Anime - Kono Dio Da!

[Bartimaeus]

@majestic

It's also a really short show... Imagine if something of Sakura's length and tone* slowly pulled off a dark shift like that over the entire course of the show. Dang, that'd be awesome.

*...And art style, and animation, and writing quality, and character quality, and individual episode quality...okay, yeah, I think you get the point. I mean, it doesn't have to be exactly Sakura's tone, either, but something that starts out relatively wholesome but definitely good like Sakura could be the perfect vessel for a really messed up subversion, if it wasn't just stupid nonsense for the sake of being stupid nonsense**. I guess it's something that can really only happen in a movie most of the time because of how much it would mess with your target audience. But if Steven Universe can go from a show that's about eating popcorn on waffles and fish heads on pizza to something altogether a bit more serious like it did, I feel like it could be successfully done somehow. Why do most shows always leave us wanting for somewhere between a little and a lot more? I also can't help but think of your theoretical Miyu re-imagination/sequel here...

**

Spoiler

Alas, Madoka!

 

Edited October 17, 2021 by Bartimaeus

[majestic]

19 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

@majestic

It's also a really short show... Imagine if something of Sakura's length and tone* slowly pulled off a dark shift like that over the entire course of the show. Dang, that'd be awesome.

*...And art style, and animation, and writing quality, and character quality, and individual episode quality...okay, yeah, I think you get the point. I mean, it doesn't have to be exactly Sakura's tone, either, but something that starts out relatively wholesome but definitely good like Sakura could be the perfect vessel for a really messed up subversion, if it wasn't just stupid nonsense for the sake of being stupid nonsense**. I guess it's something that can really only happen in a movie most of the time because of how much it would mess with your target audience. But if Steven Universe can go from a show that's about eating popcorn on waffles and fish heads on pizza to something altogether a bit more serious like it did, I feel like it could be successfully done somehow.

Sure it could be done. You'd probably need to lower the bar of expected quality a little, because Cardcaptor Sakura level of everything seemingly forming a perfect fit with only a few outliers that aren't great but still good is something that is hard enough to strive for without going for a troll-level subversion. You can do that naturally if your audience grows up with the material, i.e. like in Harry Potter that arguably went from children's to young adult entertainment over its runtime (to blatant cash grabs, but that's neither here nor there).

The actual problem, indeed, like you said - who would sign off on that premise if you came up with a, say two or three season setup (48 to 72 episodes, give or take), that starts out as a cute and fluffy story but becomes increasingly dark and terrifying - not necessarily violent - with an incredible twist at the end.

Not that there aren't shows like that in a certain way. Dog of Flanders starts out as a show about a nice boy who rescues a dog from a violent owner and his grandfather, and it becomes increasingly bleak, but that's not dark fantasy. It's just life as a penniless peasant, and more of a children's show, even with the bleakness (it was adapted from a children's book, after all). 

Rest spoilered for Gorth's sake.
 

Spoiler

Well, you hated the execution of Madoka, but it wasn't a bad idea. It heavily toyed with expectations  and shone a light on the problems an actual magical girl setup would have.

Back when I watched it I thought it was great - and I still think it's good, however after watching Violet Evergarden's examination of post-conflict disconnection from society and dealing with post traumatic stress, it's... a little pale in comparison, but it also never had as much a grounded premise as Violet Evergarden did (silver arms or no, curiously enough the light novel it was adapted from is much more ludicrous in everything, and you bet, there are commenters and posts about how poor the adaptation is because Violet doesn't wield a two handed axe larger than herself to make mincemeat out of enemies).

So for now* we have Madoka, who actually tried to pull that off with the pink fluffy unicorns dancing on rainbows promotion, but didn't have the runtime or the character strength - and arguably not even the focus - to properly pull it off. It was mostly about subverting the sentai team setup and the fluffy magical girl pet sidekick (i.e. Kero, by far and large) and delivering that third episode shock moment with Mami dying.

Some chaos in X that tried to meld action, character interactions and an end of the world plot into a shoujo package that did nothing of it well enough. I'm not sure Blood-C counts as an attempt. There are moments in there when it becomes clear that CLAMP was involved. Both of those also start off immediately with their opressive atmospheres, even if the first episode of Blood-C is Saya being happy and bubbly.

Spoiler for the last Blood-C episode:

Spoiler

There's actually a reason for the monsters toying with Saya - that's because Fumito has a way of controlling them. He just tells Saya about it in another exposition dump. I know they wanted to drag out the Fumito is the actual monster, not the monsters, sort of reveal until the very end, but that didn't work because it's so easy to figure out (at least... for me) and it came with way too much exposition.

Maybe show him use his means of control (just have a mysterious figure prepare a monster, and done, you no longer need Fumito tell Saya directly that he's in charge of the attacks). He did put Saya to sleep after all. Sure, the teacher called that hypnosis for the benefit of the audience, but it was noticable enough without it. *shrug*

Lastly there's Miyu which was great, but also... flawed, and pretty dark right from the start.

*At least in terms of shows I'm aware of.

 

1 hour ago, Bartimaeus said:

Why do most shows always leave us wanting for somewhere between a little and a lot more?

Yeah, even Cardcaptor Sakura has a couple of moments where you're thinking: "Wouldn't it be great if the characters were just a little older so we could add some more... mature drama moments to everything?", or at least I was. As always, that's complaining on a very, very high level here.

