I know what this game needs.

[Craftsman]

I'm confused about your point. You're saying that if an animal kills another of its species then it's due to human interference?

No. Im saying that for examlple with pollution humans have created has casued tings to die out. There indicating pollution as unnatural.

[Enoch]

This is all pretty entertaining, but it's futile. Craftsman is just going to define his terms however he likes to conform to his prejudices. No amount of logic is going to convince him that he's wrong.

 

But, like I said, it's entertaining, so please continue.

[Maria Caliban]

I was responding to jaguars forever with that last post. You still haven't answered my question..

[Nartwak]

This is all pretty entertaining, but it's futile.

It's all just mental masturbation. Join the fun.

[Ivan the Terrible]

I now declare this thread derailed beyond salvation.

[jaguars4ever]

I'm confused about your point. You're saying that if an animal kills another of its species then it's due to human interference?

That would very likely be 'natural selection', ceteris paribus. What I am referring to would be one of your earlier examples of human intervention.

 

E.g. 'Murder' Take the 9/11 terrorist attacks for example. Even though we cannot deny the existence of such an abhorrent event existing within the extremities of our universe, does it still qualify as a 'naturally occurring' event?

[Maria Caliban]

Nartwark,

Mental masturbation is unnatural. Craftman would never engage in it.

 

Ivan,

Not really. I expected this to happen. It's still about gayness, sort of.

[Nartwak]

Mental masturbation is unnatural. Craftman would never engage in it.

Ha!

 

E.g. 'Murder' Take the 9/11 terrorist attacks for example. Even though we cannot deny the existence of such an abhorrent event existing within the extremities of our universe, does it still qualify as a 'naturally occurring' event?

Yeah.

[Gorth]

No. Im saying that for examlple with pollution humans have created has casued tings to die out. There indicating pollution as unnatural.

It's not "unnatural". It's a byproduct of human evolvement. Caries bacteria will generate teeth destroying byproducts to survive in your mouth. Various fungi will kill off entire ecosystems to modify it to their needs. Humans will kill off most of the planet to suit their needs. It's not unnatural, just sad.

 

Again, don't confuse moral values with what is natural. Natural doesn't mean good or right.

[Maria Caliban]

Jaguars Forever,

When I said that murder, theft, and rape happen in nature, I was saying that they happen in nature. Animals murder, steal, and rape each other.

 

As for 9/11, humans are communal creatures and those communities often fight against one another. That is human nature. Now, do I think it's moral? No. Is the form in which it occurred natural? No, humans didn't evolve with planes and nuclear warheads, we're not biologically hardwired to deal with the amount of death we can cause.

[Enoch]

What I am referring to would be one of your earlier examples of human intervention.

 

E.g. 'Murder' Take the 9/11 terrorist attacks for example. Even though we cannot deny the existence of such an abhorrent event existing within the extremities of our universe, does it still qualify as a 'naturally occurring' event?

You're basically asking whether human actions are encompassed in the term "natural." This is semantics. Considering that any decent dictionary's entry on "natural" covers half a page, there's no real answer.

 

If you ask me, I say absolutely. Everything is natural as long as it isn't "supernatural" (which means that everything is natural, since supernatural = hokum). This is also helpful in justifying the store-bought chocolate chip cookies I just ate. They're just as natural as the carrot I left in the refridgerator!

[severxsever]

It never ceases to amaze me just how gullible, irrational, and naive your averge gaming-board-goer is.

[jaguars4ever]

Observation: It seems that we have succeeded in shifting the focus of debate from bigotry to philosophy. B)

[Nartwak]

This is also helpful in justifying the store-bought chocolate chip cookies I just ate. They're just as natural as the carrot I left in the refridgerator!

It's just fuel for a meat machine. Your warranty is void anyways.

[Gorth]

This is also helpful in justifying the store-bought chocolate chip cookies I just ate. They're just as natural as the carrot I left in the refridgerator!

It's just fuel for a meat machine. Your warranty is void anyways.

Imagine the following dialogue down in the candy store...

 

Chocolate: "Oh no, please spare us, you can't do this to us, it's unnatural !!!"

 

Gorth: "Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated..."

 

[jaguars4ever]

Chocolate: "Oh no, please spare us, you can't do this to us, it's unnatural !!!"

And here I thought that choco chips weren't perfected until they were ingested.

[Nartwak]

Imagine the following dialogue down in the candy store...

 

Chocolate: "Oh no, please spare us, you can't do this to us, it's unnatural !!!"

 

Gorth: "Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated..."

Hey, that's what they get for being lower on the food chain.

 

They'd eat you, if they could... :ph34r:

 

[Jarx Xun]

Just because you don't agree with a homosexual lifestyle doesn't make you a biggot... It's the way you express it that makes you a biggot. For example I don't fully agree with homosexuality just as some people don't agree with the use of recreational drugs or with other religions. But I don't go around calling it unnatural or stupid or wrong. I hate it whenever someone disagrees with homosexuality they are automatically labelled a biggot. (Though in Craftsman's case this may be true)

[jaguars4ever]

(Though in Craftsman's case this may be true)

That's what we're talking about, mate.

