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Hi guys,

first of all, I wish to thank all of you, who regurarly post helpful comments.

Now I need just an opinion. What multiclass would you roll with Devoted fighter with quarterstaff? I'm thinking of Devoted/Monk or Devoted/Paladin. Or maybe even Monk/Paladin if I would drop the +2 PEN. Is it worth it? And what stats should be prioritized considering this to be RTwP build?

Thank you for tips. ūüôā

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Are you looking to play solo or in a party?

Is your endgame to use the Chromoprismatic staff?

Short story: everything you mentioned is viable in a party :). If you're looking for synergy or for potential solo play, I would argue that Battlemage is potentially your best multiclass.

Long story: The Chromoprismatic is available quite late on a typical playthrough but you can work around that. There arent really a lot of nice early/mid game Quarterstaves besides the PL1 spell Concelhaut Parasitic Staff which would be pretty nice with a Devoted (getting a secondary healing option on-hit to stay alive early). Then, the elemental PL bonuses from Chromoprismatic (when you get it) would also benefit your Wizard spells and then you could also have fun with Llengrath's Warding Staff. And Clear Out from Devoted can be fun with all of those! If you don't want to be a Wizard, know that your Devoted bonuses will also apply to your fists so hello, Transcendent Suffering or Monastic Unarmed Training with anyone else. Fists will arguably be your best weapon until you get Chromoprismatic unless you are a Wizard.

Edited by Not So Clever Hound
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That was quick. ūüôā Thank you. I was actually aiming for party run and definitely chromoprismatic at the end. I wasn't mentioning wizard simply because I've just finished a playthrough with Citzal's Spirit Lance Battlemage. Thought I would give quarterstaves a go, but I wasn't sure how well would that guy work. Anyway, I'm pretty sure Fighter/Monk would dish out the most damage, but I'm kinda wondering what Fighter/Paladin might do in terms of damage. And do you guys have any experince with Devoted/Druid Firebrand potential? Worth it? I'm just tossing this one in the open, just out of curiosity.

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If I was going with a devoted battlemage, I'd probably pick estocs, particularly if you're playing on PotD. They have great PEN, and there are fantastic estocs available, from beginning to end of the game. And you could also pick monastic unarmed training for the pierce immune foes.

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26 minutes ago, Haplok said:

The options are viable. As is Battlemage.... or Sage!

I would just suggest NOT to go Devoted/Paladin. Since that's just defensive overkill, while a nerf offensively.

That just answered the paladin dilemma I guess. ūüėÜ Even though I'm not sure why would it be that much of a nerf. I thought that Bleak Walkers are ok, DPS wise.

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Devoted/Monk is a good combo imo. Swift Flurry + Hearbeat Drumming can be cool with Disciplined Strikes and the Chromoprismatic Staff (5 consecutive hits - sometimes possible with only one attack), Thunderous Blows stacks with the Devoted's PEN bons, the quarterstaff modal stacks with Vigorous Defense and fits nicely with Crucible of Suffering, cone attacks with Clear Out and Raisen Torment and so on.

Devoted/Paladin: I don't think they are offensively nerfed. FoD crits as Devoted are quite good as you very often combine the higher crit dmg of the Devoted with an overpenetration bonus - and landing crits it rel. easy with Ring of Focused Flame (+10 ACC) + FoD (+10 ACC) and Disciplined Strikes (25% conversion). 

Devoted/Wizard was mentioned above (good).
I also like Stell Garrote/Bloodmage. Like all Arcane Knights: top notch defensively. The life drain of the Steel Garrote stacks with the one from Concelhaut's Parasitic Staff - which is cool. If you also have an SC Furyshaper with Blood Ward in the party and a Chanter with Old Siec (they all stack) you will be the uberdrainer. ;)

Devoted with quarterstaff has one problem: can't use Monastic Unarmed Training or Transcendent Sufferring (as Devoted/Monk) as crush backup. Quarterstaffs already deal crush dmg. And there are none that deal other dmg. I case you meet crush immune foes you have to live with a -10 ACC malus. But that's not too bad imo.

