Anime - Oh No! Oh My God!

[Sarex]

6 minutes ago, majestic said:

When has listening to the fans ever made anything better? It made Pillars of Eternity worse with each patch (and the gameplay wasn't very good to begin with), it certainly made these movies even worse, I'm semi-positive that the final showdown between the Cleganes in Game of Thrones was inserted because it was a super popular fan theory (one of the dumber ones at that), it pretty much ruined WoW with Cataclysm, really... you can implement some ease of use changes the fans would like in your game when you interact with them, but otherwise, yeah, listening to the fandumb = bad idea.

Granted, we could argue that Disney didn't listen to the fans and ruined Star Wars that way, but giving the fans what they wanted would probably be just as awful.

*That's still somewhat normal for Japanese working culture anyway, I recently saw a video of a Japanese guy who said he once got chewed out by his boss for over an hour because he replied to a yes and no question with the Japanese equivalent of "of course" (mochiron, in case someone's interested), which isn't the keigo way to talk to your boss, and that happens to natives, so how are we silly gaijin supposed to get that right? kek

Tbf, Pillars was doomed from the start. You can't sell a product that is going to be the new baldur's gate and after getting funded you proceed to tell the fans how you didn't like baldur's gate and are going to change a bunch of things because of that... Not to mention that, putting personal opinions aside, the rebuild movies were a financial and critical success.

on a separate topic: https://bloody-disgusting.com/tv/3679522/netflixs-live-action-cowboy-bebop-series-will-premiere-november-first-images-revealed/

[Bartimaeus]

35 minutes ago, Sarex said:

Not to mention that, putting personal opinions aside, the rebuild movies were a financial and critical success.

Not that hardly any "normal" critics have seen or watched these films to begin with, and that anyone who hasn't already watched Neon Genesis would find it horrifically inaccessible even if they did try, and that general non-anime viewers would probably try it out and be like "well, that was the last time I'm ever going to try anything anime-related ever again". But yes, critical success among Evangelion fans*!

*Who we've already determined are by and large dummies, by the way, .

Edited August 24, 2021 by Bartimaeus

[Sarex]

I tend to agree, as I don't put much stock in to reviews nor do I read them.

[Sarex]

For you JoJo fans

[majestic]

22 hours ago, Sarex said:

I think that Asuka was referencing the second movie, I have rewatched the scene and while you are right and he did not want to hurt her, he really didn't do anything other than get strangled. Perhaps she wanted him to do something more, or perhaps she wanted him to be the one who stopped her and not an automated robot (Asuka is not the most rational character), or the most probable reason that she is angry with him is that he would have let her kill him.

 

20 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

[...]so yeah, I can understand being mad at him for it. It's less about him being indecisive about multiple possible choices and more about him being indecisive about the single possible choice that he wouldn't take but should've because...yeah, it was the only choice (especially seeing as, uh, he could've been a lot more gentle with destroying Unit 04 than the dummy plug).

I'll answer both: Yes, of course, realistically it is a non-choice. Attack the Angel and maybe be able to save your friend in the process, or watch everyone die.  I have an issue with Asuka accepting Shinji's answer, because that answer makes no sense in the context of the fight. He wasn't waffling around what to do, he flat out refused to attack his friend (in the context of the films, "friend" is a meta assumption ).

20 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

Maybe it's less to do with costs and more to do with nobody knowing how to do it anymore. That'd be even worse than if it was just because studios were being cheap.

There's still  some 2D animation around, the biggest problem actually, in my opinion, at least, is digital coloring. The digital effects and sometimes CGI'ed camera pans aside, Violet Evergarden was animated on paper, and then scanned and colored digitally. As far as I know, Steven Universe was made in the same way*, as was Infinity Train. It's not using cels and real color that causes the character models to look the way they do.

In terms of Violet Evergarden that's kind of doubly worse because the scanned backgrounds that were actually drawn look pretty good, when they're not massacred by digital effects or how noticably different the character models are.

Of course, the fully CGI sequences in Evangelion looked terrible to boot, and not only that, they had noticably bad physics too, you'd think that should improve when rendering everything digitally, but nope. Anti-Universe or not, Gendo and Shinji kicking each other into houses that blow around as is they weren't there, yeah, guys really, ReBoot did that better, and that was in 1994.

*For key animation, at least, I'm not sure if the in-betweens weren't made digitally too.

22 hours ago, Sarex said:

I think you are putting too much stock in what Asuka said to Rei, I think she was just trying to be hurtful. If there really were any modifications like she said, how was she able to transcend human limitations in the end.

I would be inclined to agree had Gendo not specifically said that the Ayanami and Shikinami type (by the way, why has a Asuka a different middle name in rebuild?) pilots were designed for this very moment when Asuka and Rei acted as trigger for Another Impact. Besides, Asuka removes what looks like a control rod from her damaged eye before transcending her humanity.

Still would like to know where Mari got her part Adam from, I don't think she should be able to initiate beast mode without it. Probably best not to overthink it.

22 hours ago, Sarex said:

The difference is that in one ending we get "Disgusting" and in the other we get a resolution, character growth and an uplifting note.

