Pathfinder Wrath of the Righteous, Part 4

[Gromnir]

19 minutes ago, uuuhhii said:

did all the act 5 relic work now

it used to be only one pick up at act 4 are actually working

the major issue were that a few o' the act v relics would not appear in inventory and could not be upgraded... although curious, it were often possible to upgrade both the act iv and act v zaori's pin. 

as o' our most recent runs, we had no issue aquiring and upgrading all act v relics.

HA! Good Fun!

[majestic]

Minor tip, because it is not that intuitive either: Don't dismiss weapons with good secondary effects just because they have a low enhancement bonus. There's a dagger +2 that gives two extra attacks on a full round attack, there's a +2 club that prevents you from becoming flat footed, and a +2 battle axe with a crit range of 18-20. You can buff the enhancement bonus of weapons, and bypassing DR isn't an issue beyond the very early game either, but you cannot teach a generic +5 weapon any new tricks.

A dagger with an additional attack is quite painful when playing a character having Sneak Attacks and/or Elemental Barrage, and that axe? That axe removes the requirement to take Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Fauchards if the primary thing you're going for is their increase crit range. Which it usually is. Plus it comes much earlier than the go-to Fauchard, which is available in Act IV, and has a higher critical hit multiplier.

Spoiler

Grave Singer is what you make from the Unholy Symbol of Rovagug.

 

Edited September 7, 2022 by majestic

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

12 minutes ago, majestic said:

That axe removes the requirement to take Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Fauchards if the primary thing you're going for is their increase crit range

Scimitars and Falchions already exist for that, the main draw for Fauchards is the crit range with reach which I don't think any other weapon has.

Your broader point is correct though, do not sleep on unique or powerful effects because of a lower enhancement bonus. The corollary I'd add is that weapons with a save effect are much less useful than they appear and should be judged as subpar, especially on higher difficulties.

[Gromnir]

1 minute ago, majestic said:

 

  Hide contents

Grave Singer is what you make from the Unholy Symbol of Rovagug.

 

the axe we mentioned earlier in this thread, but we identified it 'cause @Gorthwere considering a switch to great axe. grave singer, with the 18-20 crit range, comes in three flavours: hand axe (small,) battle axe (medium,) and great axe (large.) 

there is a small annoyance factor related to the other benefit o' grave singer. once per encounter, grave singer will automatically free the wielder from movement impairing effects, including (but not limited to) such stuff as paralysis, petrification and stun. the cost for such freedom is the weapon wielder takes gave singer's damage, but not with all kinda enhancements. am not 100% certain what were the calculation, but our dual wielding aeon using the hand axe would ordinarily get hit for +40 damage.

the thing is, even if you are immune or inoculated as it were to whatever is the movement impairing effect targeting grave singer's wielder, you nevertheless take the weapon damage hit. 

but yeah, the 18-20 crit range is a massive benefit and is why so many munchkin dual wielders is choosing kukris or scimitars as their weapons o' choice. is two hand axes in the game which provide 18-20, although one is available only very late in the game. we thought it would be fun to do not kukri. also, is a novel series from the 80s called the pelbar cycle, which nobody has ever hear o' but we enjoyed much. have frequent played a shumai axeman character in crpgs and 'course absolute nobody knows what am referencing. 

amusing, greybor's hand axe, crushing cold, were a nice option for much o' the game, but we had to be concerned with friendly fire. am not certain if has been fixed, but the cone o' cold effect o' the hand axe were not as per an 11th level wizard as described, but rather based on the wielder's level, so we got up to the full 15d6 benefits/pain when triggered.

HA! Good Fun!

[InsaneCommander]

On 9/6/2022 at 12:11 PM, Gromnir said:

 

@InsaneCommander is going azata, yes? unless has been nerfed, you eventual get access to a crusade spell which heals your army and damages foes at the end o' a turn. with a decent mage, this power will wipe screens o' foes. 

further rando advice:

build a teleportation circle in drezen asap.

alchemist laboratories may be built multiple times and if you go with a mage general, he/she will be doing great individual damage and healing. the general needs energy to do so... also look for crusade projects which potential increase general power. energy allows your general to cast spells and take actions more often. increase power boosts the damage o' your offensive abilities as well as making your heals more effective.

in act iii you are gonna need master of maneuver I and II at the very least. don't skip on those general abilities when they become available.

Thanks for the help. Unfortunately, I already had a Ranger general with a few levels by the time you mentioned the advantage of the Mage general a few pages back. I did notice the importance of Master of Maneuver right away and got two levels still in act II. The last time I leveled my general, I got the option to get Scorching Ray but I already had a similar fire spell (Burning Liquid) that causes the same damage. The only difference was that the spell I got was considered a "Siege Ability". Not sure if they are equivalent.

