantor of Ukrainian territorial integrity