I don't know, to be honest. If the ending of the series was all we ever got, then I would agree, but I can't think of much that End of Evangelion left me wondering about. A lot is left vague, and that's not always bad, it explained what the difference betwene SEELE's and Gendo's plan was, it explained the Human Instrumentality Project well enough and the ending makes sense. Sure, the implication that Asuka and Shinji can move on - together - isn't overly great because those two are clearly not healthy for each other, but otherwise there could be worse things, really.

Like one of the characters could come crawling out of a casket, then fall down, with the other main character unable to save her. Then both leave the setting of the show. Because why not.

20 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

I can't remember what happened in the fight where Unit 04 gets infected vs. the fight where Rei gets absorbed

Nitpicky correction: That was Unit-03, master. Unit-04 terminated in an explosion costing many meatbag lives when the internal power supply test failed (or the original S² engine test in the original).

22 hours ago, Sarex said:

I don't know why you guys hate Anno's wife, what has she ever done to you.

I still don't think that she's supposed to be Anno's wife if she never was a character he wanted to create in the first place, and when asked/forced to for marketing reasons let others come up with them. But who knows.

3 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

I believe what happened is that she was used in promotional imagery and advertising for Evangelion as a whole long before 2.0 was ever released (Anno mentioned that he suspected she was mainly for commercialization...), which is what sparked the fandom asking to see her. Pretty sure she appears just the same in 2.0 as she does in 2.22 - IIRC, 2.22 is a few minor scene additions and modifications as well as some image/graphical updates.

Sure thing, but I suppose Mari might have been edited into the script, not just the film, after at least a couple of drafts were done already, or the concept was there. Either way, all her scenes scream "I'm not supposed to be in this!" and by all information we have here that's exactly what happened. Score one for the fandumb, I guess.

Hey, good thing I had this post saved, because forum just ate the first attempt at posting it. Holy hell...

[Bartimaeus]

21 minutes ago, Sarex said:

I tend to agree, as I don't put much stock in to reviews nor do I read them.

RedLetterMedia has taught me to pay attention to score distributions. Some movies have a relatively average to good (but not great) score overall but then you look at the score distribution and instead of seeing a normal bell curve-ish distribution, you'll see an unusual amount of very high scores and very low scores. Even if the overall average score looks average at a glance, an unusual distribution like that means it was overall divisive movie where some viewers thought it was irredeemably terrible while others thought it was one of the best movies they've seen in a while. Which side you'll fall on will depend on how the movie appeals to specifically you and your own film sensibilities.

However, ratings for already established properties/franchises are becoming borderline useless unless you already know all of the context because you get the fandom that will usually always rate it very highly regardless of its quality (unless they made some very significant missteps that turned the fandom against it) and an anti-fandom that will always negatively rate them regardless of its quality just because it's popular and they don't like it. Furthermore, how can you even tell if general (i.e. non-fandom, non-hater) audiences are even tuning in and how they feel about it in comparison to the people who are already knee-deep into it? General audiences didn't see these Evangelion Rebuild movies, but the hordes of Evangelion fans sure did. Doesn't really tell me anything except that the typical Evangelion fan generally liked them, which is...not very helpful, especially for someone that already had some major issues with NGE (i.e. me).

Anyways, reading individual reviews themselves doesn't generally mean diddly squat unless you know whom the reviewer is and what their general tendencies in what they do and don't like are (and if there are specific subjects, themes, properties, character types...whatever, that specifically appeal or the opposite to them).

Edited August 24, 2021 by Bartimaeus

[Sarex]

19 minutes ago, majestic said:

I'll answer both: Yes, of course, realistically it is a non-choice. Attack the Angel and maybe be able to save your friend in the process, or watch everyone die.  I have an issue with Asuka accepting Shinji's answer, because that answer makes no sense in the context of the fight. He wasn't waffling around what to do, he flat out refused to attack his friend (in the context of the films, "friend" is a meta assumption ).

He says: "It's because I couldn't make up my mind, when you were inside unit 3. I didn't help you and I didn't kill you. Because I didn't want to take responsibility." I don't see where the issue is. He did not want to attack her, but he didn't do anything to help her either. I think what I said still stands. 

22 hours ago, Sarex said:

I think that Asuka was referencing the second movie, I have rewatched the scene and while you are right and he did not want to hurt her, he really didn't do anything other than get strangled. Perhaps she wanted him to do something more, or perhaps she wanted him to be the one who stopped her and not an automated robot (Asuka is not the most rational character), or the most probable reason that she is angry with him is that he would have let her kill him.

 

19 minutes ago, majestic said:

I would be inclined to agree had Gendo not specifically said that the Ayanami and Shikinami type (by the way, why has a Asuka a different middle name in rebuild?) pilots were designed for this very moment when Asuka and Rei acted as trigger for Another Impact. Besides, Asuka removes what looks like a control rod from her damaged eye before transcending her humanity.

Still would like to know where Mari got her part Adam from, I don't think she should be able to initiate beast mode without it. Probably best not to overthink it.