Still, there's always something, yeah. Sailor Moon could do with better story episodes, Steven Universe could have been even better without studio interference, K-On! with more focus in the second season and less source material adaptation in the first. X was only a rewrite (well, perhaps more than one rewrite, but still) away from being legitimately good, not just a show with no target audience that I like because sometimes flaws end up being endearing for me.

1 hour ago, Bartimaeus said:

I also can't help but think of your theoretical Miyu re-imagination/sequel here...

To be honest I'm kind of surprised that the general idea never came up. Not Miyu-specific, but assuming for a moment vampires or any other mythical creature would be real, the world as it is now would be increasingly problematic to stay hidden in. Sure there have been things like Blade or Underworld, but they don't exactly deal with that - nor are they character focused shojo anime. Instead of handwaving it away, wouldn't it be nice to have a show like that?

Miyu would just have been a great vehicle for that because the setup was already there. All it would have taken was less of a focus on episodic demon action and more character interactions. Well, and maybe less demonic chickens at the end.

 

Oh, right, Blood-C, Episode 12. There's a Nine Inch Nails song title that's the appropriate for the last two episodes:

It is even on the very appropriately titled "things falling apart" remix album.

Everything just implodes, in a way I've only seen in Devilman Crybaby so far. 11 is a major exposition dump and 12 just...

Spoiler

Has Fumito summon a horde of pink monster bunnies that kill everyone left alive, he takes the only main cast survivor (Yuka) away on a helicopter that Saya almost manages to jump up towards. He shoots her eye out and the anime ends with her bandaging it and running after him, towards a large city at the horizon.

I'm really hoping the movie brings this to some sort of satisfying close, because that was, yeah, lackluster.

 

[Bartimaeus]

Guys, this is supposed to be a shoujo series, not an idiotic shonen...uh, wait a second...

Oh, I guess it is a shonen. Whoops, that's my bad, I thought it was supposed to be a shoujo show this entire time.

2 hours ago, majestic said:

Yeah, even Cardcaptor Sakura has a couple of moments where you're thinking: "Wouldn't it be great if the characters were just a little older so we could add some more... mature drama moments to everything?", or at least I was. As always, that's complaining on a very, very high level here.

Still, there's always something, yeah. Sailor Moon could do with better story episodes, Steven Universe could have been even better without studio interference, K-On! with more focus in the second season and less source material adaptation in the first. X was only a rewrite (well, perhaps more than one rewrite, but still) away from being legitimately good, not just a show with no target audience that I like because sometimes flaws end up being endearing for me.

There are too many episodes in these shows - Sailor Moon, Cardcaptor Sakura, Miyu - that revolve around the same formula. In Sakura's case, the formula is a little more fluid than something as neurotically faithful as Sailor Moon, but still too many episodes were essentially...

1. Early on, (X event) is mentioned as being something that is going to happen later. Often something relating to school, but could be familial, friend, or personal interest-related as well.
2. Some lighthearted yet usually either meaningful or funny personal character stuff happens until then.
3. Hint that some kind of mischief or threat on the part of something (i.e. a card) or someone is going to happen.
4. (X event) actually occurs, and things are fine up until the problem that needs to be resolved suddenly appears!
5. Problem gets resolved, wrap up the episode.

How many episodes follow this same general outline? A lot...many...maybe most of them. Not all of them, but...probably most of them. It's not a bad formula by any means, but it is a formula that kind of keeps a show pretty safe and predictable, even if everything else about is great. And to me, that is the real problem of shows from...well, let's say specifically the shoujo genre? - they are safe and predictable, which kind of creates a...sort of void of tension. I know everything's going to be O.K. in a show like Sakura - she's literally promised it repeatedly, and nothing about how the show "speaks" to the viewer could ever suggest it could be anything but that. The great thing about Sakura is that it has lovable characters, interesting character-obstacle interactions, occasionally a new setting for an episode to take place, simple yet clever and effective resolutions, a world that feels surprisingly consistent and grounded and actually representative of where it's supposed to take place, etc...and the show expresses its "ideas" (everything that it is - characters, plots, themes, et cetera) in a way makes sense and is satisfying to me. The irony is that other shows can be way more unpredictable and have great potential for tension...but they do literally just about every single other thing between somewhat and incredibly wrong that there's literally zero chance of me ever caring. Art style and animation, characters and dialogue-style, appropriate tone, setups and payoffs, a setting that actually feels like a setting as opposed to a vague or fake nothingness where things just kind of happen, simply the way the show communicates to the viewer via the use of film language, et cetera. If you get one of these elements wrong in a large way, I'm going to be dissatisfied with your show on some level. If it does some of the other things well enough, I may eventually get over it...but when you start get multiple things very wrong, we get to the point where I can instantly tell that a show has literally zero chance of working for me.

