Cipher dps spells

[Griffonheart]

Heya, fairly new to the game here.

I've been managing Cipher AI for cc/support and it's tons of fun, though I also realize that I rarely consider any of its dps spells. I did some research online and most of the dps methods with Cipher involving multiclassing or weapon damage, rather than blasting people with brain cells. Can anyone clarify how useful (or not) Cipher dps spells are?

[Haplok]

Hm, Amplified Wave does solid damage to big crowds. Disintegrate is one of the top single-target damage powers.

Obviously you want to debuff enemy Fortitude to land them reliably.

Before that, mind Blades are decent when there are 2-3 enemies and the Blades keep bouncing between them.

And Ectoplasmic Echo ray is always good.

Edited February 5, 2021 by Haplok

[Boeroer]

Ectopsychic Echo does great dmg. It's really hard to pull off for AI though... I guess? Didn't really try but it's tricky enough when I try to place it myself.

Mind Blades is maybe the easiest spell to use for AI. With decent Power Level and some gear that can improve its stats it can be pretty good.

One spell that is totally underestimated is Soul Shock imo. I only used it more frequently when I was playing my Psion/Troubadour - because it's so cheap that you can always cast it if you alternate between invocaions and cipher powers - even in the early game. I pretty much overlooked it before but I realized it's pretty good actually. Shock damage is often the least resisted type of elemental damage and Soul Shock scales well with Power Levels. It's also easy to use for AI I guess. Just drop it on the ally with the most enemies around or so. It's obviously not your go-to spell while ascended - you want to put out the most devastating spells then - but its dmg/cost ratio is good. 

[Elric Galad]

Nice, I wanted to know how well Soul Shock worked for Psion for a while !

[Griffonheart]

1 hour ago, Boeroer said:

One spell that is totally underestimated is Soul Shock imo. I only used it more frequently when I was playing my Psion/Troubadour - because it's so cheap that you can always cast it if you alternate between invocaions and cipher powers - even in the early game. I pretty much overlooked it before but I realized it's pretty good actually.

 

So spamming it on the tank, yes? If anything, that's probably easy to program an AI for it.

 

Is it wise to create a single class Cipher with 4~5 dps spells (as a striker), or is it preferred to multi class with something else, like Chanter?

[Boeroer]

If you only want to spam cipher spells I would multiclass with Helwalker. The +10 MIG (dmg), +10 INT (duration, AoE size), +2 PEN and +5 MIG (dmg) from Thunderous Blows and +12 ACC with Enduring Dance are great. Also a great combo for non-Psions because Helwalkers have an easier time generating more focus - for example with Hand Mortar/Fire in the Hole on groups of enemies (mortars' AoE also increases with INT etc.).

 

[Griffonheart]

13 hours ago, Boeroer said:

If you only want to spam cipher spells I would multiclass with Helwalker. The +10 MIG (dmg), +10 INT (duration, AoE size), +2 PEN and +5 MIG (dmg) from Thunderous Blows and +12 ACC with Enduring Dance are great. Also a great combo for non-Psions because Helwalkers have an easier time generating more focus - for example with Hand Mortar/Fire in the Hole on groups of enemies (mortars' AoE also increases with INT etc.)

So abilities such as Time Parasite and Death of 1k Cuts are not worth going full Cipher for dps? I was hoping to stick with pure Cipher because I like how their abilities aren't the traditional mage pew pew, but it appears that multi-class is the way to go. *slightly sad*

[Boeroer]

No, stuff like Time Parasite, Shared Nightmare etc. and especially Driving Echoes (for a fellow caster) are good reasons to go for SC Cipher.

It's just so that some multiclasses are more fun early on because they get two resource pools and are often frontloaded with good abilites. The advantages of a single class character become more obvious with more levels: higher Power Level, earlier access to impactful higher-level abilites and finally access to PL8 and 9 abilities is nothing that you "feel" early on but later. 

[Elric Galad]

The issue for me is that Single Class Cipher does not bring much to DPS. As Cipher, disintegrate is going to be your bread and butter DPS spell. It does not benefit much from higher tier Cipher Passive such as Shared Nightmare. Casting faster with Time Parasite won't help much your DoT Vs Single Target.

Single Class Beguiler with Shared Nightmare is super great to spam Crowd Control while getting focus back. It won't prevent you from casting disintegrate. But it can't truly be described as a DPS Cipher.

[Boeroer]

Time Parasite on an Ascendant in combination with Disintegrate is great. Higher PL, very fast casting, no focus cost... 