   

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Frankly in terms of martial damage, a multiclass NEEDS either monk or rogue to be competitive. 

Somewhere in the middle there are multiclasses with cipher, barbarian or ranger, which slightly boost martial output - but not enough to shine IMO.

And then there are meatwalls, such as Paladins, Fighters, Chanters and other casters. Chanters (and other casters) at least bring the versatility and utility of their spell lists, sometimes also significantly boosting martial output (say with stuff like Citzal's Lance + Zandethu's Draconic Fury). Fighters bring a solid battlefield control kit trough Engagements and can be temporarily nearly unkillable (with Unbending), while Paladins have great AR and can support the healing, counter debuffing and even boost party damage vs enemies.

But combining 2 of "meatwall" types of characters is a pretty terrible idea in my book. Better to split those into 2 multiclasses: like a Fighter with rogue/monk/wizard and a Paladin with chanter/wizard. That way at least one of them will have good battlefield control and damage, while the other will have great support and utility.

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1 hour ago, Haplok said:

Frankly in terms of martial damage, a multiclass NEEDS either monk or rogue to be competitive. 

Somewhere in the middle there are multiclasses with cipher, barbarian or ranger, which slightly boost martial output - but not enough to shine IMO.

And then there are meatwalls, such as Paladins, Fighters, Chanters and other casters. Chanters (and other casters) at least bring the versatility and utility of their spell lists, sometimes also significantly boosting martial output (say with stuff like Citzal's Lance + Zandethu's Draconic Fury). Fighters bring a solid battlefield control kit trough Engagements and can be temporarily nearly unkillable (with Unbending), while Paladins have great AR and can support the healing, counter debuffing and even boost party damage vs enemies.

But combining 2 of "meatwall" types of characters is a pretty terrible idea in my book. Better to split those into 2 multiclasses: like a Fighter with rogue/monk/wizard and a Paladin with chanter/wizard. That way at least one of them will have good battlefield control and damage, while the other will have great support and utility.



I wrote above why Devoted/Paladin specifically can have a good dmg output. The point still stands. But I can go into more detail to make the point more clear:

A Fighter can deal good - and more importantly reliable - dmg.
Paladin with FoD + Ring of Focused Flames, too. You can combine both.

Once you get Clear Out the martial damage ouput of the Fighter side will be great: it's rel. cheap, has a big AoE component and hits the initial target twice(!) which makes it even good against single targets. It's good with Chromopr. Staff, too - because you only need three attacks to trigger the AoE (instead of 5). Also: Eternal Devotion adds 10% lash on top. Nice. 

At the same time a Fighter/Paladin can survive their own Sacred Immolation quite easily which adds significant damage output. Should he go down there's multiple ways to get back up again - even stronger. Turning the "meat" into dmg. 

The combined +10 ACC from Disciplined Barrage and Zealous Focus (+5 PER and +5 ACC) and the +20 ACC from FoD translates to damage output that you won't always see in the indiviual hit numbers. The multiple graze-to-hit conversions do the same. Those are more like "hidden" damage bonuses because they don't lead to high numbers but consistently above-average numbers. Armored Grace and Mob Stance add have a significant influence on attack speed which directly translates to dmg output.
So on average the dmg output will not be that far off from other martial combos - because your hit quality, attack speed and PEN will be great.
If you picked a Bleak Walker you could even wear the Helm of the WHite Void and do your FoDs with +40 ACC I guess. That's great accuracy for a 1-Zeal attack. And you can get back zeal by killing enemies, too. 

At the same time you will be hard to kill even if you put most ability points into offensive abilities. And if you don't: you can achieve great defenses and encompassing resistances to every affliction with very few ability points. Dead or disabled characters don't deal damage. As a party you also spare action time that you would otherwise have to use for CC, countering afflictions and healing to babysit your more potent but more squishy damage dealer. This can also translate to more dmg outpout - if not from the Paladin/Fighter himself then from the party. 