Does not mean they were emotionally programed, or confirm what Asuka said is true as they obviously had no idea what Gendo's plan was.

  

22 minutes ago, majestic said:

I still don't think that she's supposed to be Anno's wife if she never was a character he wanted to create in the first place, and when asked/forced to for marketing reasons let others come up with them. But who knows.

That was a joke on my part.

  

20 minutes ago, majestic said:

I don't know, to be honest. If the ending of the series was all we ever got, then I would agree, but I can't think of much that End of Evangelion left me wondering about. A lot is left vague, and that's not always bad, it explained what the difference betwene SEELE's and Gendo's plan was, it explained the Human Instrumentality Project well enough and the ending makes sense. Sure, the implication that Asuka and Shinji can move on - together - isn't overly great because those two are clearly not healthy for each other, but otherwise there could be worse things, really.

Like one of the characters could come crawling out of a casket, then fall down, with the other main character unable to save her. Then both leave the setting of the show. Because why not.

It was such a blueball ending, that it's not redeeming in my eyes.

 

 

Edited August 24, 2021 by Sarex

[majestic]

1 minute ago, Sarex said:

He says: "It's because I couldn't make up my mind, when you were inside unit 3. I didn't help you and I didn't kill you. Because I didn't want to take responsibility." I don't see where the issue is. He did not want to attack her, but he didn't do anything to help her either. I think what I said still stands. 

The subs I had on Amazon said nothing about Unit-03, otherwise I wouldn't even have asked what they're talking about. Hmmm. Odd. But yeah, that clears it up pretty well.

The subs were pretty weird at time. Lots of typos, missing spaces and sometimes missing sentences. Quality work there.

[Sarex]

1 minute ago, majestic said:

The subs I had on Amazon said nothing about Unit-03, otherwise I wouldn't even have asked what they're talking about. Hmmm. Odd. But yeah, that clears it up pretty well.

The subs were pretty weird at time. Lots of typos, missing spaces and sometimes missing sentences. Quality work there.

I'm sorry, but if the quality of the subs was of that level you need to rewatch the movie with better subs. I think we found why you disliked the movie.

[Bartimaeus]

50 minutes ago, majestic said:

I'll answer both: Yes, of course, realistically it is a non-choice. Attack the Angel and maybe be able to save your friend in the process, or watch everyone die.  I have an issue with Asuka accepting Shinji's answer, because that answer makes no sense in the context of the fight. He wasn't waffling around what to do, he flat out refused to attack his friend (in the context of the films, "friend" is a meta assumption ).

Wouldn't the actual issue be with Shinji coming up with that answer in the first place, then? To Asuka, it would probably indeed look like indecision (he did not attack her, did not try to go on the defensive, and he did not even try to run away...he just sat there like someone frozen in fright), so it would make sense she would accept that answer...but Shinji very clearly made the decision that he would not attack her, so why would he answer that he couldn't decide in the first place? It would make a lot more sense to answer "because I wouldn't destroy Unit 04 03" or "because I wouldn't do what had to be done" or something like that instead. I'm not sure, but yeah, that is a weird answer now that I think about it.

50 minutes ago, majestic said:

Of course, the fully CGI sequences in Evangelion looked terrible to boot, and not only that, they had noticably bad physics too, you'd think that should improve when rendering everything digitally, but nope. Anti-Universe or not, Gendo and Shinji kicking each other into houses that blow around as is they weren't there, yeah, guys really, ReBoot did that better, and that was in 1994.

Watching Asuka's fight with the Mass Production units in The End of Evangelion is *chef's kiss*. Everything looks and feels so right from in perspective, size, and weight... When Asuka uses one of the fake spears against one of the MP unit's own and they just clang and rebound off of each other, and then both Asuka and the MP unit are just floundering around and completely staggered from the force of it for literal entire seconds while they recover...or when Asuka "kills" one of them and one of the spears just goes flying off into the trees and tears through everything, or when one of them leaps at her from above while she's already engaged with another and she has to kind of awkwardly roll away while the earth upturns with her every movement...

And then we get to Rebuild where it's just absolute weightless, meaningless video game garbage while the camera's panning around doing 360s and there's a trillion objects and particles on screen all moving around at once and making it so you can even barely comprehend what you're seeing, and...my gosh, how far the medium has fallen. It's truly, disturbingly, and depressingly sad.

50 minutes ago, majestic said:

*For key animation, at least, I'm not sure if the in-betweens weren't made digitally too.

I thought I remembered reading about how they have some kind of technology that helps them generate frames in between the key-frames that they then tweak and clean up to help speed up the animation process, but I may be completely making that up.

50 minutes ago, majestic said:

Like one of the characters could come crawling out of a casket, then fall down, with the other main character unable to save her. Then both leave the setting of the show. Because why not.

50 minutes ago, majestic said:

Nitpicky correction: That was Unit-03, master. Unit-04 terminated in an explosion costing many meatbag lives when the internal power supply test failed (or the original S² engine test in the original).

Oops, I've been calling it Unit 04 every single time.