Disintegrate also profits from higher Power Level which would multiply with additive dmg bonuses such as MIG (maybe also Griffin's Blade and Harley pet - didn't test those with DoTs). Also the duration is longer then. 

The +10 MIG and +10 INT from a Helwalker is hard to beat though. Longer duration is not increased dps - but the overall dmg from one cast is bigger. 

If it's about Disintegrate only: Forbidden Fist with its enfeeble effect is also very good here: Forbidden Fist + Stunning Surge will lower enemies' fortitude by 20. It's way easier to land Disintegrate then. If you're also using a Morning Star you can lower the fortitude by 45 points which often leads to Disintegrate-crits. Enfeebled + Crit + 10 INT means +150% Disintegration duration! That's not dps via pure casting of course.

Instead of SC Ascendant one can also use a Streetfighter/Ascendant and use mortars or other blunderbusses to reach ascension an then cut recovery in half (during Ascension most importantly).

Edited February 6, 2021 by Boeroer

[Griffonheart]

53 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

The +10 MIG and +10 INT from a Helwalker is hard to beat though. Longer duration is not increased dps - but the overall dmg from one cast is bigger. 

Thanks for all the suggestions. So your Helwalker approach is to not use wound abilities but accumulate them to empower Cipher spells? The +5% damage taken per wound is a little worrisome however...

I suppose I can test SC Cipher on my Serafen for the time being and see how it goes. I was advised to use Hunting Bow modal to speed up the attacks, but the damage had been rather unimpressive. When I tried Blunderbuss modal, I think it damages my teammates too? Would love to hear some options on weapon choices here.

[NotDumbEnough]

An SC ascendant is probably one of the strongest damage dealers in the game to the point that it makes the game boring. It's like using cheat codes. Open with Thunderous Report on Kitchen Stove for instant max focus. Use Borrowed Instincts for stat bonuses. Use Time Parasite till you have 7 or 8 stacks. Spam Amplified Wave faster than your enemies can get back up and everyone is dead in a few seconds. Every fight looks like this and it gets highly repetitive. 

[Boeroer]

That's only the case im fights with easy (enough) to hit enemies though. Against tough nuts that approach doesn't work. I find that SC Ascendant sometimes struggles against few but tough enemies (bosses mostly but also others).

[Griffonheart]

9 hours ago, NotDumbEnough said:

An SC ascendant is probably one of the strongest damage dealers in the game to the point that it makes the game boring. It's like using cheat codes. Open with Thunderous Report on Kitchen Stove for instant max focus. Use Borrowed Instincts for stat bonuses. Use Time Parasite till you have 7 or 8 stacks. Spam Amplified Wave faster than your enemies can get back up and everyone is dead in a few seconds. Every fight looks like this and it gets highly repetitive. 

 

7 hours ago, Boeroer said:

That's only the case im fights with easy (enough) to hit enemies though. Against tough nuts that approach doesn't work. I find that SC Ascendant sometimes struggles against few but tough enemies (bosses mostly but also others).

No weapon damage no focus, that’s what I’ve been experiencing on big boss, especially dragons. What would be a good SC Cipher weapon?

[Constentin Lévine]

11 hours ago, NotDumbEnough said:

Open with Thunderous Report on Kitchen Stove for instant max focus.

Note that every weapon ability or spell work like Thunderous Report : dragon's Breath from Dragon's Dowry, Searing Seal from Ngati's Tusk, Garland's Breath from Frostseeker, Storm Rune Shot from Thundercrack Pistol (wich, coupled with Overload, can paralize also) and the great Witting Wind from Amira's Wing with his huge area. I dont know for the Deltro's Cage Retentless storm or the Seven Bolt mantle bouncing shock wave, but I dont think so since it is not relied to the weapon. So with 2 or 3 weapons slots (with the giftbearer's cloth for exemple) you can generate focus very fast many time, useful for ascendant and convenient for other subclass.

Edited February 7, 2021 by Constentin Lévine

[Boeroer]

Yeah, most of them work like that as long as they are flagged as weapon attacks. But the difference is that Thunderous Report is not 1/rest like most of those abilities but instead is useable 1/encounter. 

Another ability that is a bit like this would be the spinning AoE attack of WotEP. It doesn't have that insane base dmg though. But it's AoE also works with Shared Nightmare and can be used to ascend very quickly if you're surrounded. 