Neon Genesis Evangelion is a show I genuinely had trouble prognosticating, because it felt like it was all over the place in such a variety of ways. Even after watching it twice, I still feel that way - if I was to try to recommend it someone else, it would be difficult for me to tell who would like it and who wouldn't, especially because the show kind of undergoes some shifts as it goes on - shifts that could make or break the show for some people, or not even be a blip on others' radars, depending on what appeals to you most. I stuck with it the first time around because it didn't do anything outstandingly wrong even if I got frustrated and confused with it and how it did things. Something like Sakura or Sailor Moon is much simpler in comparison - if you're not deriving some kind of enjoyment from these shows within the first handful of episodes, it's 99.9% not for you and you probably shouldn't keep watching, because they are pretty much exactly what they're communicating they are right off the bat, and while they have some slight shifts and aberrations over time, they basically stay true to that all the way through.

...I forgot where I was going with this. I guess my overarching point is that it'd be nice if these shows weren't so formulaic. It would help elevate them even further if you could have some Sailor Moon episodes that that could eschew its neurotic formulas when appropriate (and there were so many instances where it would have been, where you could've really spent some time on our beloved characters and setting up and resolving meaningful issues over longer periods of time!), or Sakura episodes that could really truly present some darker or mature ideas (even without anything bad happening to anybody!), or Miyu episodes that really tackled the realities of being a semi-ancient vampire in an increasingly modern world...ideas that aren't necessarily completely novel in of themselves, but which would be when seriously pursued and presented within their respective shows and seeing how the show's characters would interact with them when not so incredibly confined and constricted by their own formulas.

...Of course, when you give the creative leads too much freedom, you get insanity like Human Instrumentality, but I feel like there's a happy medium between that and formula OCD, you know?

Edited October 18, 2021 by Bartimaeus

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

22 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

Of course, when you give the creative leads too much freedom, you get insanity like Human Instrumentality, but I feel like there's a happy medium between that and formula OCD, you know?

You know what, HIP was great. Come at me.

[InsaneCommander]

LoGH 82-84:

Once again it seems the story will get boring. I don't mind seeing intrigue or other things that don't involve the space battles, but when there is nothing at stake it is difficult to be interested.

Anyway, episode 87 will be the beginning of the 4th and last season, so we will see.

14 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

What's up with the ridiculous amount of anime shows with next episode previews, anyways? Is it like an industry standard or something? I'm trying to think of any western animation shows that do it and I can't think of any...

No idea, but it's about time I stop watching them. They really don't care about spoilers.

[Gorth]

6 hours ago, majestic said:

Yeah, however, as far as these go, it's only the the extent of the twist that's ludicrous, the rest is fairly nicely set up in a way that's subtle at first but increasingly noticable. It just flies completely off the handle at the end, something Gorth mentioned, I think.

Yes. The pacing is awful and the ending felt very rushed (in a bad kind of way). A shame, because the slow build up the first half of the series was actually nice (imho). Sadly the second half, things starts coming apart.

 

Finished watching Elfen Lied. What a great story. Definitely worth the price of entry (this is the version I got https://www.amazon.com.au/gp/product/B00AF1H8G8/ref=ox_sc_act_image_1?smid=A3JCEYBC5L8UJ8&psc=1). Some of us don't have netflix, streaming shows etc. so have to get what we can buy at affordable prices

Not exactly a happy story, but very engaging and dramatic at times. I'll at that to Made in Abyss as my two positive (recent) Anime experiences. Attack on Titan fell by the wayside because it was to expensive if I wanted all seasons and the various standalone stuff, so I'll have a look at that magical girl stuff next. Looks like it's a self contained 12 episode series (i.e. wont break the bank)

(edit: affordable prices, in case anyone clicks the link, translates into me paying around $13 us dollars + shipping for the set)

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

8 minutes ago, Gorth said:

Some of us don't have netflix, streaming shows etc. so have to get what we can buy at affordable prices

Attack on Titan fell by the wayside because it was to expensive if I wanted all seasons and the various standalone stuff, so I'll have a look at that magical girl stuff next. Looks like it's a self contained 12 episode series (i.e. wont break the bank)

Crunchyroll is free (with adds if on a mobile, add free on PC afaik) and has all episodes of AoT (english subbed). You may need a vpn but it's there if you don't want to spend your money on the dvds and can deal with english subs, plus it's free and legal.

Edited October 18, 2021 by KP the meanie zucchini

[Gorth]

3 minutes ago, KP the meanie zucchini said:

Crunchyroll is free (with adds if on a mobile, add free on PC afaik) and has all episodes of AoT (english subbed). You may need a vpn but it's there if you don't want to spend your money on the dvds and can deal with english subs, plus it's free and legal.

I do prefer original language with English subtitles

And I do have a commercial VPN subscription and can pretend to be from anywhere in the world

Edit: And thanks for the heads up, I'll check out Crunchyroll

[majestic]

15 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

There are too many episodes in these shows - Sailor Moon, Cardcaptor Sakura, Miyu - that revolve around the same formula. In Sakura's case, the formula is a little more fluid than something as neurotically faithful as Sailor Moon, but still too many episodes were essentially...

1. Early on, (X event) is mentioned as being something that is going to happen later. Often something relating to school, but could be familial, friend, or personal interest-related as well.
2. Some lighthearted yet usually either meaningful or funny personal character stuff happens until then.
3. Hint that some kind of mischief or threat on the part of something (i.e. a card) or someone is going to happen.
4. (X event) actually occurs, and things are fine up until the problem that needs to be resolved suddenly appears!
5. Problem gets resolved, wrap up the episode.