Edited August 24, 2021 by Bartimaeus

[majestic]

16 minutes ago, Sarex said:

I'm sorry, but if the quality of the subs was of that level you need to rewatch the movie with better subs. I think we found why you disliked the movie.

Maybe in 25 years, after a stroke or two. But certainly not right now, and not for a 2 hour 40 minutes film - which I said, by the way, was my "favorite" (least bad, at least) one of the Rebuild series.

23 minutes ago, Sarex said:

It was such a blueball ending, that it's not redeeming in my eyes.

I cordially disagree, but please go ahead and watch Revolutionary Girl Utena, then we can talk some more about balls in particular, blue or otherwise. And eggs. And a cow tranformation...

Edited August 24, 2021 by majestic

[Bartimaeus]

17 minutes ago, Sarex said:

It was such a blueball ending, that it's not redeeming in my eyes.

...In what way? I could understand saying that for the original ending of NGE especially with how strange and confusing it was, but The End of Evangelion? The entire process of Human Instrumentality was absolutely exclamation point insane, with a lot of character stuff between Shinji and the other characters (especially Rei). No, their (and Earth's) futures weren't completely spelled out and maybe you wanted to see/know that, but...I don't know, the more I think about it in retrospect, the more it feels right to me: this ain't a Disney movie where every last thing needs to have a neat little bow tied around it in its conclusion, . Focus and give the time to the big stuff, and that's pretty much what it did.

Edited August 24, 2021 by Bartimaeus

[majestic]

4 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

Wouldn't the actual issue be with Shinji coming up with that answer in the first place, then? To Asuka, it would probably indeed look like indecision (he did not attack her, did not try to go on the defensive, and he did not even try to run away...he just sat there like someone frozen in fright), so it would make sense she would accept that answer...but Shinji very clearly made the decision that he would not attack her, so why would he answer that he couldn't decide in the first place? It would make a lot more sense to answer "because I wouldn't destroy Unit 04" or "because I wouldn't do what had to be done" or something like that instead. I'm not sure, but yeah, that is a weird answer now that I think about it.

Assuming for a moment that Amazon's English subtitles weren't the best (it's such a hassle to switch subtitles around in their stupid interface, so I let them sit at English for rebuild) and he specifically references the Unit-03 fight like Sarex said and mentioned that he didn't want to take responsibility that starts to make much more sense. Not the part about him not being able to decide, but not wanting to take responsibility until it was taken away from him, that works. Specifically because it's also something Asuka would really have a problem with, rather than him not wanting to kill her.

7 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

I thought I remembered reading about how they have some kind of technology that helps them generate frames in between the key-frames that they then tweak and clean up to help speed up the animation process, but I may be completely making that up.

Maybe, I might be getting the interviews and production pipelines mixed up. Might have been Infinity Train then that scanned inked outlines and key animation and sent everything to a Korean studio to do in between animation.

[Bartimaeus]

7 minutes ago, majestic said:

Assuming for a moment that Amazon's English subtitles weren't the best (it's such a hassle to switch subtitles around in their stupid interface, so I let them sit at English for rebuild) and he specifically references the Unit-03 fight like Sarex said and mentioned that he didn't want to take responsibility that starts to make much more sense. Not the part about him not being able to decide, but not wanting to take responsibility until it was taken away from him, that works. Specifically because it's also something Asuka would really have a problem with, rather than him not wanting to kill her.

Oh, you probably got the subtitles for their own English dub, where Shinji actually says the same thing - that he couldn't decide. Well, that's kind of funny...but also weird, because those subtitles didn't always match Amazon's own English dub anyways. There should really always be options for both "subtitles for original language" and "subtitles for dub"...

Edited August 24, 2021 by Bartimaeus

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

1 hour ago, Sarex said:

For you JoJo fans

Huh. Well if part 7 was a retelling of part 1 and part 8 was a Mashup of parts 3+4 (with a reference to 2), I guess that means JoJoland could be a reference to 5 or 6. Either way if it tracks with every other part of JoJo it's going to be completely insane. 

[Malcador]

https://variety.com/2021/tv/news/cowboy-bebop-premiere-date-first-look-john-cho-1235046075/

Yoko Kanno is involved, so music will be ok enough I guess.

 

 

[Bartimaeus]

1 hour ago, Malcador said:

https://variety.com/2021/tv/news/cowboy-bebop-premiere-date-first-look-john-cho-1235046075/

Yoko Kanno is involved, so music will be ok enough I guess.

I can't believe you didn't keep up with this entire topic to see Sarex post this some hours ago. It's like you're not even religiously following this thread or something.

11 hours ago, Sarex said:

on a separate topic: https://bloody-disgusting.com/tv/3679522/netflixs-live-action-cowboy-bebop-series-will-premiere-november-first-images-revealed/

Speaking of Yoko Kanno, I was literally just watching...

Memories (1995). Netflix advertised Memories to me not all that long ago (maybe a couple of months ago?), but it seems like it's no longer on there - what a pity.