 

I visited the suspicious Kobold as you suggested and got some pretty interesting letters. Now, where is Hulrun when you need him? Yes, I know it is a Crusader Project and I already started it, but I wish I could give them to the Inquisitor.

 

[majestic]

1 minute ago, InsaneCommander said:

Not sure if they are equivalent.

Not really, Scorching Ray you can cast every turn as long as you have energy. Another thing that makes little sense at a first glance, in the battles, try to spread your damage around. Damaged units deal less damage, and as such, for instance, having three at full power and one dead means you take more damage than facing all four at reduced strength. The exception is of course units that do something really dangerous or are powerful enough to one-shot yours.

You can heal up your armies as long as at least one of them survives - and you have a healing ability.

[InsaneCommander]

4 minutes ago, majestic said:

Not really, Scorching Ray you can cast every turn as long as you have energy. Another thing that makes little sense at a first glance, in the battles, try to spread your damage around. Damaged units deal less damage, and as such, for instance, having three at full power and one dead means you take more damage than facing all four at reduced strength. The exception is of course units that do something really dangerous or are powerful enough to one-shot yours.

You can heal up your armies as long as at least one of them survives - and you have a healing ability.

Good to know. However, I usually use the healing spell every turn after the first.

[Gromnir]

9 minutes ago, InsaneCommander said:

Thanks for the help. Unfortunately, I already had a Ranger general with a few levels by the time you mentioned the advantage of the Mage general a few pages back. I did notice the importance of Master of Maneuver right away and got two levels still in act II. The last time I leveled my general, I got the option to get Scorching Ray but I already had a similar fire spell (Burning Liquid) that causes the same damage. The only difference was that the spell I got was considered a "Siege Ability". Not sure if they are equivalent.

 

I visited the suspicious Kobold as you suggested and got some pretty interesting letters. Now, where is Hulrun when you need him? Yes, I know it is a Crusader Project and I already started it, but I wish I could give them to the Inquisitor.

 

the best/worst method for gauging the relative strength o' mage generals is to fight the demon army near greengates in act iii, the one with the glabrezu general. make certain to save before you engage the enemy, 'cause is likely you decide to come back at a later time to deal with that obstacle.

HA! Good Fun!

[Gorth]

10 hours ago, Gromnir said:

we mentioned to @Gorth how is literal only two endgame greatswords, and both is available via vendors... and one o' the vendors is only a possibility if you do a quest a certain way.

Following advice, I changed to using greataxes for now. I can always (hopefully) switch back to greatsword later. Sadly my avatar no longer matches the portrait picture. I wonder if there is a way to use some of all those IWD1+2 portrait pictures (absolutely loved those). I'll have a to check what's required. I'm sure I saw a Portrait folder somewhere in the installation directory. Gave Finnean to Sosiel for now, as it was definitely an upgrade to his old, non enchanted glaive.

 

Edit: It looks like most of my bonus damage was coming from sneak attacks anyway, rather than crits. I may have a word with Destna and Calistria, to see if either of them offers a better deal on RNG outcomes

 

Edit2: I'm tempted to create a "branch" save, just to try out how my barbarian looks with that scythe I've been hanging on to for a long time. Probably either very comical or very cool. Maybe both. Probably something I'll keep in mind for a subsequent run (looking at the Lich path)

[Gromnir]

1 hour ago, Gorth said:

Following advice, I changed to using greataxes for now.

hey, don't blame Gromnir. greataxe options ain't noteworthy better than greatswords, but the grave singer crit range boost is a big deal for a trickster character, so is a good option and acquiring is not dependent on doing a quest correct to get. don't let the +2 scare you away, 'cause with greater magic weapon applied, you are always gonna be wielding an effective +5 weapon. 

am not convinced exotic is an efficient use o' feats, but there is a background which provides scythe proficiency and there is multiple excellent scythes in wotr. is not a bad choice even if the crit threat range is not ideal.

ordinarily, we go falchion for 2h weapons, and bardiche if we want a reach weapon, but is a couple fantastic fauchards and they is available in act iii and act v respective, so along with finnean, you always got an excellent fauchard... if you believe the feat cost is economic.

am having no idea what gear is available in the new dlc. if good stuff is available in the act iii accessible portions o' the dlc, our advice could change.

in any event, finnean will always be useful and will be your go-to weapon for a few foes. if you want greataxes, make certain you acquire grave singer. you should already possess the unholy symbol o' rovagug-- is a reward for a crusade battle in act ii. when the crusade decree becomes available, be sure to upgrade it appropriate.

