Thoughts After Completing Latest Playthrough

[patronkus]

So I returned to the game after hearing about the CP, BPM and Enhanced UI Mods which improved quality of life and the overall experience after not touching it since release. I recently finished this playthrough and loved it but I had some strategy thouhts I'd like to cast into the In-Between. 

My party was all SC characters (didn't wanna MC because I know i'd get lost in the sauce of MCing) and this worked out well (probably helped by the BPM mod). My Watcher was a Helwalker Monk, I had a Mercenary Ascendant Cipher and for most of the playthrough I used Serafen and Vatnir (or Xoti). My 5th changed a lot, initially it was Ydwin who was going for a Gambit build but that underperformed IMO, switched to Pallegina and that was OK for the Exhortations and swapped her out to try Teheku, Fassina and some others.

SC Barb and Monk are dumb powerful as I am sure most people already know. Monk just wins and destroys everyone with a renewable resource which is highly desirable in POE 2.

Barb can recover resources however doesn't always need to due to features like Blood Thirst, Blood Lust and Barbaric Retalliation just pumping hard. I messed up for most of my playthrough though as I gave serafen Willbreaker to apply Body Blows and -Will to help the Cipher out but in hindsight I should've done Battleaxes for Bleeding Cut which is stupid powerful with HoF. I went Driving Roar initially which was good but swapped to Dazing Shout after making Serafen my main tank which still worked well. Even though Driving Roar has higher base damage Dazing Shout is a circle AOE meaning you'll probably hit more targets and get effective more damage.

Cipher was really the central focus of my party for most of the run, the idea was Ascend with Kitchen Stove, prolong it with Salvation of Time and pump Amplified Wave to kill foes. This was actually quite underwhelming, even though I gave the Cipher absolutely everything to do more damage (Harbinger robes, Ring of Prosperous Fortune, Kuara Prize etc) they were still outclassed by the Barb, Priest and Monk damage wise. I ended up switching the Ciphers focus to buffing with Brilliant and Robust and Debuffing with the numerous Cipher spells for afflictions. I was very focused on achieving the Brilliant Inspiration on as many of the party as possible, mainly the priest for SoT, but I think I tunnel visioned onto that and it was maybe overkill.

For most fights Brilliant, while nice, just isn't necessary when using a full party. Moreover giving Brilliant to classes like Paladin, Monk or Barbarian doesn't give them that much. Brilliant for a Barb gives an extra Barbaric Smash, Brilliant for a Priest gives an extra Symbol and these things are definitely not created equal. In hindsight, I probably should've just given out Brilliant to my casters, Robust to my Melees and then gotten into blaster or debuff mode. Also, while Brilliant is handy for extended fights, any character with high enough Arcana can continue being effective with scrolls of Plague of Insects or Gaze of the Adragan or whatever. 

Paladin SC just didn't really do much. Without Voidward Sacred Immolation is a really hard sell and even with the ring it didn't feel that impactful. Exalted Endurance though is incredibly powerful, the +1 Armor Rating is stupid good and the passive healing on top of Lay on Hands is so good. In hindsight I think I overvalued the Hardy inspiration for +2 AR and should've held onto the Zeal for Lay on Hands. My idea was use the Exhortation on everyone and recover the Zeal with Brilliant from the Cipher but the rate of recovery isn't fast enough and you run out and have nothing to do.

Rogue was pretty underwhelming. The idea of using Gambit to ensure criticals and get big damage just didn't work out consistenly enough to be strong. I might've played it wrong or mismanaged it but it didn't wow me.

I used Tekehu for a bit and he was OK. The idea was to lay down Chill Fog and Ninagauth Freezing Pillar as death fields which also debuff the party can run through freely. Chill Fog has horrible PEN so does no damage but the Blind is very good and Freezing Pillar does OK damage but nothing to write home about IMO. Tekehu was quite overshadowed by Vatnir and his Symbol of Rymrgand which blasted damage unbelievably hard.

