What is the point of atheism? (Major Spoilers)

[aria4president]

What is the point of atheism in this game besides making Xoti mad a few times? I understand that atheism in this world is not the same as ours. Their atheist's believe the Gods are jerks and we should do away with them. 

ok, great. So what? Why even include it in this game? I thought there was going to be a badass ending in POE1 where you absorb the souls and become a god yourself and smite the other gods (like age of decadence). But no, no matter how atheist my character is, no matter how much I piss off my party members by bad talking the gods, at the end of the day my character is an errand boy to the gods. That or you end the world.  

I really thought that with the revelation about the Gods being created through absorbing kith souls, it was setting up a scenario where we absorb the souls and become a god, just as Engwithans sacrificed souls to make themselves the Gods. I thought that would be an option. I really thought that the game would let you take vengeance on these JERKS (all the gods are jerks, every single one and they all deserve to be smitten) Nope. Options are: do you want to do this God's errand, this God's errand, or end the world completely. 

[omgFIREBALLS]

10 hours ago, aria4president said:

I understand that atheism in this world is not the same as ours. Their atheist's believe the Gods are jerks and we should do away with them. 

Where have you seen this?

Iovara's movement was about the gods being fakes, not about their attitudes. Besides, I am sure there's an actual word for wanting to get rid of gods that doesn't need to be a kind of not believing in them. Anyway, you realize like 99.9% of the world has no hard evidence that the gods are fake. And the majority of those that do are probably due some "mysterious circumstances" from the Leaden Key or the Hand Occult. On another note, why would people generally entertain the thought when priests in Eora have, you know, distinct magical powers. Related joke.

10 hours ago, aria4president said:

I really thought that with the revelation about the Gods being created through absorbing kith souls, it was setting up a scenario where we absorb the souls and become a god, just as Engwithans sacrificed souls to make themselves the Gods.

Not how I understand what happened. Each god is a congregation of souls, not a single mind empowered by the absorption of other souls. There wasn't an Engwithan individual they decided would become Hylea, but they did decide there would be a Hylea and that she would prize life. I'm imagining she is the product of a number of souls that shared these values, or perhaps they even took that specific part from a soul and put it into Hylea, whereas another part from the same soul that valued diligence went into Abydon.

Mandatory reminder: WE REALLY DIDN'T NEED RYMRGAND.

So, could you absorb souls and become a "god"? Maybe - but it's not what the Engwithans did.

10 hours ago, aria4president said:

What is the point of atheism in this game besides making Xoti mad a few times?

Getting back to this, I don't think there is much point to denouncing the gods. Yes, you are correct, but people have little reason to believe you, and there are at least two pseudogod-empowered organizations who would take a keen interest in thwarting your efforts if you tried to enlighten the world like Iovara did.

[aria4president]

10 hours ago, omgFIREBALLS said:

Where have you seen this?

Iovara's movement was about the gods being fakes, not about their attitudes. Besides, I am sure there's an actual word for wanting to get rid of gods that doesn't need to be a kind of not believing in them. Anyway, you realize like 99.9% of the world has no hard evidence that the gods are fake. And the majority of those that do are probably due some "mysterious circumstances" from the Leaden Key or the Hand Occult. On another note, why would people generally entertain the thought when priests in Eora have, you know, distinct magical powers. Related joke.

Ok so throughout both games, every single "atheist" comment that the PC makes, it's basically denouncing and insulting the Gods, not insisting they don't exist. Whenever the "atheism" icon shows up for Xoti or Eder, it's because I either insulted them or insisted that we don't need them. My PC never insists they don't exist. Obviously "gods" exist in this world. I mean he literally talks to them. Same thing with Aloth. I get the feeling that he is also atheist, since he obviously understands that they exist, but doesn't worship or think people needs them. 

I specifically said in the beginning "atheism in this world is not the same as ours. Their atheist's believe the Gods are jerks and we should do away with them" which is how the atheist replies in this game always are. 

As for the other part you are correct. I thought the skeletons in the machine Eothas was punching were Kith but they were artificial constructs built and jammed with souls. 

Still though, I think an ending where you absorb the souls would have been really cool. 

 

[Boeroer]

3 hours ago, aria4president said:

I think an ending where you absorb the souls would have been really cool. 

I don't. That would be the same as usual (in fantasy CRPGs) and feels a bit like an appeal to everybody's secret delusions of grandeur. That was cool when it happened with Ultima IX or Throne of Bhaal or something back then. I was much younger and liked that "I'm so special" treatment. But I don't read the kinds of books nowadays that I read back then. I don't watch the same kinds of movies anymore. I grew old.  

I actually found it kind of refreshing to have a somewhat surprising yet anticlimactic ending and not the typical "you're important and you get it all" stuff. I mean if it would have been one of many possible outcomes: fine with me. But as the most probable "default" ending? Nah... I suspect Josh Sawyer (who is about my age) felt the same and that's why we have that unusual ending. Maybe it's just not satisfying for younger audiences in general - or audiences who still feel young and/or like nostalgia and being reminded of games they played a long time ago - no idea. 