[nightcleaver]

I'm confused about your point. You're saying that if an animal kills another of its species then it's due to human interference?

That would very likely be 'natural selection', ceteris paribus. What I am referring to would be one of your earlier examples of human intervention.

 

E.g. 'Murder' Take the 9/11 terrorist attacks for example. Even though we cannot deny the existence of such an abhorrent event existing within the extremities of our universe, does it still qualify as a 'naturally occurring' event?

To be honest, I am a little taken aback by it when I hear about other people's sex lives, especially when it's something I don't understand. I was reading an Ursula K. LeGuin book a couple years ago, and it had lesbian characters in it. I didn't want to face that they were lesbian, but I found their relationship itself interesting and not disgusting at all. Please, PLEASE don't call me prejudiced - I'm probably one of the more volatilly-inclined gay rights defenders I've known of. Still, I don't want to think of other peoples sex lives, and I see in no way how that's wrong.

 

Still, it seems these other's refuse to see it in that light.

 

 

I think, and I'm sure you understand this on some level, when these two are saying "natural" and "unnatural," they're referring to the "choice" that's made to commit these acts.

 

But let me give you a situation.

You're drowning. Someone comes to help you, but you're confused and panicking; totally understandable. You do something that gets you out of the water; coincidentally, but totally to your later horror, you find that you caused the death of the person that saved you. That person, meanwhile, had no idea you were drowning; (let's just stick with concept here) Or perhaps you die as well; but that was your CHOICE. Let me put it this way: on a daily basis, people are reacting to their view of the world. No better, usually no worse.

Really, the problem is that they refuse to understand the concept of another being seeing things from a different perspective. Prejudice, naivete, Nazi-ness, whatever the heck you want to call it, it's not really important; what's important is that they refuse to understand their own limited place in the world.

However, I don't think this means we all have to be the drowning man to understand him. I don't think we need to have sympathy for our enemies, just empathy; sympathy is going too far, I think. *I* would define *that* as unnatural, maybe for similar reasons. I find that you're lying to yourself, when you place yourself in a hypothetical position that you have no personal experience with. Much as they probably think gays are lying to themselves, which is a totally unsupportable claim. They take that claim on faith, though; but why not take it on faith in a way that's not offensive? The world will never know.

 

As for craftsman's arguments... well, there's no point in addressing them. He argues and trips over his own tongue. Does that have anything to do with his intelligence? not really, though he certainly isn't giving us an intelligent presentation of himself.

[Maria Caliban]

Regarding Chocolate: It's more natural to eat chocolate than it is to eat a carrot. During the majority of human evolution sweetness could only be found in fruits so the human brain developed a preference for sweets. Likewise, humans have a desire for fatty foods because they were scarce before the domestication of animals.

 

That natural preference is biologically inappropriate during the modern era but it's still natural.

[Maria Caliban]

Nightclever:

"To be honest, I am a little taken aback by it when I hear about other people's sex lives, especially when it's something I don't understand."

 

I'm rarely taken back and I haven't met a sexual peccadillo yet that I didn't understand. Men, women, dogs, furniture, leather, stuffed animals, or sensory deprivation, desire is desire. I might not have the same response but that's beside the question. My stepfather likes his steak well done and I like mine rare but I still understand why he likes it that way. People love beer and coffee, two substances that taste horrid to me, but I still understand why they drink them.

 

"Please, PLEASE don't call me prejudiced - I'm probably one of the more volatilly-inclined gay rights defenders I've known of. "

 

You can defend gay rights and still be prejudiced. I know an openly gay man who's prejudiced against gay men. One really has little to do with the other.

 

"Still, I don't want to think of other peoples sex lives, and I see in no way how that's wrong."

 

That's not germane to the earlier topic; I don't think anyone is advocating having a character go into detail about their sexual experiences. Now, if you're saying that just knowing someone's sexuality bothers you then I feel for you but I don't think it's fair to suggest people keep that information to themselves. I mean, even a wedding ring gives it away.

 

" I find that you're lying to yourself, when you place yourself in a hypothetical position that you have no personal experience with."

 

To a certain degree, all experiences are universal because there are only a finite number of human emotions and sensations. I might not know what it is to lose my mother but I can hazard a guess. I don't know what it is to skydive but I've been in a car accident (intense adrenaline rush) and I've ridden a roller-coaster (euphoria caused by fearful but controlled situation). If I mix that with the physical sensation of cool wind whipping my face and dropping then I have a good idea of what it feel like. Not perfect, but good. As long as I don't try to convince myself that it's *exactly* what it feels like then I'm not lying to myself.

[Craftsman]

Whats a biggot?

 

i dont have my codebook with me

[Gorth]

Whats a biggot?

 

i dont have my codebook with me 

An alternative way of spelling bigot

 

bigot n. obstinate believer who is intolerant of others.  bigoted adj. bigotry n. [French]

 

Thats just until maria gets to him with Spelmar...

 

Her big spiky Spelmar... :ph34r:

[Craftsman]

So jsut when is the line drawn? Do humans keep on doing what they DESIRE? You people seem to go by the motto 'If it feels good do it'