How many episodes follow this same general outline? A lot...many...maybe most of them. Not all of them, but...probably most of them. It's not a bad formula by any means, but it is a formula that kind of keeps a show pretty safe and predictable, even if everything else about is great. And to me, that is the real problem of shows from...well, let's say specifically the shoujo genre? - they are safe and predictable, which kind of creates a...sort of void of tension. I know everything's going to be O.K.

That's... not wrong. I mean, it's perfectly true. At no point in the run of the 90ies Sailor Moon anime could you realistically think that it will end badly for any of the Sailor Senshi, except for Pluto whose time travel related punishment just gets glossed over when she just comes back. As silly as that sounds, with the way Crystal goes, you have more tension - if you wouldn't know what will happen and that everything will be all right, of course - because it's much serious and more focused. Even more so than the manga, because it really drops most of the lighhearted stuff that's already not very present in the source material.

Of course Crystal is terrible from start to finish. I'll have take two helpings of formula please, thank you very much.

CCS is even worse because right from the start everything about the show tells you it's going to be okay, even before Sakura literally tells herself that.

15 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

in a show like Sakura - she's literally promised it repeatedly, and nothing about how the show "speaks" to the viewer could ever suggest it could be anything but that. The great thing about Sakura is that it has lovable characters, interesting character-obstacle interactions, occasionally a new setting for an episode to take place, simple yet clever and effective resolutions, a world that feels surprisingly consistent and grounded and actually representative of where it's supposed to take place, etc...and the show expresses its "ideas" (everything that it is - characters, plots, themes, et cetera) in a way makes sense and is satisfying to me.

Indeed. However, that might not be just because it's shoujo, look at X, that tried something different. It failed on almost every level, even I can see that when looking at it objectively. It is perhaps a function of its time, they're all 90ies shoujo animes after all, including Miyu, which also sticks to the same formula and just inverses it by making it the very rare exception for any of the random characters to actually survive.

It's the primary reason I was able to take a shot in the dark:

Spoiler

To come up with the idea that Chisato is simply a hidden shinma even though there was absolutely no indication that anything at all was weird with her. What was it I said, "This is something Outer Limits would do too." wich - also a product of the 90ies, was really similar in tone.

Part of the issue with Sailor Moon is of course that the episodes that do break the mold are usually the less interesting story episodes. Most others are concentrated in S, but still resolved in two parters at the maximum.

There's something that I think I need to say though: If something is good but repetitive it takes a very, very long time to bother me. In SuperS, it really bothered me, but everyting about that season was wrong. Aside from that, repetition gives me a feeling of familiarity, and a sense of loss once it is over. That's just me though. I mean, it bothers me when a picture no longer hangs where it always was. Part of the formulaic nature was probably so the shows appeal to their target demographics, that we enjoy them ended up not entirely being an abberation, because both Sailor Moon and Cardcaptor Sakura had (and still have) adult fandoms, but an abberation of intent nonetheless.

15 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

The irony is that other shows can be way more unpredictable and have great potential for tension...but they do literally just about every single other thing between somewhat and incredibly wrong that there's literally zero chance of me ever caring. Art style and animation, characters and dialogue-style, appropriate tone, setups and payoffs, a setting that actually feels like a setting as opposed to a vague or fake nothingness where things just kind of happen, simply the way the show communicates to the viewer via the use of film language, et cetera. If you get one of these elements wrong in a large way, I'm going to be dissatisfied with your show on some level. If it does some of the other things well enough, I may eventually get over it...but when you start get multiple things very wrong, we get to the point where I can instantly tell that a show has literally zero chance of working for me.

It's something I thought of while watching the end of Blood-C.

Spoiler

What happens to Saya is terrible, but I just sat there and didn't really care. Whether or not she gets her vengeance on Fumito, whatever. The ending made sure it doesn't bother me/I don't care one way or the other. The death of her father, who - surprise - wasn't her father at all and the moment between them when it happend was all that resonated with me. It's not that I didn't like Saya, but the way the ending treated her left me not caring.

I watched the first half rather quickly, and the second half increasingly slower. *shrug* Still pretty bingey, all in all, but for all its faults, it was more entertaining than Steins;Gate which sort of lost me along the way.

16 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

Neon Genesis Evangelion is a show I genuinely had trouble prognosticating, because it felt like it was all over the place in such a variety of ways. Even after watching it twice, I still feel that way - if I was to try to recommend it someone else, it would be difficult for me to tell who would like it and who wouldn't, especially because the show kind of undergoes some shifts as it goes on - shifts that could make or break the show for some people, or not even be a blip on others' radars, depending on what appeals to you most. I stuck with it the first time around because it didn't do anything outstandingly wrong even if I got frustrated and confused with it and how it did things. Something like Sakura or Sailor Moon is much simpler in comparison - if you're not deriving some kind of enjoyment from these shows within the first handful of episodes, it's 99.9% not for you and you probably shouldn't keep watching, because they are pretty much exactly what they're communicating they are right off the bat, and while they have some slight shifts and aberrations over time, they basically stay true to that all the way through.