It's not that easy to evaluate the offensive impact of a class. It's not like you could watch at the bare dmg bonuses and conclude this character will lead your party to more dmg output. As always it depends. 

Paladin/Devoted can be build into a good offensive character. Maybe he will take a bit more time to kill stuff - but he will finish the job very reliably and can also crack the really tough nuts. Maybe he's not rushing from squishy-kill to squishy-kill like a Monk/Rogue would do but often that's only cool but not necessary ("winning more").

Besides that one of the highest (non-cheese) weapon dmg output you can do is with Cipher/Ranger + Frostseeker - so I dare to question your simplified assement of which classes will boost martial output the most and which won't (sorry :)). In TB mode you might have some more points. But as OP said it's a RTwP build.
So it's not all about dmg bonuses, it's also about PEN, speed and hit quality. And also a bit about not going down too soon.

I'll give you that Paladin/Fighters can be quite boring to play though - at least until you reach the higher levels. So myabe some won't like that for MCs. On the other hand for AI-controlled party members this can be a blessing.

I have to say that Paladin/Fighter is not really a preferred class combo of mine. I'm mostly playing devil's advocat here to give a more fair review of Paladin/Fighter as offensive option.   
 

Edited by Boeroer

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22 minutes ago, Rev7718 said:

Thank you all for your contribution. I has been a tremendous help. Anyway, I suggest that none of you guys think any Firebrand build is worth considering, right?

Not really worth it if you want it to be your main weapon and if you wish to do melee dmg mostly (no matter if Devoted or not) imo. As backup weapon it's great if you use the scroll I guess. But I don't like using scrolls so I'm not an expert on that matter.

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1 hour ago, Boeroer said:



I wrote above why Devoted/Paladin specifically can have a good dmg output. The point still stands. But I can go into more detail to make the point more clear:

A Fighter can deal good - and more importantly reliable - dmg.
Paladin with FoD + Ring of Focused Flames, too. You can combine both.

Once you get Clear Out the martial damage ouput of the Fighter side will be great: it's rel. cheap, has a big AoE component and hits the initial target twice(!) which makes it even good against single targets. It's good with Chromopr. Staff, too - because you only need three attacks to trigger the AoE (instead of 5). Also: Eternal Devotion adds 10% lash on top. Nice. 

At the same time a Fighter/Paladin can survive their own Sacred Immolation quite easily which adds significant damage output. Should he go down there's multiple ways to get back up again - even stronger. Turning the "meat" into dmg. 

The combined +10 ACC from Disciplined Barrage and Zealous Focus (+5 PER and +5 ACC) and the +20 ACC from FoD translates to damage output that you won't always see in the indiviual hit numbers. The multiple graze-to-hit conversions do the same. Those are more like "hidden" damage bonuses because they don't lead to high numbers but consistently above-average numbers. Armored Grace and Mob Stance add have a significant influence on attack speed which directly translates to dmg output.
So on average the dmg output will not be that far off from other martial combos - because your hit quality, attack speed and PEN will be great.
If you picked a Bleak Walker you could even wear the Helm of the WHite Void and do your FoDs with +40 ACC I guess. That's great accuracy for a 1-Zeal attack. And you can get back zeal by killing enemies, too. 

At the same time you will be hard to kill even if you put most ability points into offensive abilities. And if you don't: you can achieve great defenses and encompassing resistances to every affliction with very few ability points. Dead or disabled characters don't deal damage. As a party you also spare action time that you would otherwise have to use for CC, countering afflictions and healing to babysit your more potent but more squishy damage dealer. This can also translate to more dmg outpout - if not from the Paladin/Fighter himself then from the party. 

It's not that easy to evaluate the offensive impact of a class. It's not like you could watch at the bare dmg bonuses and conclude this character will lead your party to more dmg output. As always it depends. 