Starting with Magnetic Rose. It's a fitting name. Oddball, really good sci-fi...way greater appreciation for it this time compared to the first watch, same as Millennium Actress (watching all of Perfect Blue, Memories, Millennium Actress, and Paprika in a short amount of time may not have been my wisest decision). Good art and story, great animation (well except for one particular element that looks like Sailor Moon R: The Movie's one bit of CGI), and maybe even better music (by Yoko Kanno!).

Spoiler

Can't escape Covid-19 even in space, dang it. Anyways, I don't want to say anything more about this one, except that it's very good as is typical for Kon. Technically, he only wrote it, didn't direct it, but eh, whatever.

Stinkbomb. Speaking of Covid-19...the setup is super obvious and you'll get it within literally just a couple of minutes...

Spoiler

Man works at pharma R&D and takes some experimental pills that he thought were for curing colds...becomes a walking, talking WMD.

Even though it's obvious and complete nonsense, it's good and a lot of insane fun just for the extremes it goes to with its premise, plus the animation might be even better in this one than the last, and the last was already great.

...And then we have the ugly stepchild of the three to finish it off, Cannon Fodder. ...But it's actually still pretty decent, all things considered. Didn't remember anything at all from this one from the first time I watched it, went much better than I expected this time around.

Spoiler

Has some...weirder visuals than the other two, and the style is totally different.

Kind of an anti-fascist message though it never quite gets around to saying it directly, but that's just fine (and probably preferable) with me.

If this trend of Satoshi Kon stuff being even better on a second viewing keeps up, I should just about think Tokyo Godfathers and Perfect Blue are the best films of all time (since those two were my favorites of his until I re-watched Millennium Actress and had to place it right up there as well)...assuming I ever find the constitution to re-watch the latter at all. As for Memories as a whole, it's good stuff, well-recommended.

Edited August 24, 2021 by Bartimaeus

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

What are yall talking about? There's never been any live action anime adaptations produced by Netflix. 

[Malcador]

28 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

I can't believe you didn't keep up with this entire topic to see Sarex post this some hours ago. It's like you're not even religiously following this thread or something.

Oh, damn, I just scanned up a bit but didn't see it

[majestic]

Pursuing Untamed Ornithoids: Detours

Well, in case anyone saw that particular Star Trek: TNG episode, that was Data's way of saying he's on a wild goose chase, and I made a detour on mine a couple of hours ago, because after having watched a couple of episodes of Attack No. 1, Robin Hood and the Evangelion films Amazon's algorithm thinks it has figured out what I cold possibly like in anime and started making suggestions.

This came up:

Now, far be it for me to see a picture like that and go: "Hey, I need to check that out, like immediately!" because just look at it, could anything scream "I'm the emo lead in this year's usless shonen manga adaptation" any more than a bishonen character with black hair and black and purple clothing?

However, that design looked familiar, the clockwork mechanisms, the feathers and the character face.

So what is this, then? Well, something called:

X, or X/1999, or in the original: Ekkusu (just pronounced "X", because silent "u"s )

The name also did not really make me want to check it out, but hey, after Natsu E No Tobira being really weird, Princess Tutu not really what I wanted it to be and pretty much out of ideas at the moment, I went to good old Wikipedia to look at the classification, and hey, look at that:

Can Amazon perhaps get me interested in a contemporary dark fantasy shojo anime, one based on a manga by CLAMP, no less? Well, ponder this: If someone's lying in the desert, dying of starvation and a magical genie comes around offering water, will they drink?

There's a film, an OVA and a TV show, released in this exactly this order.

The film... well, the bad news is if you watch the film on Amazon Prime Video, you'll really quickly find out that it looks like a NTSC VHS scan. It's so bad it is unwatchable, and the only alternative I have found is an upscaled DVD version with a host of filters applied to make it somewhat watchable, but that left it with too much red*. Everything that's supposed to be white has a, well, pinkish-red tinge, which is super annoying, but beats not being able to discern anything - and I mean that, the Prime Video source is so bad you literally can't make out details.

The upscaling and all the filtering left it looking like a game running in DOSBOX with the resolution scaled up by the supereagle scaler.

Hello, I'm your favorite DOS game mangled by supereagle (except with red instead of yellow tinging) because screw CRT screens!

The sad part about this is, well, if there would be a quality source, then...

...then this would look damned good, wouldn't it?

Eh, and just because something's release in a shojo magazine apparently doesn't make it immune to fanservice, even if the framing for this is still somewhat all right.

Just in case you're wondering, that woman is played as the evil sister of a princess with white hair and white clothing. In case it's not obvious.

Why can't you have a good quality source, film? Why? I mean really, why?

It's also pretty gory when there's violence. They sure went a little overboard with the dark in dark fantasy. Spoiler tagged because spoiler.

Spoiler

Woops. So much for Toya's sister, Toyarina. I mena, Fuma's sister Kotori...

Both sisters have a vision of the future where she dies here, in one she gets stabbed, in this one decapitated by wires. It's quite gruesome, really.

Want to guess if she survives the film?

