Suggestion: Make a pure turn-based combat RPG

[Spook]

However neither sales record of those games I would consider worth Obsidians time. Not with the overheads in Calif. Of course its Feargus you have to convince not me.

Which might be just why we continue the discussion with you. It is not like we think that you are going to change your view now.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Give me an example of a squad based combat computer game that meets your sales expectations. Commandos? Fallout Tactics? Nope. I'm guessing here, but the king of that genre is probably X-com. (BEFORE it went real-time).

Why ? Those are not RPG's

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

So it shouldnt be too much of stretch for you to appreciate that other people can find TB RPG's equally boring ?

That was an example of an extremely poorly implemented TB game- as in not representative of the style- and it still sold decently.

Why ? And which one are you refering to ? The PS2 version or the newer GBA Advance version ?

 

What particular aspects of the game made it boring ?

[Revolver]

Give me an example of a squad based combat computer game that meets your sales expectations.  Commandos? Fallout Tactics? Nope.  I'm guessing here, but the king of that genre is probably X-com. (BEFORE it went real-time).

Why ? Those are not RPG's

Because you brought them up as examples!

 

(Leaving the comp- will continue this with you tomorrow)

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Which might be just why we continue the discussion with you. It is not like we think that you are going to change your view now.

Depends what your trying to convince me of.

 

I'm in the office today so It's not like I have anything better to do. But by finding out what particular aspects of something are "boring" we might actually find out something interesting.

 

Dont you find it very interesting that the Japanese style TB games sell so well. Where as the more traditional ones, well.. Dont.

 

If that 24,000 figure for Europe is accurate then it is a shock I would have expected SS to do better than that, at least in the 50-60 bracket.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Give me an example of a squad based combat computer game that meets your sales expectations.

[Spook]

Realy don't know how the japanese TB games sells, since I don't generally don't like the anime style characters in games (don't mind them in comics though, not that we have that many of those here in Sweden). But sure it is interesting that they sell.

 

Might be a differnt tradition in gaming styles, or just that we don't get that many good TB here at all so they can't get a new market here. Who knows.

[Revolver]

It's not the next day, but oh well...

Actually those are your examples not mine....

Sure, I brought those two games up in the first place, but my question was aimed at countering this:

Most people I've had contact with on various message boards (not like its a huge number) say that Silent Storm is amazing. Likewise they say JA2 is amazing.

 

However neither sales record of those games I would consider worth Obsidians time. Not with the overheads in Calif. Of course its Feargus you have to convince not me.

You bring up sales records, and I was simply asking you to put things in perspective.

---

Regarding FF Tactics- it was a Playstation 2 version, but I'm not sure about the specific one. I played one battle- though I only controlled one character, I had to wait an eternity for my turn, as the NPCs not only took a year to decide what to do (menu navigation and everything), the attack animations were boring and time consuming. Plus everything was on a damn bland rectangular grid. And finally, everyone was a cartoony midget. In Fallout, where, unless you were attacking an entire town, there was never waiting around, the NPCs attacked unhesitantly, the animations were either quick or sadistically amusing, and the great combat feedback and taunts kept me interested throughout.

[Hell Kitty]

I've only played a demo of Fallout, and I found the combat in it pretty dull. When I've played games like JA2 and SS, anything else is quite a step down.

[chaosprism]

IN the end turn based is akin to playing a board game, if you like that style of thing you'll like it.

 

I never liked the non-interactivity of FF combat ( though I havent seen any of them past VIII)

 

 

For one, you don't have the concept of a sequence in real time - even with a pause. That means you can't do all those fun things like simulate surprise with an attack order, give advantages to weaker but more dexterous or reflex oriented characters, and so on. Real time doesn't have an order of attack, everyone attacks at one time. 

Surprise can be done in real time, just because it hasnt been implemented yet doesnt mean it cant be done.. surprise is just a side or certain characters delaying what they would normally do because they're "suprised"

 

A non-dextrous character (ie bad initiative) can also have his attack delayed attack order wise, all those things can take place in real time without you even noticing them.