Paladin/Devoted can be build into a good offensive character. Maybe he will take a bit more time to kill stuff - but he will finish the job very reliably and can also crack the really tough nuts. Maybe he's not rushing from squishy-kill to squishy-kill like a Monk/Rogue would do but often that's only cool but not necessary ("winning more").

Besides that one of the highest (non-cheese) weapon dmg output you can do is with Cipher/Ranger + Frostseeker - so I dare to question your simplified assement of which classes will boost martial output the most and which won't. At least in RTwP. In TB mode you might have some more points. But as OP said it's a RTwP build.
So it's not all about dmg bonuses, it's also about PEN, speed and hit quality. And also a bit about not going down too soon.

I'll give you that Paladin/Fighters can be quite boring to play though - at least until you reach the higher levels. So myabe some won't like that for MCs. On the other hand for AI-controlled party members this can be a blessing.

I have to say that Paladin/Fighter is not really a preferred class combo of mine. I'm mostly playing devil's advocat here to give a more fair review of Paladin/Fighter as offensive option.   
 

Reliable - yes. Impressive - no. Furthermore, both classes need to burn resources to be even remotely competitive. Meanwhile rogues (with sneak attacks and Deathblows... not to mention Streetfighter bonuses) and monks (with Swift Flurry/HB Drumming) will still basically outdamage them passively - but can also use active abilities to really put them to shame (and monks can easily spam Stunning Surge full attacks all day; Wounds are a regenerating resource also).

Paladins can regen resources, but the chances are pretty low (25%?). Clear Out can be really cool, but it targets Fortitude, so typically you'd need to debuff many enemies for it to be really effective.

Sacred Immolation could be interesting, but: 1. its end game 2. its turning a super-tanky character to living "on the edge". Not sure everyone would love that.

Edited by Haplok
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I was more addressing the "terrible idea" in your post, not that other class combos can do more dps (at least until they get knocked over, hehe).

I don't think Crusader is a terrible at all. It may not be very exciting in most cases but def. not terrible. Especially not for beginners. I think Crusader is a good pick for a beginner if you really want to roll a Devoted multiclass. Somehow Devoted is very popular among new players (while Black Jacket es extremely unpolular). I guess most players initially dislike the idea of switching weapons but rather like to "marry" themselves to a certain weapon. Fantasy tropes and all that. ;)

On the other hand Devoted isn't that impactful on the lower difficulties anyway (which would be difficulties a beginner might choose)... eh I've run into an argumentative dilemma...¬†ūü§Ē¬†ūüėĄ¬†
 

 

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3 minutes ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

I haven't played it much in either RTwP or TB but you got me curious :) could you possibly elaborate a bit on this?

In TB a Black Jacket can switch weapon sets as a free action - which means he can attack with the most offensive weapon setup and then afterwards freely switch to the most defensive one to await the attacks of enemies.

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35 minutes ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

I haven't played it much in either RTwP or TB but you got me curious :) could you possibly elaborate a bit on this?

Well, their weapon switch is a Free Action and since you could collect a nice arsenal, with pearls like Kitchen Stove with its Thunderous Report, Whispers aoe or Run Trough attacks and several other weapons with mighty per encounter abilities, it can be very strong. Even moreso if you combine it with an Assassin and spam those special abilities under stealth (also Free Action) with +25 Accuracy, +4 Pen and +50% Crit damage (and possibly backstab). 

Also, you can freely switch between an offensive setup and sword & shield to be well protected before the enemies move and attack... and next round you ditch the shield to attack and then re-equip it again...

 

Edited by Haplok
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By the way I just rolled a Devoted/Bleak Walker with the Chromoprismatic Staff and did a 170-dmg crit with FoD, followed by a 204-dmg Clear Out, nearly two-shotting the dummy I was attacking before I could even finish the 5 consecutive hits. :)

The Helm of the White Void did not work on the FoD attack itself, but with Helm of the Falcon, Devil of Caroc and Abraham as well other shenanigans I get to a recovery time of only 2.5 secs (from 4) which is cool. FoD accuracy was 134 in my case. Clear Out had 114. 