Spoiler

Really? Guess you haven't been paying attention. No, while she doesn't die from decapitation by wire or a stab in the heart, she does so because she bears her brother a sword. I mean that literally. The rams a fist through her belly into her womb and pulls a sword out. The sword isn't his child, so don't worry, this isn't Utena. It was put there by he white princess' dark younger sister. How else are we going to symbolize the birth of the chosen one's dark counterpart?

Yeah, it's really pretty brutal at times. Did I mention that already?

There's something else, virtually every character in this looks like Fujitaka or Toya (warning, this is hyperbole - but it's closer to the reality of the film and the series than I would like). And that includes the girls. No, I'm not kidding. Okay, that's wrong, by the way, because the manga is older than Cardcaptor Sakura, but for demonstration purposes, just look at the pictures above and the one from the introduction. That's not the same character, but they both look like Toya. The girl looks like Toya too, just with longer hair.

The movie is apparently a 90 minute version of the later 24 episodes anime series, and if you think the Rebuild movies have breakneck pacing or the 80ies Miyu OVA is a jumbled mess, you haven't seen this movie yet. It's so fast paced it kills one of the main characters off before he's even introduced. There's supposedly less violence, or toned down violence in the TV anime series. One of the main characters is dressed like a prostitute, and there's no real reason given for it. Or anything at all. I can only guess that she's actually prostitute.

I've already watched the first give episodes of the series, but not the OVA yet, but I will, because it's a prequel, as I later found out. The TV show has much better pacing, but is still a good deal more action-y than I expected. So far there was no filler stuff like in Miyu, but it also feels decidedly different from Miyu. Much less melancholy. I'm kind of hoping for more character stuff after all the introductions are done. There are a lot of characters to deal with.

The story is about two groups of sorcerers (or any sort of magic users) called the Dragons of the Heavens and the Earth respectively. They're both working towards their own goals, but the stakes aren't low key like they are in Cardcaptor Sakura. It'll be the end of the Earth as we know it, or will it? Well, I guess you'll have to watch to find out. Plus I don't really know yet, because apparently the movie isn't the most faithful of adaptations.

Anyway, I'm not entirely convinced of the series yet, the movie I don't want to rate because it feels messy, even though it very much was an entertaining watch, even with the quality issues. Some things really don't make much sense.  

Spoiler

Like Dark!Chosen One guy randomly starting to kill off people from his own team.

It also managed to surprise me with the motivation of the dark evil dreamwalker lady with the fanservicey clothing, and that's a job well done, girl. Erm, film.

Spoiler

She basically starts Armageddon to free her sister from her bonds of destiny. Talk about dedication. And a bit of nuttiness. I mean, sure, help your sister if you want, but isn't there a minor wrinkle in the whole apocalypse thing? Maybe?

Not sure if I would call the film a shojo anime though. It's fast paced, has a good deal of action, fighting scenes with magic and swords and is pretty gory at times. it's really more of a universal appeal sort of thing based on a shojo manga. Or something. Really... except for some characerization here and there, and the...

Spoiler

suitably tragic ending that isn't heroic at all.

About the manga series, however, well, what I read a little further on - hopefully that'll be in the anime as well:

Quote

The series is a foray into apocalyptic fiction; it combines elements from various end-of-the-world scenarios, both secular and religious, with its own mythos. Its themes include exploring the personality of humanity, relationships with others, and external conflicts like the impending Armageddon.

Sounds like a promising thing to look forward to, I hope. Sure, it can still turn out bad, but it's not bad so far. It's just with a lot more action than I thought it would be (the TV show now).

The manga is unfinished so far, by the way. I wonder what that means for the ending of the TV show. Hopefully nothing bad. Also, slight spoilers:

Spoiler

I guess the character deaths in the movie will also be in the series, and one of them made me feel really bad. I think that might be much worse for the show. A 14 year old girl dies fighting to protect the chosen one by taking an attack meant for him, then says: "I'm sorry, I didn't do too well. I just wish I had someone to cry for me at my funeral."

Sure, movie, tug on my heartstrings like that, will you? If that really is in the series that's going to be bad. Really bad. Because in the five episodes I've watched so far, she's been the most likeable character so far. Eh, and she's the only child of the group, the others are much older and know what they're getting into. Oh boy.

Oh, and this quote is for @KP the meanie zucchini, you know, just... you know, as payback for putting Mari in your spoiler tag about Revolutionary Girl Utena:

Quote

Nanase Ohkawa cites Go Nagai's Devilman as a stylistic and thematic influence.

Oh, yeah, before I forget, pretty emo boy is a pretty emo bishonen character. You can't really make him look like that and not play the part straight, right? He isn't really into being the chosen one at all, albeit not as whingy as Shinji is. He's more like "leave me alone!" and "meh" and then randomly whacks people away with his telekinetic force thing.

*Maybe there's a real regular DVD source around somewhere. If any of you check it out and find it, let me know.

Edited August 25, 2021 by majestic
Made spoiler tags for the quotes, that's what you get for always using spoilers and post at 2:30 am

[majestic]

2 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

If this trend of Satoshi Kon stuff being even better on a second viewing keeps up, I should just about think Tokyo Godfathers and Perfect Blue are the best films of all time (since those two were my favorites of his until I re-watched Millennium Actress and had to place it right up there as well)...assuming I ever find the constitution to re-watch the latter at all. As for Memories as a whole, it's good stuff, well-recommended.