Wildely different setup and premise too, not just because one is a mecha anime deconstruction and the others are magical girl shows. The intention for Sailor Moon was to have something like Pretty Cure turned out to be - a magical girl version of Super Sentai / Power Rangers. Something you can tune in when you feel like it, with ever changing casts in between seasons. Cardcaptor Sakura sometimes feels as if it was made specifically to ride on the success and popularity of Sailor Moon. Doesn't really matter though - it is great, after all.

I keep bringing Pretty Cure up. I'm honestly curious how that is, and it could be possible that the discontinuity between seasons means that I could just watch one and stop. Or two, because the first series is two seasons. On the other hand, if that doesn't work, then I'm going to waste a lot of time. It's also part of the reason why I'm kind of loathe to try Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha. On the one hand, it supposedly contains critical elements that make it sound appealing, but it also appears to be utterly full of a nerd's worst dreams about magical girls come true - a magica girl seinen* show. Dear God... 13 episodes wouldn't be so bad, but there's half a ton of spin-offs and movies waiting.

16 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

...I forgot where I was going with this.

So did I. How did we get to Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha?

16 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

I guess my overarching point is that it'd be nice if these shows weren't so formulaic. It would help elevate them even further if you could have some Sailor Moon episodes that that could eschew its neurotic formulas when appropriate (and there were so many instances where it would have been, where you could've really spent some time on our beloved characters and setting up and resolving meaningful issues over longer periods of time!), or Sakura episodes that could really truly present some darker or mature ideas (even without anything bad happening to anybody!), or Miyu episodes that really tackled the realities of being a semi-ancient vampire in an increasingly modern world...ideas that aren't necessarily completely novel in of themselves, but which would be when seriously pursued and presented within their respective shows and seeing how the show's characters would interact with them when not so incredibly confined and constricted by their own formulas.

Yes, absolutely. The absolutely worst thing that you could do is an episode like Minako and Makoto fighting in SuperS. Hey guys, we need to wrap that up in the rest of the episode. Ideas? Hey, let's just have them make up for reason at all. They're fighting for no reason at all too. "Okay, great!"

It's not that the girls shouldn't have a fight. Realistically, any group of friends will be at odds sometimes. Take a couple of episodes. Make Miyu be caught on camera, or something. Sakura got found out by Tomoyo though, but ultimately, that's about the only really surprising thing the show pulled off, and that was right after the start of the show.

16 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

...Of course, when you give the creative leads too much freedom, you get insanity like Human Instrumentality, but I feel like there's a happy medium between that and formula OCD, you know?

Indeed, there really should be a happy medium. I wonder if it exists. Human Instrumentality... yeah. I once saw a video that argued instrumentality is just Gendoh's version of sex, and that's because Shinji ultimately rejects it. Because he can't get a boner outside of staring at Asuka's helpless bewbies, or... something. I'll just leave you with that happy thought. Have fun with it!

*I'm approaching a point where I'm more likely to watch something marked as seinen than shounen. The ecchi elements, if present, are similar, if not entirely the same, but at least seinen anime has a chance of not having an infantile storyline to accompany them. Every now and then I'm wondering if I shouldn venture off the beaten path and try something josei, but then I go through lists and read titles like My Lesbain Experience With Loneliness and I'm like "nope, I'm out of here" and just leave it at that. Just because something is written by women for adult women doesn't mean its necessarily less ridiculous than seinen. Just look at 50 Shades of Grey. Or rather, just don't.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Way of the Househusband s1 part 2.

It's pretty much the same as the first batch of episodes, not very well animated but hilarious. I'd recommend it as something light to watch that doesn't require too much attention.

[Bartimaeus]

3 hours ago, majestic said:

I once saw a video that argued instrumentality is just

drphil.gif

3 hours ago, majestic said:

*I'm approaching a point where I'm more likely to watch something marked as seinen than shounen. The ecchi elements, if present, are similar, if not entirely the same, but at least seinen anime has a chance of not having an infantile storyline to accompany them. Every now and then I'm wondering if I shouldn venture off the beaten path and try something josei, but then I go through lists and read titles like My Lesbain Experience With Loneliness and I'm like "nope, I'm out of here" and just leave it at that. Just because something is written by women for adult women doesn't mean its necessarily less ridiculous than seinen. Just look at 50 Shades of Grey. Or rather, just don't.

Yeah...I've always assumed that seinen has a better chance of working out than shonen, because shonen tends to be as stupid as anime can get. Any time I see a show strongly tagged/voted with "shonen", that is a huge red flag. As for josei, my 15 minute investigation of that particular category lead me to conclude that josei is very much like how "fiction for women" is really just code for being the most terrible and embarrassing form of romance you can possibly find. If we were to assume that Japan as told by anime demographics is actually accurate, I can only assume that Japanese boys are predictably quite stupid in your typical boy-ish fashion, Japanese girls will at the very least be pretty emotionally intelligent, Japanese men kind of average out over time by virtue of being all over the place, and Japanese women may possibly be even dumber than the boys. Obviously, that's not actually accurate, but these are the stereotypes these demographic labels are forcing my mind to notice!

Nanoha: I looked over it quickly and was about to say "well, I don't see any significant warning signs based on what I'm seeing here besides the character designs/animation being less than ideal, but..." and then I saw that there was a catgirl (or maybe fox...girl?) "familiar" and, eh...