A Cipher with Grave Calling/Chilling Grave even gets focus from the foe-only Chillfog that gets triggered if you kill any vessel with the sabre. So if you have a Chanter in the group (best a Beckoner) you can generate focus all the time by killing one or more of the weak skeletons. If you are fighting vessels it's often auto-win. 

Edited February 7, 2021 by Boeroer

[Boeroer]

9 hours ago, Griffonheart said:

No weapon damage no focus, that’s what I’ve been experiencing on big boss, especially dragons. What would be a good SC Cipher weapon?

You shouldn't limit yourself to one weapon. Kitchen Stove is great for most encouters like described. For the others you need something with high PER or better raw damage. For example Eccea's Arcane Blaster. It can make sure you get at least decent focus from even the most armored foes. Essence Interrupter can also be very good since the shock damage can be used when pierce or slash AR is very high. As SC Psion you don't need any weapon. Just some "stat stick".

[Griffonheart]

8 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

As SC Psion you don't need any weapon. Just some "stat stick".

I thought Psion is unpopular because it generates focus so slowly?

[Haplok]

... also Seekers Fang Spider's Flurry. Not only fill your Focus in one move (vs 3+ enemies), but most likely also condemn several foes to death by RAW DOTs soon afterwards, while also rooting them. 

 

...also per encounter BTW. 

Edited February 7, 2021 by Haplok

[Desmodeus]

52 minutes ago, Griffonheart said:

thought Psion is unpopular because it generates focus so slowly

Psion focus regen is dependant on your power level. The higher your PL the faster they regen focus

[Boeroer]

Soul Mind usually reaches 5 focus per second at lvl 20 (9 PL). It can reach 6 focus per second once you add +2 PL through Prestige and Stone of Power for example. With another 2 PLs (Lance of the Midwood Stag/Lord of the Forest) you get 7 focus per second and so on.   

You really don't want to get hit by anything (or crit if you are using the Community Patch) because that will pause your focus generation for 6 secs which is... bad. Only actual hits count though. self damage like Berserker Frenzy, Alacrity, Sacred Immolation, Blood Sacrifice, scepter modal etc. won't stop your focus generation. DoT's also only with the initial hit. Pulsing spells like Chillfog, Wicked Briars etc. or Wall spells are your worst enemy.  

[NotDumbEnough]

15 hours ago, Griffonheart said:

 

No weapon damage no focus, that’s what I’ve been experiencing on big boss, especially dragons. What would be a good SC Cipher weapon?

In tough fights where you have extreme difficulty hitting the boss you can just empower your way to full focus and first drop Brilliant on your entire party while a priest spams Salvation of Time. Horribly cheesy and not very fun so your choice as to whether or not to use it.

[Griffonheart]

21 hours ago, Boeroer said:

Soul Mind usually reaches 5 focus per second at lvl 20 (9 PL). It can reach 6 focus per second once you add +2 PL through Prestige and Stone of Power for example. With another 2 PLs (Lance of the Midwood Stag/Lord of the Forest) you get 7 focus per second and so on.   

You really don't want to get hit by anything (or crit if you are using the Community Patch) because that will pause your focus generation for 6 secs which is... bad. Only actual hits count though. self damage like Berserker Frenzy, Alacrity, Sacred Immolation, Blood Sacrifice, scepter modal etc. won't stop your focus generation. DoT's also only with the initial hit. Pulsing spells like Chillfog, Wicked Briars etc. or Wall spells are your worst enemy.  

 

16 hours ago, NotDumbEnough said:

In tough fights where you have extreme difficulty hitting the boss you can just empower your way to full focus and first drop Brilliant on your entire party while a priest spams Salvation of Time. Horribly cheesy and not very fun so your choice as to whether or not to use it.

So while Ascendant and Soul Blade have the best burst damage, Psion offers persistence and is unhindered by weapon, so long as you’re away. My experience being that most mobs can be easily CCed/Debuffed by regular Cipher, boss fight however is the core issue.

I think I’ll start with an elemental weapon first and see where it goes. Thx much for all the help!

[Boeroer]

I want to add that grazes don't stop Psion's Soul Mind. Only hits and crits (only crits with Community Patch).

[Griffonheart]

On 2/8/2021 at 9:00 PM, Boeroer said:

I want to add that grazes don't stop Psion's Soul Mind. Only hits and crits (only crits with Community Patch).

What's a community patch?

I found a thread from Novemeber on dpsing with Cipher, where you mentioned the Psion/Troubadour combo. XD