Don't worry, that can't be because you predicted that Cardcaptor Sakura: The Movie 2 is going to be your most favorite thing ever. Once you get to watch it (not a spoiler, just fun).

Spoiler

In ike 2025.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Edited August 25, 2021 by majestic

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

1 hour ago, majestic said:

Oh, and this quote is for @KP the meanie zucchini, you know, just... you know, as payback for putting Mari in your spoiler tag about Revolutionary Girl Utena:

Quote

Nanase Ohkawa cites Go Nagai's Devilman as a stylistic and thematic influence.

Is it now?

Guess I know what I'm watching next.

Spoiler

Not X, because I'd have to pay or [redacted] to see it, neither of which I have the energy to do. So I guess I will see Ryo drag his childhood friend to a sex club and slip him some acid.

 

 

Edited August 25, 2021 by KP the meanie zucchini

[majestic]

This will be a quick post before I get back to watching, but I'm going to call it:

X, Episode 6: Return of the Shojo

(the actual episode title is Kōya)

Well, and spoilers from here on out, I'll put them in tags, venture in at your own peril. I should probably do a better introductory post than the one I started making for the film, and clean that one up too. Oh boy are there typos, repeated words and jumbled sentences there, but that's what you get for posting this late and after watching a jumbled movie that sort of breaks your brain trying to make sense of it. Whelp. Maybe later, for now I want to continue watching.

I posted that the movie didn't feel like shojo anime, and that there is not as much melancholy present as in the Miyu anime series. Woof. For the X the series, at least, that's not entirely true.

Spoiler

The three main characters that aren't part of the two Dragon groups are Kotori, Fuma and Kamui. Kotori is the sister of Fuma, and all three are childhood friends. Kamui comes back to Toyko after a six year absence. Kotori, now 17 (I think she's supposed to be 17, could be 16 too - she's in high school, at any rate, which is 16-18 in Japan), develops a slight crush on him.

Two of the Dragons of the Heavens are Ashari, a Shinto miko and Sorata, a Buddhist monk. Ashari is usually deadly serious, while Sorata is the complete antithesis of a Buddhist monk. Outgoing, friendly, always laughing, not one bit stoic, and he really loves stuffing his face with food. He's a regular Usagi. He also seems a bit stupid and is trying to flirt with Ashari, which she just, well, ignores, being the polar opposite of Sorata.

They follow Kamui (kamui is both his name and his title) - the Chosen One - around, both to observe his actions and to protect him in case of any attacks by the Dragons of the Earth. Fuma and Kotori's father was attacked by them too, and they've stolen a sacred relic from their shrine, presumably for nefarious purposes. Kotori spent a long while sitting next to her unconscious father at the hospital, when Fuma shows up and sends her home. She needs to get some rest too, he argues, Kotori doesn't want to go and Fuma has an upcoming basketball match anyway.

Kotori faints on ther way out, but Kamui picks her up and brings her home. She says she can't come to Fuma's basketball game but asks Kamui to go instead. He's not very much into it, basketball isn't emo enough (well, and truth be told, I think any 17 year old boy who just found out he's supposed to decide the fate of mankind and started to develop some serious telekinetic powers has all sorts of worries, the least of which would be attending a basketball game). Kotori looks disappointed.

There's a flashback to Sorata's monk training and some of his backstory. He was always a handful, and he was taken from his parents at a very young age to be trained as monk. The head of the temple, an old Buddhist soothsayer, determined that Sorata is fated to become a Dragon of the Heavens. Sorata calls him grandfather even though he isn't. It's clear that the soothsayer likes Sorata very much and regrets having removed him from his family.

True to form, Kamui shows up at the game anyway, giving Fuma a boost in motivation. Meanwhile, Ashari and Sorata are standing on a rooftop nearby, talking. Sorata tells Ashari that he "chose" her, and Ashari is suitably confused. While she has ignored Sorata's talking as best as she could (he talked her ear off, actually, saying that it would be nice if they could go out for dinner, or watch a movie instead of having to follow Kamui around), she now asks what's going on, and what's up with his flirting.

Sorata tells her, through a flashback, of a prophecy his grandfather told him:

"Your destiny is to become one of the Dragons of the Heavens, and help (the) Kamui decide the fate of the Earth. You will, however, die for a woman."

He looks at her, tells her its fine. He's content with his fate, all there's left is to enjoy the time he has left. "If I'm going to die for a woman, I'm glad it's you." And Sorata being Sorata, he obviously can't help saying: "And you're pretty!" because hey, fate is dour enough.

Woops. Yeah, so, do you think this is going to have a happy ending? Nope, me neither.

They're then attacked by a Dragon of the Earth called Satsuki in a really short action sequence  that's there for Sorata to throw himself into harm's way for Ashari, but they both survive. Well, really, we're at episode 6, so there's enough time left, after all. Satsuki doesn't seem to have any powers of her own, but has built a semi-aware machine called "The Beast" with which she can remote control virtually anything with electricity in it. Including live cables.