Precure: 49 episodes + 47 episodes + three movies + 49 episodes + movie + 49 episodes + two movies + 48 episodes + 50 episodes + two movies + 49 episodes + three movies + 48 episodes + movie + 48 episodes + two movies + 49 episodes + two movies + 49 episodes + three movies + 50 episodes + three movies + 50 episodes + two movies + 49 episodes + two movies + 49 episodes + two movies + 49 episodes + 45 episodes + movie + 33 episodes (so far) + movie. Yes, I just counted all of that up - that's nearly a thousand episodes plus literally 30 movies. Just being realistic here, is there any chance that a show that has that much in it could ever possibly be good over such an extended period of time? Likely the absolute and completely unrealistic best case scenario, you get a couple of Sailor Moon-quality-ish seasons from people who knew what they were doing for a short amount of time in the show's run (but which still won't ever be able to match your love for the original Sailor Moon) before they moved on to better things and replaced so that the rest becomes somewhere approaching SuperS or the Nadia filler, if not worse. Would that be worth it?

3 hours ago, majestic said:

There's something that I think I need to say though: If something is good but repetitive it takes a very, very long time to bother me. In SuperS, it really bothered me, but everyting about that season was wrong. Aside from that, repetition gives me a feeling of familiarity, and a sense of loss once it is over. That's just me though. I mean, it bothers me when a picture no longer hangs where it always was. Part of the formulaic nature was probably so the shows appeal to their target demographics, that we enjoy them ended up not entirely being an abberation, because both Sailor Moon and Cardcaptor Sakura had (and still have) adult fandoms, but an abberation of intent nonetheless.

Yeah, I wouldn't say I'm bothered by the formula of these shows per se (okay, well, with Sailor Moon who so ferociously stuck to it, I think it had run its course by the end of S after 120 or so episodes, IMO), but it definitely makes them less creative and more predictable simply by their nature.

3 hours ago, majestic said:

It's something I thought of while watching the end of Blood-C.

If you're not invested into the show, its world, the characters, the themes, and then it doesn't properly accomplish what it's trying to do in a way that appeals to you...that's a pretty natural result. Well, at least it is for me - there are people out there who can watch a show and as long as it's viscerally entertaining enough can just go "this is wild lmao" and that's enough for them, but it never is for me, not even close. Wish I could do that...sometimes.

19 hours ago, KP the meanie zucchini said:

You know what, HIP was great. Come at me.

It was a novel but insane and ludicrous idea that only somewhat came out of left field for NGE. ...It could've gone a lot worse, .

Edited October 18, 2021 by Bartimaeus

[majestic]

56 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

drphil.gif

Here, aptly named YouTube called "Mother's Basement":

The only redeeming thing he has is that he has a fairly positive video on Sailor Moon. Although I'm not entirely certain of that. Could be some other guy.

56 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

Yeah...I've always assumed that seinen has a better chance of working out than shonen, because shonen tends to be as stupid as anime can get. Any time I see a show strongly tagged/voted with "shonen", that is a huge red flag. As for josei, my 15 minute investigation of that particular category lead me to conclude that josei is very much like how "fiction for women" is really just code for being the most terrible and embarrassing form of romance you can possibly find. If we were to assume that Japan as told by anime demographics is actually accurate, I can only assume that Japanese boys are predictably quite stupid in your typical boy-ish fashion, Japanese girls will at the very least be pretty emotionally intelligent, Japanese men kind of average out over time by virtue of being all over the place, and Japanese women may possibly be even dumber than the boys. Obviously, that's not actually accurate, but these are the stereotypes these demographic labels are forcing my mind to notice!

It's hard not to see it that way, isn't it? Josei really looks by far and large to be cringey romance at best, and utterly horrible niche entertainment at worst. The show you got recommended a while back sounds like the worst thing ever, a crossdresser hiding in a building full of unemployed men-hating women. It's not that... far fetched to see it as vis a vis shounen which is cringey action at best and utterly horrible niche entertainment at worst.

That's also of course not entirely accurate, there's shounen anime I liked, e.g. Fullmetal Alchemist (not really a recommendation for you there, Edward is way too much of a typical shounen protagonist - but you might have ruled it out already anyway), but in general, that seems to hold true. FMA was pretty good in spite of having Edward, and his brother helped a good deal in making him bearable.  

56 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

Nanoha: I looked over it quickly and was about to say "well, I don't see any significant warning signs based on what I'm seeing here besides the character designs/animation being less than ideal, but..." and then I saw that there was a catgirl (or maybe fox...girl?) "familiar" and, eh...

That's the magical girl pet sidekick of the show. I think. Not sure.

56 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

Precure: 49 episodes + 47 episodes + three movies + 49 episodes + movie + 49 episodes + two movies + 48 episodes + 50 episodes + two movies + 49 episodes + three movies + 48 episodes + movie + 48 episodes + two movies + 49 episodes + two movies + 49 episodes + three movies + 50 episodes + three movies + 50 episodes + two movies + 49 episodes + two movies + 49 episodes + two movies + 49 episodes + 45 episodes + movie + 33 episodes (so far) + movie. That's nearly a thousand episodes plus literally 30 movies. Just being realistic here, is there any chance that a show that has that much in it could ever possibly be good over such an extended period of time? Likely the absolute and completely unrealistic best case scenario, you get a couple of Sailor Moon-quality-ish seasons from people who knew what they were doing (but which won't ever be able to match your love for the original cast) and the rest is somewhere approaching SuperS or the Nadia filler, if not worse. Would that be worth it?

