Ranking the Class Tiers - A difficult task

[NotDumbEnough]

Personally I mostly see multiclassing as productive when (and only when) the two halves have a sum of greater than simply two half-characters put together. For example, a Streetfighter/Soulblade will get a lot of use out of Soul Annihilation, and is completely unique from how you might play either a single class Streetfighter or Soulblade. A Monk/Druid on the other hand is probably not a great multiclass outside of using Helwalker to power up your spells, but even then is it worth giving up Great Maelstrom from an SC druid? Probably not.

[Constentin Lévine]

9 minutes ago, NotDumbEnough said:

For example, a Streetfighter/Soulblade will get a lot of use out of Soul Annihilation

My point for that is if you focalise your character around one ability that you want optimize (I do that really often), multiclasse is generally better because that give an enhancement that other party member cant offer. But in this case, the question is different : it is about the better use of this ability, like for Soul annihilation, Spirit Presence, Leap.. I mention this last because it is available with item, like a small third multiclasse (if you are focus on abilities instead of the general aspect of the classes, the "colorimetry"). Great maelstrom is available with scroll, MC Druid Monk can potentially make a better use of this spell than a SC Druid , but it is about one spell, not general aspect.

I mean multiclasse a debonnaire with a cipher or a chanter is exactely the focus and synergy around one ability (the crit conversion). This is why it is difficult to "Ranking" I think

[Elric Galad]

I think the 2 main qualities of MC are :

- Better Passive / Self Buffs because you pick the best ones from 2 trees and I don't think Tier 8 and 9 make up for this. Pal Aura, Chanter chants, Fighter modals and Monk whatever... It works even without synergies, especially when it adds up to party strength.

- More ressources. This is striking with Martials. 11 ressources vs 9+9 for MC. That is significant only because ressource limit is a factor. Classic casters have usually enough spells for an encounter, martials have to save them a bit more. 

 

I think this is the contrary to what previously stated : SC tend to be better at performing a couple of stuff, while MC tend to be more well rounded. Passive and ability to perform longer always work in the background in favour of MC.

SC Druid is better at launching one big Maelstrom while Helwalker/Druid is going to be better at almost everything else. That said Maelstrom still often worths it ; lifegiver/Helwalker might be better though because these twins are sooooo convenient for Lifegiver, etc... Trade off, trade off... Both are very good anyway.

[Boeroer]

But that's still disregarding the fact that SCs gain access to impactful, higher tier abilities a lot earlier. Since the game is about progress from lvl 1 to 20 and not just a snapshot of a finished lvl-20 char this is important imo. 

Again the Psion/Troub example: A SC Psion gets Puppet Master a lot earlier than a Psion/Troubadour. And Puppet Master can be a game changer if I can access it early. 

Same as Devotions otF with an SC Priest compared to MC Priest/whatever. 

There are of course character combos that are absolutely great as multiclasses and SC chars that aren't great at all. But all those different aspects makes a generalized ranking kind of impossible imo.  

It's more easy to do a well-informed "my favorite classes" ranking imo that doesn't try to be super objective in the first place but still can show some interesting and important viewpoints and arguments. 

Edited January 1, 2022 by Boeroer

[NotDumbEnough]

Even if we're comparing high level characters, the high tier abilities for spellcasters especially are bonkers. Currently I can do a Wall of Many Colors (Trickster, me) + Call of Rymrgand (Xoti) + Great Maelstrom (Tekehu) + Wall of Many Colors #2 (Aloth) combo from stealth, and it isn't hard to sync it so that all these abilities drop at the same time. This instantly annihilates 90% of encounters, and is pretty much exclusive to single class characters.

[masterty66]

12 hours ago, Boeroer said:

But that's still disregarding the fact that SCs gain access to impactful, higher tier abilities a lot earlier. Since the game is about progress from lvl 1 to 20 and not just a snapshot of a finished lvl-20 char this is important imo. 

This is extremely important imo and a factor that many people overlook when designing/playing builds. There is a huge chunk of the game that you play before being level 20 and before being geared out and if you struggle during that period of gameplay that can be frustrating. 

[Elric Galad]

While I agree with Boeroer point, it must be noticed that MC starts out basically strictly superior as SC, having twice ressource pool, class and subclasses intrinsic passive at lvl 1. So they are usually much better at this point too. Some gamechanging abilities sometimes give a distinct edge to sc for portions of the levels such as Ancestor's Memory between lvl 13 and 16 or Unbending between lvl 9 and 13.

[masterty66]

I wonder what everyones sense of the difficulty curve is on potd/upscaled. For me, the game starts off challenging and mostly stays that way until I finish Poko Kohara. By that point I have done Neketaka, some bounties/side quests, and Poko Kohara, and from then on I actually find it pretty easy up until I start the DLCs. Beast of Winter is the easiest (but still hard at times, Neriscylas and those damned burning archers), SSS can be a right pain in the arse at times, and Forgotten Sanctum has some very challenging stuff. I actually think the hardest fight I ever had in this game was fighting those Vithrack in FS tunnels, but mostly because I had Galawain enabled and all of those spiders in that one big Vithrack set piece fight rolled exalted. That took me many tries to beat for me.

Megabosses are a different matter entirely but I haven't really bothered much with those. I beat Belranga once but I more or less don't want to deal with them usually. 

 

[Not So Clever Hound]

51 minutes ago, masterty66 said:

I wonder what everyones sense of the difficulty curve is on potd/upscaled. For me, the game starts off challenging and mostly stays that way until I finish Poko Kohara. By that point I have done Neketaka, some bounties/side quests, and Poko Kohara, and from then on I actually find it pretty easy up until I start the DLCs. Beast of Winter is the easiest (but still hard at times, Neriscylas and those damned burning archers), SSS can be a right pain in the arse at times, and Forgotten Sanctum has some very challenging stuff. I actually think the hardest fight I ever had in this game was fighting those Vithrack in FS tunnels, but mostly because I had Galawain enabled and all of those spiders in that one big Vithrack set piece fight rolled exalted. That took me many tries to beat for me.

Megabosses are a different matter entirely but I haven't really bothered much with those. I beat Belranga once but I more or less don't want to deal with them usually. 

You pretty much summed it up IMO. Before actually going into the DLC maps, Nemnok and Splintered Reef can offer some challenge if you're not fully built-up yet.

SSS is meant to offer different encounter configurations stretched to the extreme to challenge different party types, so it makes sense that with the same party comp you will be challenged more or less by certain encounter types or certain paths (Seeker's Path, Beasts of the Slayer, Survivor's Stand).

FS is just hard because enemies are tough, have access to all the good Tier8-9 stuff and get additional bonuses/inspirations on top.

I think we all have our techniques but personally when I think about a solo build, I often try to play it in my head vs. upscaled Trial of the Naga, Splintered Reef entrance and Nemnok. Can't run away, can't hide... usually a good measure of whether I have something worthy of more consideration or not.

Agree that megabosses are different. Personally I usually avoid them or cheese them for the stones.

Edited January 4, 2022 by Not So Clever Hound

[Haplok]

A bit late to the topic.

But also a little bummed by no mention of Assassin as MC - particularly for casters. But can be also great fun on weapon switching Black Jackets and such.

[Boeroer]

Just today I thought about how an Assassin/Wizard with a well-timed Miasma from invisibility/stealth makes enemies' defenses collapse so nicely. It makes fighting overleveled enemies so much easier.