After siding with the Huana Pallegina left and I took Fassina with me to Forgotten Sanctum. I ran her with the Caedabald Blackbow, Essential Phantom setup which was neat but not insane. The damage is mediocre but the intermittent Terrifies are super good. The duration is short though and IMO is overshadowed by Ryngrims Enervating Terror.

I tried out an Illusionist setup on Aloth, using Enervating Terror, Gaze of the Adragan, Confusion etc and that was really good. Being able to mass CC with party friendly AOEs is so strong. In contrast to Tekehu, who did mild damage and provided mild CC, Aloth just hard CCd entire fights with this setup. It also helped there are lots of Illusion PL improvements available though and Aloths base stats are much better than Tekehus.

 

In hindsight of my playstyle I think going for my next playthrough I am going to chill out on making sure everyone has certain inspirations. Most fights just don't require everyone to be Robust, Nimble, Brilliant etc and it's better on an action economy scale to not spent so much time spamming inspirations and just get to doing actual stuff abilities. I think next playthrough I'll mess around with some subclasses like Beguiler or Forbidden Fist but we shall see.

I don't think anything I've written here is new to anybody or novel in any way, just wanted to express these thoughts and see if anyone else has similar conclusions or experiences or advice.

[Boeroer]

Imo with an SC Paladin you need a Chanter with Many Lives Pass Bye in the party - or at least some other summons. Divine Retribution then turns the paladin into the class with the best resource restoration and all Exortations can be given to everybody with almost no casting time, you can use Brand Enemy on all enemies and you can also spam Flames of Devotion. For example I am using a SC Kind Wayfarer atm with dual pistols with all the good ranged ACC/reload gear. She just stands in the midst of my backline and spams (Shared) White Flames endlessly which allows her to use the healing version of Sacred Immolation (without loosing net health), too. She's at the same time healing everybody around her as well as dealing great single target dps with pistols and good AoE dmg around her with Immolation. It's like a trap for rushers. They can't win unless they disable her or take her out - which his not easy because she's a freakin Paladin with good defenses and resistances and all...

Also Pallegina with Vielo Vodorio is very good with Divine Retribution. The AoE of VV is much bigger than that of Shared Flames and White Flames. The -20% recovery time buff is short, but you can spam it all the time when summons die (if she has Divine Retribution). That can keep your whole party at -20% recovery while dishing out good damage. 

Also nice: if you have 2 SC paladins they both get +2 Zeal from the same dead summon. 

Raising an Animal Companions over and over again if you have enough Zeal is easy. The AC pays for itself basically.

Edited September 29, 2022 by Boeroer

[Elric Galad]

BPM Brilliant does not give back a symbol every 6s if you use the nerf package. It cycles regeneration of spells up to tier 3, 6, 9. First tick happens after 3s, so you have to wait for 15s for getting back a symbol.

Over 15s, it's 3 spells at random of level up to 3,6,9 Vs 3 non random ressources for martial classes. The gap isn't that big anymore and one need to use spell slot with caution to control the randomness. It's really a trade off between raw power (in favour of casters) Vs predictability (in favour of martials - you know for sure that you will get enough ressources to cast your Heart of Fury or 3 Driving Roar).

Chanters and even more Ciphers do get the shorter stick though. But that's fair cause they are already regenerating classes.

 

I've seen Gambit builds working nice on a Kaylon video.

But I'm using a SC Assassin right now and he's doing well by using... various abilities. His main focus is vanishing strike (disgusting with backstab, assassin passive and Ajamuut cloak) but I alternate with Gambit with a pair of blunderbusses when I want more Sustainability (more rolls, more crits, requires less accuracy over specialization). Dual standard blunderbusses is very nice to destroy one's deflection through Confounding Blind (not SC specific). BPM SC adds a couple of unique tools such as +1 guile through Great Soul, ressources regen through Wall of Flashing Steel and Concentration Removal (and long Frightened affliction) using Perplexing Sap.

So Gambit is nice but I think it's better not to focus on it for every fight.