HA! Good Fun!

 

Edited September 8, 2022 by Gromnir

[InsaneCommander]

I met with the three councils and the advisors. It looked like I spent hours talking with them, but maybe it was just me tired late at night. I don't even remember what I wanted to do back on Drezen.

Anyway, I chose to invite a priest instead of having a parade for the Queen, which made the Kitsune call the meeting tense. Not sure what she was talking about.

Daeran was the funniest, he wanted to solve everything with bribes.

Me: “Daeran, what are you doing on this council?”

Daeran: “Mostly, I’m just waiting for it to end.”

“Why bother solving problems yourself when you can push them off on someone you pay?”

[ShadySands]

I just wanted to add that it's sometimes best to put off the council stuff until you have all the companions if you don't already. That way you have all the advisors and all the options available to you because even if you don't care about the mechanical stuff there's still dialogue to miss.

Spoiler

Woljif, Arue, and Greybor are the three you can get in chapter 3. Greybor and Woljif are always in chapter 3 but it's possible to get Arue in Drezen in chapter 2.

 

[majestic]

On 9/8/2022 at 12:09 AM, KP From Another World said:

Scimitars and Falchions already exist for that, the main draw for Fauchards is the crit range with reach which I don't think any other weapon has.

That's true, and it is a big draw (reduces the inevitable overkill by more easily having something else in range to hit once an enemy dies), but whether reach is worth a feat is up for debate - unless you play something that doesn't require a feat, like Sword Saint. Could make a Trickster Sword Saint with Fauchards and Arcana 3 and then reload until you get something really good on the Bearer of Sorrow, but that is a bit of an edge case and requires meta knowledge and the will to rush Mythic levels in Act IV.

It's certainly not wrong to go with Fauchards on melee focused characters.

[Gromnir]

26 minutes ago, majestic said:

 

It's certainly not wrong to go with Fauchards on melee focused characters.

am thinking fauchards is an excellent choice, but to get the most mileage you need a melee focused party wherein near everybody has seize the moment and ever ready and am not certain how many people play that way. got an enlarged fauchard wielder who is  built to be maximizing attacks o' opportunities on crits while also generating many crits while recognizing how a reach weapon is able to cover a substantial amount o' real estate, thus functional triggering even more attacks o' opportunity for a melee focused party, and the fauchard is worth the feat tax.

how much better is the fauchard than a bardiche if you need reach or better if you go with falchion and sacrifice reach? am suspecting it depends on your class and how many "free" feats you receive, and what feat you must sacrifice to get exotic. some kinda build which combines gendarme or fighter where you is literal at level fifteen and recognizing your last few feat choices won't make much difference at all? 'course even then is a whole lotta gameplay before you reach fifteen and being able to get outflank or some other necessary feat as early as possible does make a difference for many players. 

as we noted, we played our dual wielding aeon with handaxes and for much o' the game we only had grave singer with the high crit range. hardly felt underpowered wielding crushing cold. yeah, with kukris or simitars we coulda' been objective more effective, proc'ing elemental barrage more often and generating more crits, but even doing boss battles on unfair, we never felt overwhelmed. the dual wielding aeon is a dispelling buzzsaw btw. most bosses is far less challenging when a high initiative aeon removes near all their buffs in an opening attack.

am gonna admit that there is a few weapon categories which is sooper strongk, but which nevertheless kinda bore us 'cause there is literal only a couple options available for the weapon type and so the weapon ends up defining the character instead o' the reverse. players with teh meta knowledge build their crpg character to best fit the weapon they will acquire the last 1/3 o' the game? doing so is not a wrong way to play games such as wotr but it is nevertheless unfortunate how in spite o' the many wotr choices available, wotr parties become more and more similar as the folks who know all the rules is exploiting in the same/similar ways, particular as you move the difficulty slider to the right. 

fauchards is a good choice. hand axes and warhammers is bad. have nevertheless built hand axe and warhammer characters which is quite capable o' reducing unfair bosses to formless puddles o' goo in less than three rounds. 

...

that said, and in spite o' our soap box material, if am having gone through the effort to build a melee trickster character, chances are am using a high crit-range weapon, 'cause feels like self gimping to do otherwise. doesn't need be fauchard, but fauchard will be a serious contender... 'cause. tell us am being at least a bit hypocritical and we don't have a genuine rejoinder.

*shrug*

HA! Good Fun!

[InsaneCommander]

4 hours ago, ShadySands said:

I just wanted to add that it's sometimes best to put off the council stuff until you have all the companions if you don't already. That way you have all the advisors and all the options available to you because even if you don't care about the mechanical stuff there's still dialogue to miss.