 

 

In turn based, though, since there's a combat sequence(i.e. order of attacks), the archer's lightning quick attributes allow him to fire his arrow in his turn and the nasty wizard drops to the floor like a cheap lawn chair.

 

This can be easily implemented you just run the round forward in time frames.. normally D&D has initiative + roll to determine the order of events which is exactly how the round can be played out.

 

 

Another big problem with real time that turn based never has a problem with is attack animation speed. In turn based, you can concievably do any number of actions you're allowed to do in your turn. With real time with pause, the maximum number is the frames per second of animations of cycle of the amount of actions. Yeah, okay, in smaller words, that means that if swinging a sword takes one second, and the round is six seconds long, you can only have six swings of that sword in that time.

Special abilities are quite obviously special cases.. cleave in its very name literally means you swing and in ONE swing you slice through all 6 goblins with much spinning and dancing with your weapon there is really no consquence to time if its programmed right.

 

 

Saying REAL TIME + PAUSE = MONEY is false, just like saying DIABLO STYLE GAME = MONEY is false.

 

Anything done just for the sake of money is always going to fail.. it has to stand on its own right outside of that, and then if its good it will sell and the money will follow anyway , doing it any other way is just foolish and will come back to bite you.

[Diogo Ribeiro]

@Greatjon:

 

1)

I when I said RT in this context, I meant more along the lines of NWN without pause. That's a perfectly playable system for some classes, but it would be hard to use all of the feats and other tactical options.

Thats why I pointed out back there the need for a clean and easily accessible interface for strictly real time games.

 

My point is that it is possible to do so, and make the game entirely RT, it would just be mostly useless without pause. It is possible to have combat based upon tactical planning and decisions, not on constant interaction and reflexes, in a non-TB environment.

 

Note that you're trying to replace one thing by another that's almost the same. You state there isn't a need for player reflexes, but you will tap that pause button based on your reflexes whenever a problem arises or when you want to give orders. You state there isn't a need for constant interaction, but you constantly interact with it when you pause and issue all orders (and you will do this very often specially if you are controlling a party, unless you rely on your characters to have scripts that determine their actions - like attacking the nearest enemy when their current enemy is dead - which then makes it just a simple click and watch). The more enemies you have to deal with and the more options you have for doing so, the more you will have to constantly interact with it.

 

Also, just the addition of pause does not make it instantly have more tactical planning or decisions. Adding a pause system adds the ability to include more options, thats certainly a fact. But what good is the pause or the added options if the options still have to contend with the fact that they are still executed in real time? There are quite some things which can

[Revolver]

I've only played a demo of Fallout, and I found the combat in it pretty dull. When I've played games like JA2 and SS, anything else is quite a step down.

You should try the full game- you can pick it and the sequel up for pretty cheap these days. It's very likely you wont be disappointed.

 

Of course, unlike JA2 and SS, combat isn't all (or even a little) of what Fallout is about. If you took the combat system for any RPG (like Baldur's Gate for example) and stuck it into the Fallout demo, I doubt you would have found it interesting.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

I've only played a demo of Fallout, and I found the combat in it pretty dull. When I've played games like JA2 and SS, anything else is quite a step down.

Fallout was good in spite of the combat rather than because of it. Of course if you judge it from the "in the day" perspective there wasnt much in the way of RTWP around.

 

But today you really couldnt pay me to sit through those rat encounters.Or the lets have a whole army of non controlled characters so I get to wait even longer to actually do something.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

How is TB a limitation?

In PnP you have no choice but to take turns. If you dont then you get chaos because everyone would be talking and trying to do something at the same time and a human DM cant cope with that kind of sensory overload.

 

A computer on the other hand has no problem multitasking. In fact they are very good at it.

 

RT is something that can only be done on a computer. The pause aspect is there to facilitate the interaction between the computer and user.

 

I see very little reason to place the limits of one media on another just because.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

It's not the next day, but oh well...

Actually those are your examples not mine....

Sure, I brought those two games up in the first place, but my question was aimed at countering this:

Most people I've had contact with on various message boards (not like its a huge number) say that Silent Storm is amazing. Likewise they say JA2 is amazing.