That's better than I expected tbh. :)

I use the community patch which moderately addresses some of the Paladin's and Fighter's subpar abilites though. So grain of salt and all that. 

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1 hour ago, Boeroer said:

By the way I just rolled a Devoted/Bleak Walker with the Chromoprismatic Staff and did a 170-dmg crit with FoD, followed by a 204-dmg Clear Out, nearly two-shotting the dummy I was attacking before I could even finish the 5 consecutive hits. :)

The Helm of the White Void did not work on the FoD attack itself, but with Helm of the Falcon, Devil of Caroc and Abraham as well other shenanigans I get to a recovery time of only 2.5 secs (from 4) which is cool. FoD accuracy was 134 in my case. Clear Out had 114. 

That's better than I expected tbh. :)

I use the community patch which moderately addresses some of the Paladin's and Fighter's subpar abilites though. So grain of salt and all that. 

What stats did you roll for that kind of a hit dude? ūüėÜ

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21 minutes ago, Rev7718 said:

What stats did you roll for that kind of a hit dude? ūüėÜ

Nothing special. I used the ones of the Berserker/Skald who was the MC in that savegame and whom I turned into a Devoted/Bleak Walker with the console. 

But FoD gets massive PL bonuses at high levels (those are multiplicative) I already had 14 PEN on the staff without PL scaling and Scion of Flame, so 15 + PL scaling (I guess another +2). Then it was a crit and Devoted + Improved Critical + Overpenetration + Inspired Beacon + Sworn Enemy + Weapon Spec + Weapon Mastery + Two Handed Style + Chromo's dmg bonus via Metaphysics skill + FoD's double lash + the Chromo's lashes leads to such numbers. It's not even tricky to achieve: sneak to enemies and cast Inspired Beacon from stealth: no recovery because out of stealth. Then Sworn Enemy (no recovery anyway). Then Eternal Devotion which really profits from the PL scaling and the lahes, followed by Clear Out (it hits the initial target twice which leads to such high numbers, the individual rolls were about 100 each).

It's not really micro-intense besides the Inspired Beacon part which could be left aside (but it's a nice setup for other party members).

I didn't even use Retribution! ;) But I had Infamous Captain which adds +5% - so that balances it out a bit I guess. 

Might was 17. So nothing wild.

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1 hour ago, Boeroer said:

Nothing special. I used the ones of the Berserker/Skald who was the MC in that savegame and whom I turned into a Devoted/Bleak Walker with the console. 

But FoD gets massive PL bonuses at high levels (those are multiplicative) I already had 14 PEN on the staff without PL scaling and Scion of Flame, so 15 + PL scaling (I guess another +2). Then it was a crit and Devoted + Improved Critical + Overpenetration + Inspired Beacon + Sworn Enemy + Weapon Spec + Weapon Mastery + Two Handed Style + Chromo's dmg bonus via Metaphysics skill + FoD's double lash + the Chromo's lashes leads to such numbers. It's not even tricky to achieve: sneak to enemies and cast Inspired Beacon from stealth: no recovery because out of stealth. Then Sworn Enemy (no recovery anyway). Then Eternal Devotion which really profits from the PL scaling and the lahes, followed by Clear Out (it hits the initial target twice which leads to such high numbers, the individual rolls were about 100 each).

It's not really micro-intense besides the Inspired Beacon part which could be left aside (but it's a nice setup for other party members).

I didn't even use Retribution! ;) But I had Infamous Captain which adds +5% - so that balances it out a bit I guess. 

Might was 17. So nothing wild.

Thank you. ūüôā Can I just ask one more thing? How does the "faith attunement" work? I mean, what exactly happens if you don't follow respective subclass dialogue choices/dispositions? For the Bleak Walker to be precise.

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