  Reveal hidden contents

Woljif, Arue, and Greybor are the three you can get in chapter 3. Greybor and Woljif are always in chapter 3 but it's possible to get Arue in Drezen in chapter 2.

 

Then I'll have to reload. One of the councils did have less people. I don't want to miss these dialogues. Thanks for letting me know.

Now, where is that scoundrel?

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

6 minutes ago, InsaneCommander said:

Then I'll have to reload. One of the councils did have less people. I don't want to miss these dialogues. Thanks for letting me know.

Now, where is that scoundrel?

If we're talking about the thief, he's tied to a couple of (not so) random encounters thay trigger in specific places. For the other scoundrel, you have to pay him some cash or finish his initial quest. The cash recruits him and the quest gets him to stay.

Edited September 9, 2022 by KP From Another World

[InsaneCommander]

3 minutes ago, KP From Another World said:

If we're talking about the thief, he's tied to a couple of (not so) random encounters thay trigger in specific places. For the other scoundrel, you have to pay him some cash or finish his initial quest. The cash recruits him and the quest gets him to stay.

I was talking about the thief. I checked where to find him, I already started the sequence to have him back. The other one is apparently already recruited, but I'll do his quest now.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

3 hours ago, majestic said:

That's true, and it is a big draw (reduces the inevitable overkill by more easily having something else in range to hit once an enemy dies), but whether reach is worth a feat is up for debate - unless you play something that doesn't require a feat, like Sword Saint. Could make a Trickster Sword Saint with Fauchards and Arcana 3 and then reload until you get something really good on the Bearer of Sorrow, but that is a bit of an edge case and requires meta knowledge and the will to rush Mythic levels in Act IV.

It's certainly not wrong to go with Fauchards on melee focused characters.

Well there are weapons with reach and 19-20 or x3 critical, so aktucally it's about the combo of reach and crit range. In general I think that ewp is a sink to anyone who isn't already getting a lot of feats, and even in those cases there's usually something more effective to grab early to mid game, so most martials will prefer just using a glaive or halberd (or whatever other reach weapons with 19-20 or x3 there are) instead of blowing a precious resource. Fauchards and Falcatas are probably the best ewp choice though, because they do bring unique combinations that can't be found elsewhere.

Of course all of this goes out the window when you consider itemization of the game itself, because if the best weapon a type has some lame effect then it doesn't matter what the base stats of a weapon are. And because weapon with less impressive base stats can end up with getting a 18-20 crit range or some other crazy ability.

[InsaneCommander]

I found the thief.

Spoiler

He was hanging out with the dumbest people on Golarion:

Even the the childish Aivu managed to fool them.

I tried the Mastodon summon and it was quite the surprise,much bigger than the baby you can get as an animal companion.

Also started leveling my second general, Setsuna. He already has 2 levels of Master of Maneuver, and Cure Wounds.

 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Played around with builds yesterday, tried to see if the Arcane Rider could make a spell combat full attack with mounted skirmisher* but the Horse kept killing stuff before the rider. Eventually Catastrophe missed a bite and it looks like spell combat does indeed work like that.

*Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this is a nerf from a mod as the default game behavior lets riders make full attacks with a move by default.

[InsaneCommander]

My expedition with Greybor to do his quest was a disaster.

 

Spoiler

We survived being ambushed by the Dragon, however the corruption from the Abyss was high and I kept having dangerous random encounters. Bismuth and Seelah’s horse died, got Death’s Door and I can’t cast Greater Restoration or pay for it.

Since I can’t rest to remove the corruption without triggering the Council event, I decided to reload to before I started the council projects. I'll have to revisit two or three locations and do a few Crusade Battles, but I don’t mind it in order to get more companions recruited for the council.

 

Edited September 10, 2022 by InsaneCommander

[majestic]

1 hour ago, InsaneCommander said:

My expedition with Greybor to do his quest was a disaster.

Welcome to the game proper, it's only going to get worse from now on.

Depending on your party setup and skill levels, you might be looking at reloading a certain book event prior to the final part of the quest too. Like, a couple of times.

Spoiler

Do try to get that done properly. You really don't want to fight the dragon head on with a party damaged by the event. Finishing the book event gives you time to buff and for an ambush, provided you get through several stealth checks.

 

[InsaneCommander]

1 hour ago, majestic said:

Welcome to the game proper, it's only going to get worse from now on.

Depending on your party setup and skill levels, you might be looking at reloading a certain book event prior to the final part of the quest too. Like, a couple of times.