 

However neither sales record of those games I would consider worth Obsidians time. Not with the overheads in Calif. Of course its Feargus you have to convince not me.

You bring up sales records, and I was simply asking you to put things in perspective.

---

Regarding FF Tactics- it was a Playstation 2 version, but I'm not sure about the specific one. I played one battle- though I only controlled one character, I had to wait an eternity for my turn, as the NPCs not only took a year to decide what to do (menu navigation and everything), the attack animations were boring and time consuming. Plus everything was on a damn bland rectangular grid. And finally, everyone was a cartoony midget. In Fallout, where, unless you were attacking an entire town, there was never waiting around, the NPCs attacked unhesitantly, the animations were either quick or sadistically amusing, and the great combat feedback and taunts kept me interested throughout.

In perspective of what ? As I said I didnt bring those games up and I dont have figures for them.

 

You would be better off asking Feargus what he considers as "acceptable" numbers of units sold. But I seriously doubt 75,000(JA2 at time of release) would have him cracking open the bubbly.

 

Ah well I've not played that one in many years. If you never controlled more than one character though. You didnt play it beyond the tutorial levels.

 

Rectangular , or hex , not really much difference. I dont know about quick. I can still remember waiting around for rats to do their thing even this long after playing FO. And waiting for the rest of my non controlled party to do the same. All the time hoping they wouldnt either shoot me in the back, or hit someone and cause everything to go hostile thus causing me to reload and have to do it all over again.

[Volourn]

TB, and RT w/pause can both be fun. Make them both. That is all.

[Spook]

Preferbly TB if they have to choose.

[Revolver]

Actually those are your examples not mine....

Sure, I brought those two games up in the first place, but my question was aimed at countering this:

Most people I've had contact with on various message boards (not like its a huge number) say that Silent Storm is amazing. Likewise they say JA2 is amazing.

 

However neither sales record of those games I would consider worth Obsidians time. Not with the overheads in Calif. Of course its Feargus you have to convince not me.

You bring up sales records, and I was simply asking you to put things in perspective.

In perspective of what ? As I said I didnt bring those games up and I dont have figures for them.

Look at your own goddamn quote. "However neither sales record of those games I would consider worth Obsidians time."

 

And I said that you can't make that statement because they belong in the market for computer squad based tactical games. Read the whole thing over again. What's so damn hard to understand?

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

In perspective of what ? As I said I didnt bring those games up and I dont have figures for them.

Look at your own goddamn quote. "However neither sales record of those games I would consider worth Obsidians time."

 

And I said that you can't make that statement because they belong in the market for computer squad based tactical games. Read the whole thing over again. What's so damn hard to understand?

JA2 and SS ? Fair point but that still dosnt alter that I dont think 24,000 and 75,000 respectively would have anyone jumping for Joy.

 

I dont happen to have any figures for TOEE do you ?

 

What is the highest selling STB CRPG ?

 

By wont do you any harm do you mean financial harm ? Because thats probably the only applicable one in the case of a business.

[Spook]

Actually those are your examples not mine....

Sure, I brought those two games up in the first place, but my question was aimed at countering this:

Most people I've had contact with on various message boards (not like its a huge number) say that Silent Storm is amazing. Likewise they say JA2 is amazing.

 

However neither sales record of those games I would consider worth Obsidians time. Not with the overheads in Calif. Of course its Feargus you have to convince not me.

You bring up sales records, and I was simply asking you to put things in perspective.

In perspective of what ? As I said I didnt bring those games up and I dont have figures for them.

Look at your own goddamn quote. "However neither sales record of those games I would consider worth Obsidians time."

 

And I said that you can't make that statement because they belong in the market for computer squad based tactical games. Read the whole thing over again. What's so damn hard to understand?

A "famous" quote from SP:

 

"It makes perfect sense. You simply didnt understand it. Next.."

 

Just so you would understand SP Revolver.

Sometimes we make statements that follow us through life.

[Saint_Proverbius]

What is the highest selling STB CRPG ?