Edited September 29, 2022 by Elric Galad

[NotDumbEnough]

IIRC Gambit does not interact with blunderbusses perfectly, I think the first pellet from each shot has to crit for you to get the refund. I think I've had situations where I've gotten, say, 5 crits from a single use of Gambit but only refunded 2 Guile.

[Elric Galad]

23 minutes ago, NotDumbEnough said:

IIRC Gambit does not interact with blunderbusses perfectly, I think the first pellet from each shot has to crit for you to get the refund. I think I've had situations where I've gotten, say, 5 crits from a single use of Gambit but only refunded 2 Guile.

That may explain why it seems to perform unperfectly (althought I usually get the refund).

The -10 Accuracy isn't great in this case.

And for mortars ? Do you need it to crit on main target ?

 

Edit : Gotcha. It's coded as "if first attack that doesn't Miss is a Crit, you win"

Miss -> See you next bullet
Graze -> Your 2 guiles are spent
Hit -> Your 2 guiles are spent
Crit -> Your 2 guiles are won back

Therefore, you can expect Blunderbusses to perform slightly better since Misses are quite forgiving.
Hit are often transformed due to Gambit Hit to Crit, but Graze and you loose.

Edited September 29, 2022 by Elric Galad

[NotDumbEnough]

I'm not sure whether or not blunderbusses are better than other weapons here. The -10 accuracy contributes to grazing, and a properly built rogue probably shouldn't be missing outright with Gambit in the first place on higher accuracy weapons. For ranged weapons in particular lots of weapons also have useful effects on crit like Thundercrack, Current's Rush etc. Better range is also always good. Note that you can also mix and match. If you have a long range weapon in your main hand and a blunderbuss in your offhand, you can perform full attacks with both weapons at the range of the main hand weapon, which lets you take the -range +damage enchantment on Xefa's blunderbuss with no downside.

[Elric Galad]

-10 contributes to grazing only if your accuracy is more than 25 point higher than enemy's defense. It happens but it would be optimistic to state it is always the case.

In other cases, you'll have 25% of "natural graze roll" anyway.

 

Anyway I will probably tweak it to fit the description with BPM. What is described above is quite unintuitive.

Also if anyone knows how stunning surge works exactly, I'll be happy.

Edited September 29, 2022 by Elric Galad

[masterty66]

I typically use my Ciphers for debuff more than damage. I've found that charms plus secret horrors tends to be my bread and butter. Charms are always powerful for obvious reasons, and secret horrors really helps enable other party members. I feel like I spend most of the early part of a fight with a Cipher getting up Borrowed Instinct, casting secret horrors or charm spells, and then if I have time build up some focus to do offensive powers. Not sure if it's the ideal way to play, but it works ok for me.

Haven't done SC Paladin. Pallegina is typically a Herald for me and she's exceptionally impactful with that setup. I know @Boeroerisn't the biggest fan of Heralds but imo the combination of heals and summons is quite impactful. The Ogres are quite useful early, and late game Animated Weapons are fantastic. My only complaint is her lack of engagement but as an off tank it's not so big a deal to me as long as I have Eder or someone who soaks up the majority of engagements. Beacon is of course nice as well especially if you time powerful abilities to go off after using it.

I use Aloth similarly to how you use him. I find myself focusing on loading up enemies with afflictions moreso than outright damage. I feel like enemies are so tanky that long lasting afflictions matter more to me than outright damage typically. There are some exceptions. Being able to quickly kill weaker enemies with missile salvo and such is huge on fights like Nemnok where there's tons of enemies and you need to thin the herd quickly. But otherwise I find afflictions more impactful to enable other party members.

[Constentin Lévine]

22 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

Also if anyone knows how stunning surge works exactly, I'll be happy.

"DurationType":"OneHitUse" on the se_eventoncrit that is linked to the:

se_addmortification, that have : "UseDurationTime","Duration":1,"MaxStackQuantity":0,"ApplicationBehavior":"DontApplyIfAlreadyApplied"

So you cant refound more than 2 mortifications.

