Cipher Echo build?

[Andres Arigon]

Hi

Why does the Cipher has support skills (echo)? I've never seen any Cipher support build or a Cipher build around the echo spells. Is it a thing? or these echo skills are there for multi class builds?

 

[abot]

Well, yes, apart Psychovampiric Shield most of them need some party member to target, so do not work with mage summons, they go well with e.g. chanter/priest/ranger with summons you can command so going solo you probably better multiclass

[The Berathian]

Echo skills might be the cipher's most powerful and most useful abilities. Valorous Echos makes the first island much easier, and remains useful throughout the game. If you multiclass with a ghost heart ranger, you get a perfect summon for echocasting. Most echo spells are about as subtle as the b in subtle, and it is easy to gloss over them. They act as a sort of force multiplier that makes you and your party better. Echoing Shield is amazing, but I never see anybody talk about it. It just doesn't get mentioned. Amplified Wave might be my favourite spell, but it takes some preparation to make it effective. And while a little quirky, I love Amplified Thrust. Early on, it is a lifesaver of you cast it on your tank. While the pierce damage can be resisted sometimes, the shove remains useful. 

A lot of people dismiss these abilities, and I don't know why. 

[Boeroer]

Because other cipher powers are better.  

[The Berathian]

17 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

Because other cipher powers are better.  

I find myself in disagreement. Creative use of certain spells in the right situations makes them powerful. In a general sense, I'm inclined to agree. Sometimes, using brute force is better than being clever. Other times, being clever is far more satisfying. Echo skills are, to the cipher, what chants and invocations are to the chanter. They make the party better and provide useful ancillary effects that make the game easier. Useless for soloing, mostly. 

Valorous Echos remains one of the best low level picks though. I'll stand by that statement. Does it help the cipher? No, it does not. Does it help your party? Yes, yes it does. I would even go so far as to suggest that it is the most damaging spell that a cipher can pick at level 1. 

[Bosmer]

10 hours ago, The Berathian said:

Valorous Echos remains one of the best low level picks though. I'll stand by that statement. Does it help the cipher? No, it does not. Does it help your party? Yes, yes it does. I would even go so far as to suggest that it is the most damaging spell that a cipher can pick at level 1. 

In my opinion that's whisper of treason.. and even whisper of treason gets respecced later on for ringleader or puppet master. I see how valorous echos is nice in the first few levels, but later on there should be better and/or AoE - buffs around.

Another thing is that shred spells heavily benefit from 1000 cuts on SC ciphers. And for soulblades shred spells are cheaper.

[Boeroer]

3 hours ago, Bosmer said:

In my opinion that's whisper of treason.

I agree. Unless you face imps in the early game I don't know how Valorous Echoes may be more impactful than Whisper of Treason. And iirc there's no encounter in the early game with only imps.

Strong and Insightful are nice to have, but if you are in a party anyway Valorous Echoes is inferior to casting Holy Power + Blessing: lasts as long/longer and can cover the whole party. And since early game encounters aren't long the big advantage of a Cipher (that he could recast Valorous Echoes over and over again) does not make an impact.

Whisper of Treason on the other hand turns most encounters from hard into easy for me. If you manage to charm one or more gorecci str. thugs there's so much less heat on your own characters. Charm the drake at the digsite: enemies fall apart. It's like taking away an enemy from the battlefield and replacing it with a summon.
If you have a guy with a club modal in the party (as I do when I plan to use Whisper of Treason) it's easy to not miss with it, too. If you even have a Wizard with Miasma who hits after the club: usually you'll crit with WoT then - even the tough nuts (not imps though). Lingering Echoes + crit = a very long charm duration for the early game. You can charm several enemies before the first one flips back again.
Finally if you're a Beguiler it's very cheap (5 instead for 10 focus - only if you don't miss with it though). 

I don't say that Valorous Echoes can't be good. But what was said above may explain why few players talk about it. 

I personally would even pick Soul Shock over Valorous Echoes. It's very helpful against certain enemies with high AR against slash/crush/pierce.
I also would pick Soul Shock over Amplified Thrust most of times I think. If you hit two enemies it's already better dmg and I like shock dmg a lot more than pirece dmg. The short casting time + push effect are very nice to remove engaging enemies from party members though.

Other echo spells are very popular: Ectopsychic Echo, Pain Block, Amplified Wave and Ancestor's Memory get mentioned a lot. So if you wanted to do an "echo only build" (no idea why because there's no specialization like with Wizards and also no synergistic mechanics with echo spells) you could totally create a viable character. 

But I can't agree to the statement "Echo skills might be the cipher's most powerful and most useful abilities". Because for me that's a cipher's mind control abilites. Not that echo spells can't be awesome of course. 

Edited May 10, 2021 by Boeroer