But on the other hand: the ending is a massive cliffhanger. PoE3 could easily lead to an outcome that you hoped for. One can see that it's just an opener for a thick metaphysical and political plot for another sequel. Unfortunately Deadfire sold so poorly at release and in the first year that a PoE3 was off the table for the longest time.

But yesterday I learned from Josh (on Twitter) that Deadfire makes a profit since last year (and continues to do so - it's on sale with a bundle currently, 75% off). So maybe... maybe you might get your "ascension" to godhood, who knows?   

Edited May 12, 2021 by Boeroer

[dukeisaac]

4 hours ago, Boeroer said:

But yesterday I learned from Josh (on Twitter) that Deadfire makes a profit since last year (and continues to do so - it's on sale with a bundle currently, 75% off). So maybe... maybe you might get your "ascension" to godhood, who knows?   

Very happy to hear this ! I knew that crpgs had a long tail for sales, but its good to know that its finally making a profit.

[omgFIREBALLS]

13 hours ago, aria4president said:

Ok so throughout both games, every single "atheist" comment that the PC makes, it's basically denouncing and insulting the Gods, not insisting they don't exist.

Ah, okay. I always play with mercs so I've never noticed this

[aria4president]

13 hours ago, Boeroer said:

That would be the same as usual (in fantasy CRPGs) and feels a bit like an appeal to everybody's secret delusions of grandeur. That was cool when it happened with Ultima IX or Throne of Bhaal or something back then. I was much younger and liked that "I'm so special" treatment. But I don't read the kinds of books nowadays that I read back then. I don't watch the same kinds of movies anymore. I grew old.

These games are like the most generic fantasy RPG's I've played in a while, which is why I sought out and purchased these games. I bought this game for the same reason I purchased Pathfinder: Kingmaker and NWN: it's a generic fantasy RPG where I can role play as a grumpy wizard. Also, just because you like the same things as you did when younger, doesn't make you immature as your comment implies.

13 hours ago, Boeroer said:

But as the most probable "default" ending?

I never once implied this. I simply stated that with all the narrative beats, with all the dialogue options available, that an atheist ending would have been possible. Maybe you have to do a bunch of side quests first, like finding a new Godseed and building a replacement body. For God's sake the PC is a reincarnation of someone who was tortured and killed for her atheism. 

13 hours ago, Boeroer said:

Maybe it's just not satisfying for younger audiences in general - or audiences who still feel young and/or like nostalgia and being reminded of games they played a long time ago - no idea.

Can you list me some of these games I supposedly played in the past with such themes? I can't think of a single one. I spent my childhood playing Gran Turismo because it was the only game we could afford in Iran.

Edited May 13, 2021 by aria4president
Too wordy. Also removed what might be seen as an insult.

[Boeroer]

6 hours ago, aria4president said:

Also, just because you like the same things as you did when younger, doesn't make you immature as your comment implies.

I don't think that it implies that. But anyway:  I didn't say that nor did I mean that. "Immature" has a negative connotation but boing young is just... being young. Being young is cool.  But I guess we can agree that younger people - generally speaking - like different things than older ones. Just generally speaking. I really liked Throne of Bhaal etc. a lot.  

6 hours ago, aria4president said:

I never once implied this.

Didn't say you did. I just wanted to make it clear that I wouldn't be against it if it were an option - but wouldn't want it as a default ending. 

6 hours ago, aria4president said:

Can you list me some of these games I supposedly played in the past with such themes? I can't think of a single one. I spent my childhood playing Gran Turismo because it was the only game we could afford in Iran.

No. I didn't say nor meant that you specifically did that. I just speculated - based on personal experience -  that age or nostalgia may be a reason some people like those endings better. And why I personally don't long for such endings anymore (because older now). 

You must not take what I wrote as offense. I wasn't meant that way. I was just engaging in armchair reasoning. If you don't agree with what I speculated that's no problem.    

[Belsirk]

 

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What is the point of atheism in this game besides making Xoti mad a few times? I understand that atheism in this world is not the same as ours. Their atheist's believe the Gods are jerks and we should do away with them. 

On the second part? Probably to represent how useless it would be for the Watcher to try to revive Iovara's apostasy movement. All the time I tried this approach, most of the NPC just treats him as a crazy watcher saying lies. Only the companions from the first game reacted differently. The gods truly won their battle against the Apostasy. At the time of Iovara? Probably was the bigger menace for the gods objectives.

Quote

ok, great. So what? Why even include it in this game? I thought there was going to be a badass ending in POE1 where you absorb the souls and become a god yourself and smite the other gods (like age of decadence).

A good way to consider the use of the souls. However, the game gives some indications why that would not be possible:
1. The gods were not a powerful soul that absorbed all the others, but a fuse of the souls chained to one ideology.
2. Thaos only stole a single generation from Dyrwood, a small country.  While each  one of the gods were created from full nations. There was enough power for Woedica to break the balance, but not more.
3. The watcher with a single soul awakened was becoming crazy. Now with a thousand of souls probably it would be much worse (This is debatable, after all you can fuse a small amount of souls into you at some point). The watcher with a single soul only because it was awakening was becoming crazy. Now with a thousand of souls probably it would be much worse (This is debatable, after all you can fuse a small amount of souls into you at some point of the first game).

Edited June 14, 2021 by Belsirk