 

The nice thing with Rogue is, when a combat is ending, if you use Shadow Step but dont consume the Paralyse Attack, at the next encounter you can start with it!

 

Edited September 30, 2022 by Constentin Lévine

[Elric Galad]

1 hour ago, Constentin Lévine said:

"DurationType":"OneHitUse" on the se_eventoncrit that is linked to the:

se_addmortification, that have : "UseDurationTime","Duration":1,"MaxStackQuantity":0,"ApplicationBehavior":"DontApplyIfAlreadyApplied"

So you cant refound more than 2 mortifications.

Indeed. But my main worry was that it could consume the "Stunning Surge" OneHit charge if the first pellet only grazes or hit.

But apparently, it does not... somehow. OneHitUse seems to apply to the whole attack.

Then the duration is indeed the key to prevent it from happening twice.

 

Funky thing is that if your second attack happens slower than the duration ellapses (with very Low INT and DEX), maybe you can get double refund.

Not sure if it is possible to make a build around this, but if someone can, that's you  

[Constentin Lévine]

59 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

Then the duration is indeed the key to prevent it from happening twice.

 

Funky thing is that if your second attack happens slower than the duration ellapses (with very Low INT and DEX), maybe you can get double refund.

This is what I'm thinking about since you ask!

[patronkus]

14 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

BPM Brilliant does not give back a symbol every 6s if you use the nerf package. It cycles regeneration of spells up to tier 3, 6, 9. First tick happens after 3s, so you have to wait for 15s for getting back a symbol.

Over 15s, it's 3 spells at random of level up to 3,6,9 Vs 3 non random ressources for martial classes. The gap isn't that big anymore and one need to use spell slot with caution to control the randomness. It's really a trade off between raw power (in favour of casters) Vs predictability (in favour of martials - you know for sure that you will get enough ressources to cast your Heart of Fury or 3 Driving Roar).

Chanters and even more Ciphers do get the shorter stick though. But that's fair cause they are already regenerating classes.

 

I've seen Gambit builds working nice on a Kaylon video.

But I'm using a SC Assassin right now and he's doing well by using... various abilities. His main focus is vanishing strike (disgusting with backstab, assassin passive and Ajamuut cloak) but I alternate with Gambit with a pair of blunderbusses when I want more Sustainability (more rolls, more crits, requires less accuracy over specialization). Dual standard blunderbusses is very nice to destroy one's deflection through Confounding Blind (not SC specific). BPM SC adds a couple of unique tools such as +1 guile through Great Soul, ressources regen through Wall of Flashing Steel and Concentration Removal (and long Frightened affliction) using Perplexing Sap.

So Gambit is nice but I think it's better not to focus on it for every fight.

I should've specified I am not using the nerf package as I was unsure of the OP combo's available in the game. I see now why you decided to make the nerfs you did in the BPM mod. I think even still nerfed most fights are beatable without requiring Brilliant. Maybe what I did not articulate well enough in my post is that I before thought Brilliant was a necessity (maybe from watching too many Solo Deadfire runs) and thus overvalued in when many fights would've been easier if I just had my cipher cast offensive spells instead of buffing for 4 casts with Brilliant.

 

My rogue build was actually inspired by the Kaylon video, not sure why it didn't work so well but maybe I just micro managed it poorly. 

[patronkus]

5 hours ago, masterty66 said:

I typically use my Ciphers for debuff more than damage. I've found that charms plus secret horrors tends to be my bread and butter. Charms are always powerful for obvious reasons, and secret horrors really helps enable other party members. I feel like I spend most of the early part of a fight with a Cipher getting up Borrowed Instinct, casting secret horrors or charm spells, and then if I have time build up some focus to do offensive powers. Not sure if it's the ideal way to play, but it works ok for me.

Haven't done SC Paladin. Pallegina is typically a Herald for me and she's exceptionally impactful with that setup. I know @Boeroerisn't the biggest fan of Heralds but imo the combination of heals and summons is quite impactful. The Ogres are quite useful early, and late game Animated Weapons are fantastic. My only complaint is her lack of engagement but as an off tank it's not so big a deal to me as long as I have Eder or someone who soaks up the majority of engagements. Beacon is of course nice as well especially if you time powerful abilities to go off after using it.