  Hide contents

Do try to get that done properly. You really don't want to fight the dragon head on with a party damaged by the event. Finishing the book event gives you time to buff and for an ambush, provided you get through several stealth checks.

 

Thanks for the advice. I'll make sure to be prepared for those checks.

I replayed most of what I had done before. Still have to find the thief. This time I used time more effective and did more battles with Setsuna. He'll take over as main general.

I also visited the Shrine of Sacrilege.

Spoiler

Grease and Dazzling Display worked wonderfully against the two Gabrezus and the Gormandizer. I stole all the tablets in the chest. I imagine they are for Nenio's quest.

 

[Gorth]

In act iii for now. Managed to get rid of a very obnoxious demon army somewhere west of Drezen. Bloody thing kept one shotting my units, one after the other

Used some pre-battle buff (elemental resistance iirc, although not 100% sure about that one). Changed tactics from trying to survive the fight to just kill the enemy army dead before my own troops got all wiped out. I.e. don't try to heal through it or place nice tactics. Offensive wizard spells and just ganging up on units. My shield bearers with defensive mode activated actually survived 3 rounds this time, buying a few more rounds for my wizard general and my hell knights etc. to win the fight. In the end, the losses were mostly expendable/easy to replace units. 

Went to a place named something along the lines of where the road meets a bend in the  river or some such. Entered the cave, expected a nice little dungeon romp, just to realize I am now trapped in the DLC with no way back

My party was completely not prepared for that, I might just go back to the 3rd autosave or so, made upon entering the cave. I cleared the first room out of many, but corruption has started to eat away at my party because I hadn't been resting in a safe place for quite a while before entering. Yes... bad planning, but I didn't intend the cave to take many days to complete  

[Gromnir]

21 hours ago, InsaneCommander said:

I imagine they are for Nenio's quest.

a reasonable conclusion. unfortunately, is an owlcat game, so reasonable is never a reliable guide.

but yeah, they should be for nenio's quest.

as to the dragon, our recollection is you got a thug build. intimidation may make a big difference when fighting the dragon as intimidation ignores the lizard's spell resistance

at this point am thinking you got the signet o' vespertilio, the oppressor's gloves and the moss pottage soup camp recipe. combined, those is gonna boost your intimidation check by 10 even before you cast any skill enhancing spells. hopeful you took the intimidating presence feat. if so, you may boost charisma and strength to improve your intimidation modifier.

am not certain where you are in your azata progression, so no spoilers, but azata provides a few long-lasting buffs via resting and spells. 

gonna admit, the freaking vegetables in the dragon lair were for us a more difficult challenge than the lizard, but have always been able to start the fight with what amounts to an ambush and a healthy party with full buffs, so no doubt that makes a difference as well.

HA! Good Fun!

ps unrelated, but am noticing guarded hearth is no longer providing a sacred bonus. is a bit o' a nerf, but it does make a few other builds more attractive, particular the judge inquisitor. judgements provide sacred bonuses, but guarded hearth near always provided a more significant boost. the judge ability to share sacred bonuses which ain't effective replaced by guarded hearth during boss battles is worth a looksee. if we ever decide to play a paladin, we might consider giving seelah 16 levels o' judge. with stern gaze she would make an excellent intimidator and we could have her select the

animal domain so she acquires a critter companion. from a rp pov, makes more sense to try and have lann or regill choose judge, but regill can't get sixteen levels o' judge, so is likely a non-starter. lann however...

7 hours ago, Gorth said:

In act iii for now. Managed to get rid of a very obnoxious demon army somewhere west of Drezen. Bloody thing kept one shotting my units, one after the other

am suspecting you met the greengates glabrezu mage general and his lightning strikes. mage generals is far less fun when is the enemy who uses 'em. arguable the best option is to skip that battle until you are a bit more powerful 'cause the relative army strength number is extreme misleading, no? might have changed, but the glabrezu and his army were considered a 6 rank foe... which had us feeling a bit shocked during our introductory encounter as our precious stacks o' marksmen were vaporized with a couple lighting strikes.

not fun at all, but the unexpected pain does drive home just how effective is mage generals, eh?

pps (late edit) for funsies we created a judge merc and gave'em an elk mount-- were testing multiple different features at once. downside is the elk were only getting it's gore attack (no hooves) and no free trip neither. on the positive side, the judge sharing o' the sacred bonus works with both the paladin's mark of justice and guarded hearth cleric domain, so is likely a judge party member becomes more useful on higher difficulty runs for parties doing physical attacks as 'posed to focusing on dc exploits. kinda disappointed 'bout the elk though. the 

Edited September 11, 2022 by Gromnir