The next episode seems to focus a bit on Satsuki, from the first minutes I've watched. Ideally that means that the "bad" guys will get some development too. Wouldn't that be something?

Hm. So while Cardcaptor Sakura was aimed at the lower end of the shojo target demographic, this one's pretty much for the upper bounds. So far, so good. It needs to be said though that while it's based on a CLAMP manga, Ms. Ohkawa wasn't involved in writing the series. She did like it, according to an interview.

Edited August 25, 2021 by majestic

[Bartimaeus]

I tried watching the movie for a bit, but I think literally the entire first half hour of its 1:30:00 or so run time is just a giant exposition dump, got me like:

Not how I would structure a movie, personally, .

Edited August 25, 2021 by Bartimaeus

[majestic]

2 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

Not how I would structure a movie, personally, .

You're being too generous when you say the movie has a structure, I think. It really is a horrible mess. It starts with a weird sequence that makes no sense until you get some context later, then proceeds to a massive exposition dump that ends with Kotori and Fuma being abducted by Kanoe (I keep wanting to write canoe) through some unexplained teleportation shenanigans that keep showing up in the film whenever its convenient for the plot to have characters teleported around and then smoothly continues with even more exposition, just from the other party's point of view, and it then follows up to proceed directly to the endgame without introducing the characters beyond "hey, here we are, here are our names, good luck, try not forgetting them all while we start battling in 3 2 1 NOW."

Did you find something watchable without a red tinge?

I'm halfway through the series by now, and it has - obviously - a lot more time to breathe. Both sides are still gathering their members. Some exposition is of course still there, but it flows more naturally from actual dialogue between the characters, or often through showing flashbacks to the character's past. Kamui still has certain things explained to him, of course, but that's partially his role as fish out of the water character. Hinoto telling him about her dream isn't that different from Obi-Wan explaining the Jedi or the force to Luke.

I'm not sure what else is going to happen, if they're really giving every character a focus episode that'll end up being 80% of the entire show's runtime, so I think that's out, but it already got bonus points for actually spending time giving the Dragons of the Earth actual backstories and showing them (at least for Satsuki so far).

The series was made after Cardcaptor Sakura, but the manga wasn't, and it looks like CLAMP learned something in making it, it's one of their earlier works. There are definitely too many characters, and they're looking a good deal too similar, even in the adaptation. So far they're all fairly distinct in characterization, so that part is at least pretty well done.

Pacing, while much better than the film, continues to be a bit uneven, the early episodes having too much action, perhaps. The last two felt like the show's not moving towards anything, even though they were really solid, which would be fine for the beginning, but not really for being at the halfway point of an anime that's apparently much more story driven than say Sailor Moon or Cardcaptor Sakura.

Don't get me wrong, I really like watching Yuzuriha (that is so hard to type for some reason - that's the 14 year old girl with the dog spirit) buying ice cream, making acquaintences and talking to people, and I'd take that over any silly action scene any time of the day, but there are only 24 episodes, and there are 17 characters involved in this, plus some more minor ones. Some parts are going to feel rushed sooner or later.

Now, with all what I've written so far, and having essentially binged half the show and the film in what amounts to roughly half a day so far, it's... sadly not the Cardcaptor Sakura for a more mature audience I initially hoped it would be. It also so far didn't exactly live up to the promise of the sixth episode, which was pretty much a very nice mix of character interactions and just a tiny bit of action in the right dose to spice it up a little. There's a certain air of tragedy hanging over it all, but I'm not sure if that's really present in the series or just something that carried over from the film.

I'd say drop the film, unless you've watched it by now and give the series a chance instead with the time dropping the film frees up, you don't have any problems with stopping something you don't enjoy anyway, what's the worst that could happen, you waste an hour or two. To paraphrase Star Wars, this isn't the shojo I've (we've, I guess) been looking for, but I still like it well enough, luckily, so I don't consider it time wasted. Between Clear Card, Tusbasa: Reservoir Chronicle and X, it really looks like Cardcaptor Sakura was a once in a lifetime creation by CLAMP.

As for the wild goose chase, well, guess I'm going to go and look for other birds in the meantime. By that I mean ducks, because there's also Princess Tutu to finish, where the second season, which I'm also halfway through by now, continues to be a little less interesting than the first season. I think trying new things is on definite hiatus until I've worked off my backlog. Funny, the vacation's almost over, and I wanted to spend the time getting my backlog done, and look what happened. Well, no, I finished Miyu and I'm almost done with Tutu.

There the issue is primarily that it started having trouble with the episodic setup for the season. In the first season it was finding Mytho's heart shards, which explored emotional concepts that worked because Ahiru is a duck and Mytho a prince without a heart, at the moment the show is kind of having common drama and fairy tale plots as the focus point for each episode while structuring the story elements around a one-off character per episode that gets to be the victim of the week.

It's still very well done for what it is, but it lacks... hell, no idea how to articulate that properly, the special something that made the first season enjoyable for me.

Edited August 25, 2021 by majestic