I use Aloth similarly to how you use him. I find myself focusing on loading up enemies with afflictions moreso than outright damage. I feel like enemies are so tanky that long lasting afflictions matter more to me than outright damage typically. There are some exceptions. Being able to quickly kill weaker enemies with missile salvo and such is huge on fights like Nemnok where there's tons of enemies and you need to thin the herd quickly. But otherwise I find afflictions more impactful to enable other party members.

I agree, I started up a new run with a Beguiler cipher and I think its the way to go over ascendant. You have constant debuffing of high tier afflictions (10 Focus for Blind, 20 for Paralyze/Immobilise, all of which refund Focus) and if you have an excess of Focus then you can start throwing out some Pain Blocks or Silent Screams. Has been working super well so far and I've stopped trying to crank damage out of the cipher like a Monk or Barbarian and let them help those 2 classes excel at dealing damage.

[masterty66]

2 hours ago, patronkus said:

I agree, I started up a new run with a Beguiler cipher and I think its the way to go over ascendant. You have constant debuffing of high tier afflictions (10 Focus for Blind, 20 for Paralyze/Immobilise, all of which refund Focus) and if you have an excess of Focus then you can start throwing out some Pain Blocks or Silent Screams. Has been working super well so far and I've stopped trying to crank damage out of the cipher like a Monk or Barbarian and let them help those 2 classes excel at dealing damage.

Agreed. That said I think Ascendant can be really cool with certain builds. I really want to try @Constentin Lévine's high dispersed tide build. That is one of the ones on my list to do. Right now I'm doing assassin/bloodmage though.

Edited September 30, 2022 by masterty66

[Elric Galad]

4 hours ago, patronkus said:

I should've specified I am not using the nerf package as I was unsure of the OP combo's available in the game. I see now why you decided to make the nerfs you did in the BPM mod. I think even still nerfed most fights are beatable without requiring Brilliant. Maybe what I did not articulate well enough in my post is that I before thought Brilliant was a necessity (maybe from watching too many Solo Deadfire runs) and thus overvalued in when many fights would've been easier if I just had my cipher cast offensive spells instead of buffing for 4 casts with Brilliant.

I don't think Brilliant is overvalued but it is indeed not that useful in most fights. Yes, you can use it to repeat your high tier spells, but that's about it, and I mostly find to too slow too. You're better spamming Disintigrate for such fights.

The point is Brilliant is close to impossible to replace in a satifsying manner in fights that requires it. Basically some Boss Fights and maybe Survivor challenges. With BPM, Potion of Elevation and Tier 9 Chanter His Heart Did Fill With the Light of the Dawn! could work.

Edited September 30, 2022 by Elric Galad

[masterty66]

I honestly didn't use Brilliant (at least intentionally) even once on my most recent run. I didn't do mega boss fights though, but for everything else, I didn't use it and I didn't miss it either. For me there's more than enough resources to win fights in the standard game. On long drawn out fights in SSS and so on I would just empower to get resources back.

Mega bosses are of course different though. I know those can be so long and so grindy that Brilliant can make a difference. I don't typically do them though. Have beaten a few before but usually aren't in the mood for them.

[patronkus]

1 hour ago, masterty66 said:

I honestly didn't use Brilliant (at least intentionally) even once on my most recent run. I didn't do mega boss fights though, but for everything else, I didn't use it and I didn't miss it either. For me there's more than enough resources to win fights in the standard game. On long drawn out fights in SSS and so on I would just empower to get resources back.

Mega bosses are of course different though. I know those can be so long and so grindy that Brilliant can make a difference. I don't typically do them though. Have beaten a few before but usually aren't in the mood for them.

Agree, even the Survivor SSS fights are doable without it, maybe just use some scrolls or potions to compensate. Megabosses are totally different story. I avoid the megabosses as they are just not fun to fight legitimately and boring if cheesed.