A better question would be to ask what games haven't sold at all and what combat modes did they use when you're assessing risk. Another better question would be how many of them there are. Like I said, you can say Diablo 2 sold better than ToEE until you're blue in the face. That doesn't change the fact that just about every single game that's copied Diablo 2 has bombed and the list of those bombs is quite lengthy.

[Revolver]

JA2 and SS ? Fair point but that still dosnt alter that I dont think 24,000 and 75,000 respectively would have anyone jumping for Joy.

 

I dont happen to have any figures for TOEE do you ?

 

What is the highest selling STB CRPG ?

 

By wont do you any harm do you mean financial harm ? Because thats probably the only applicable one in the case of a business.

1) Yes, when I quote you, the words directly underneath USUALLY refer to what I'm replying to...

2) I NEVER asked you for sales figures

3) Didn't I spend the last 3 pages carefully explaining why the sales figures of disappointing games like TOEE and heavily marketed games w/ popular licenses are useless in evaluating whether is it still financially viable to release a RPG w/ turned based combat??? Go back and read- especially the parts you chose not to respond to.

4) For your last sentence, are you referring to the topic subtitle? Yes it means that the company won't be hurt financially by making a turn-based game. You know what can hurt a company? Lionheart.

 

*sigh* Spook, I see what you mean...

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

What is the highest selling STB CRPG ?

A better question would be to ask what games haven't sold at all and what combat modes did they use when you're assessing risk. Another better question would be how many of them there are. Like I said, you can say Diablo 2 sold better than ToEE until you're blue in the face. That doesn't change the fact that just about every single game that's copied Diablo 2 has bombed and the list of those bombs is quite lengthy.

True to a point.

I'm sure your well aware of my "if your going to make a bad game your better of making it Turn Based"

 

Well Diablo is an original property and deserves its success.

 

However I would compare TOEE with BG and NWN myself.

 

No one is talking about copying Diablo... Rather copying BG. The IE series and the RTWP has a proven track record of success.

 

So your Diablo example dosnt really hold water there.

 

I would bet money that if your talking RPGs then STB's probably dont even reach 10% of the numbers of RTWP.

 

Still I'd like to know what the highest selling one is if anyone knows.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

1) Yes, when I quote you, the words directly underneath USUALLY refer to what I'm replying to...

2) I NEVER asked you for sales figures

3) Didn't I spend the last 3 pages carefully explaining why the sales figures of disappointing games like TOEE and heavily marketed games w/ popular licenses are useless in evaluating whether is it still financially viable to release a RPG w/ turned based combat???  Go back and read- especially the parts you chose not to respond to.

4) For your last sentence, are you referring to the topic subtitle?  Yes it means that the company won't be hurt financially by making a turn-based game.  You know what can hurt a company?  Lionheart.

 

*sigh*  Spook, I see what you mean...

Well some of that wasnt in response to you anyway.

Sales figures are interesting. If your effectively saying make this type of game because I PROMISE you it wont cause you financial harm , then you really need to back something like that up with some solid evidence.

I didnt buy your explanations in the slightest thats why. Plenty of excuses why certain things didnt sell. But not one solid piece of evidence to support why an STB game made by Obsidian would sell.

 

One wonders if you would accept legal responsibility for you promise ? IE you tell them the number of units they would sell if they made game X then you pay for every unit that dosnt sell upto that number.

 

Is there any evidence of STB RPG's selling ? Or just excuses for why they dont.

[Saint_Proverbius]

No one is talking about copying Diablo... Rather copying BG. The IE series and the RTWP has a proven track record of success.

Actually, you brought up Diablo about 6-7 pages ago. If you want to bring it up versus the sales of ToEE or another turn based game, I think it's entirely fair to bring up that it's clones haven't sold worth a crap.

 

As for copying the IE, what about Prince of Qin and Gorasul, which were IE clones? They tanked. Two of the studios that have managed to make money off IE style gameplay to date actually used the IE, BIS and BioWare, and even then IWD2 tanked. About the only IE clone, as in not actually using IE itself, I can name that's sold really well is Dungeon Siege.