No, of course it can't possibly be worth it... for me, and apparently there were a lot new episode since the last time I checked the count. There it was "only" like 800 and 25 movies or something, and they're probably all going to stick to some sort of neurotic, never changing setup, or at worst, all be as interesting as Sailor Moon R's story episodes.

56 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

If you're not invested into the show, its world, the characters, the themes, and then it doesn't properly accomplish what it's trying to do in a way that appeals to you...that's a pretty natural result. Well, at least it is for me - there are people out there who can watch a show and as long as it's viscerally entertaining enough can just go "this is wild lmao" and that's enough for them, but it never is for me, not even close. Wish I could do that...sometimes.

I mentioned that because the ending took me so hard out of it that it killed my appreciation for Saya as a character, and it's not even really her fault. After the first couple of episodes I said I could watch her skip around town singing all day, and I mean that. The ending? Yeah, no.

Otherwise I agree. I wish I could watch Nu Trek and just go "well that's fun, a bit stupid but fun!" when there's some pew pew and space machine Cthulhu reapers from dark space that want to liberate artifical life forms from the yoke of organics. Really. I just can't. I also can't not watch it. Which... yeah.

Anyway, wish me luck. I decided to make my earlier post a lie and not begin to wrap other stuff up. Time for Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha, episode 1. No matter what, probably still beats Steins;Live!

Edited October 18, 2021 by majestic

[majestic]

Ten minutes in this feels awfully familiar. No, I haven't seen the show in the past at all, but it feels like watching a Sailor Moon / Cardcaptor Sakura hybrid that at the same time looks an awful lot like the template for the opening of Puella Magi Madoka Magica.

Beat for beat. Except it's Nanoha's mother that does the cooking, and there's an older brother and an older sister.

At least Nanoha got up in time, on her own, but not before struggling with her mobile phone's alarm clock for a bit.

Still plenty of time for a lot of stupid to happen, of course, but so far this isn't as bad as I feared it would be. Except for the magical girl that turned into a ferret right at the start. She was trying to capture a monster with a pokeball. Eh, something jewel. Nope, she said seal, like... Sakura's card sealing. Complete with magical circle.

Not an original thought in this yet, but that's fine for an opening.

edit:

Severely hurt ferret is calling to Nanoha telepathically to come and save it. Uhm... wow. If this keeps up I have to re-evaluate the point of origin for Madoka a bit.

edit 2:

Ferret-thing keeps using boku as pronoun, might be a boy, not a magical girl.

Edited October 18, 2021 by majestic

[Bartimaeus]

I did not see anything that would suggest there would be any kind of ecchi content, so if there is anything, I'd guess it'd be very mild indeed. Curious that it is labeled seinen, though - things must not be as they seem on some level!

29 minutes ago, majestic said:

It's hard not to see it that way, isn't it? Josei really looks by far and large to be cringey romance at best, and utterly horrible niche entertainment at worst. The show you got recommended a while back sounds like the worst thing ever, a crossdresser hiding in a building full of unemployed men-hating women. It's not that... far fetched to see it as vis a vis shounen which is cringey action at best and utterly horrible niche entertainment at worst.

That's also of course not entirely accurate, there's shounen anime I liked, e.g. Fullmetal Alchemist (not really a recommendation for you there, Edward is way too much of a typical shounen protagonist - but you might have ruled it out already anyway), but in general, that seems to hold true. FMA was pretty good in spite of having Edward, and his brother helped a good deal in making him bearable.  

I don't even remember what show you're talking about there, but it sounds terrible. Definitely no @ FMA: I saw all I needed to see with that 15 years ago when my sister was watching it, . And hey, I still have my one exception to my "no shonen" rule, which is the first season of Ranma...

[majestic]

4 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

I did not see anything that would suggest there would be any kind of ecchi content, so if there is anything, I'd guess it'd be very mild indeed. Curious that it is labeled seinen, though - things must not be as they seem on some level!

Well, before the hurt boy or girl turned into a ferret, he/she was bleeding, so it's going to have more violence, I expect. Not really any gore.

One very minor upskirt so far (20 minutes into the first episode). Definitely nothing really ecchi, but that would be supremely weird with a nine year old magical girl. But who knows, it's the first episode. It might devolve into complete nonsense in an episode or two.

6 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

I don't even remember what show you're talking about there, but it sounds terrible.

Princess Jellyfish.

7 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

Definitely no @ FMA: I saw all I needed to see with that 15 years ago when my sister was watching it, . And hey, I still have my one exception to my "no shonen" rule, which is the first season of Ranma...

Heh. I really would like to watch that first Ranma season, but how am I going to escape the bad later?

[majestic]

2 minutes ago, majestic said:

Definitely nothing really ecchi, but that would be supremely weird with a nine year old magical girl. But who knows, it's the first episode. It might devolve into complete nonsense in an episode or two.

He posted right before the transformation sequence. Although, in all fairness, Princess Tutu's was more, let's say, detailed. This one is a good deal longer though.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

1 hour ago, Bartimaeus said:

It was a novel but insane and ludicrous idea that only somewhat came out of left field for NGE. ...It could've gone a lot worse, .

I think it works because it's ludicrous and insane, rather than in spite of it. From the beginning it was hinted at that Gendo and Seele were up to something, and given the trajectories of Evangelion it being some nonsensical thing makes more sense than some standard thing where Shinji fights his dad in a robot or gets shipped with Asuka. A mind bending wtf was the best way to end it.

Anyways it's time for Berserk.

[majestic]

First episode of Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha.

1 hour ago, Bartimaeus said:

I did not see anything that would suggest there would be any kind of ecchi content, so if there is anything, I'd guess it'd be very mild indeed. Curious that it is labeled seinen, though - things must not be as they seem on some level!

So yes, not all must be how it seems. The devil is in the transformation sequence, where Nanoha is as nude as any of the Sailor Guardians were, or Princess Tutu is, except not nearly as stylized as the former, but not nearly as detailed as the latter. It does magically undress her, so that's... borderline dealbreakerish, even if it doesn't do anything differently than other Magical Girl shows. 

Nanoha looks a bit like a hybrid Sailor Moon / Cardcaptor Sakura. Her magical girl costume looks like a Cardcaptor Sakuraish version of Sailor Moon, except with a long skirt. Has a staff/glaive with a gem in the middle (currently looks more like a crescent moon than the image). Really... honestly, if there's one negative thing I would have to name for now, besides the transformation sequence, is that there's nothing original about it. Like... nothing.

Looks a lot like a hybrid step between Sakura and Madoka. Some uncanny looking animation, but it's looking a bit better in motion than the stills do when you google it.

edit:

Nanoha's older brother catches her sneaking back into the house after a midnight adventure sealing magic a monster into a card jewel seed. You know show, if you keep doing this I'm going to have to compare you to CCS, and that comparison you will undoubtedly not come out ahead of.

edit 2:

Ferret-thing is called Yuuno and probably the origin for Madoka's telepathic communication with Kyubey.

edit 3:

The second episode thankfully opted to skip the transformation sequence. And the overly ridiculous transformation incantation.

Edited October 18, 2021 by majestic

[Bartimaeus]

1 hour ago, majestic said:

Princess Jellyfish.

Doesn't ring a bell. ...Oh, Kuragehime, yeah that...almost rings a bell. Well, I vaguely remember the banner image anyways. My brain likes to reject information that it doesn't want to have, and I guess this was one of those things.

1 hour ago, KP the meanie zucchini said:

I think it works because it's ludicrous and insane, rather than in spite of it. From the beginning it was hinted at that Gendo and Seele were up to something, and given the trajectories of Evangelion it being some nonsensical thing makes more sense than some standard thing where Shinji fights his dad in a robot or gets shipped with Asuka. A mind bending wtf was the best way to end it.

It certainly beats the snot out of the idiocy Rebuild pulled. Give me weird and insane if they at least try to set it up rather than stupid and boring that they didn't even bother with, I suppose.

1 hour ago, majestic said:

transformation

Remind me to give some more bonus points to Sakura for ditching the whole ridiculous transformation thing entirely - the best part of them even in Sailor Moon was the dope music. Oooooh, Sailor Moon! Sailor Mars, Sailor Mars! Sailor Veeeeenus! Sailor Juu-peh-tuh! ...IIRC, they didn't really do anything special for Ami's song, but it was still good. Dang, thinking about that really makes me want to re-watch the show.

How come shows keep ripping off Sailor Moon and Cardcaptor Sakura? It's kinda like they were...great shows or something, I don't know!

Edited October 18, 2021 by Bartimaeus

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

8 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

It certainly beats the snot out of the idiocy Rebuild pulled. Give me weird and insane if they at least try to set it up rather than stupid and boring that they didn't even bother with, I suppose.

Y do u hate Anno's waifu?

[Bartimaeus]

4 minutes ago, KP the meanie zucchini said:

Y do u hate Anno's waifu?

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/81req5z10wlo830/9p3fjmFzGA.mp4

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

1 minute ago, Bartimaeus said:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/81req5z10wlo830/9p3fjmFzGA.mp4

 

 

[Bartimaeus]

It boggles the brain that there are people out there that listen to this guy every day. I apologize to everyone for bringing Alex Jones into this thread on two separate occasions now.

Edited October 19, 2021 by Bartimaeus

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

23 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

It boggles the brain that there are people out there that listen to this guy every day. I apologize to everyone for bringing Alex Jones into this thread on two separate occasions now.

Perhaps it's because I grew up in Texas, but it doesn't surprise me at all. If anything I'm surprised there haven't been more imitators. The US is full of dumbasses who want to believe the dumbest ****, Alex gives the ones who want to believe conspiracies about alien demons an outlet and hawks the brain pills while he's at it. When you get down to it the grift ain't that much different from more normal media personalities or reality TV stars, they're building a brand based of an image and cashing in.

Which is to say we're all ****ed and should just watch anime instead of caring. Like Berserk, the best 90s seinen anime.

[Bartimaeus]

43 minutes ago, KP the meanie zucchini said:

Which is to say we're all ****ed and should just watch anime instead of caring. Like Berserk, the best 90s seinen anime.

It's on my to-do list to at least try - it might just take a while to get to it, especially because I haven't really been much in a watching (anything) mood as of late.