[Build request] Ranged Cipher multi-class build for turn-based PoTD

[Lampros]

I want to create a Cipher multi-class who will be mainly ranged DPS except for contributing Ancestor's Memory for the longer fights. (I hear they are quite useful for mega-boss fights.) So what is the most optimal multi-class combination for this task in turn-based? At the moment, I will likely go Cipher/Ranger, but I will also entertain other suggestions. Most important, can someone tell me the essential Cipher skills I need to get? I've never played Cipher in PoE 2, and I think I played Cipher just once in PoE 1 (and gave up).

[Boeroer]

I still didn't play TB mode, but since recovery and action speed don't seem to matter much, I would guess that Watershaper's Focus with Blast and Ondra's Wrath should be one of the top-notch weapons for a ranged Cipher since Ondra's Wrath not only does very high dmg but also generates focus. The biggest downside of Blast in RTwP (the slow attack speed) shouldn't matter in TB, right?

I assume that a Cipher/Arcane Archer would be a devastating dmg/CC combination then, because the Arcane Archer procs his imbue effects with every jump(!) of a projectile. Meaning Binding Web and Pull of Eora each proc thrice with Watershaper's Focus with Driving Flight, creating hefty zones of CC (immobilized + pull together, three instances in parallel each, absolute black hole that combo) while also having three jumping AoEs which deal damage with the same attacks, each of the hit rolls have the potential to trigger Ondra's Wrath. After Binding Web + Pull oE it's very easy to hit a lot of enemies at the same time with the Blast. Also Cipher/Ranger can have tremendous ranged ACC with Borrowed Instincts and the Rangers's known ACC buffs.

But I can also see Cipher/Rogue as being effective since Ondra's Wrath benefits from Sneak Attack, Deathblows etc.

A SC Cipher with Shared Nightmares will scale the size of Ondra's Wrath and the Blast AoE up. At 200 focus the blast and Ondra's Wrath will have +200% AoE size. Don't know if SC Cipher is cool in TB mode since the best high lvl ability (Time Parasite) seems to be meh on TB mode. 

I personally would pick a multiclass with Arcane Archer. 

Edited October 19, 2020 by Boeroer

[Boeroer]

I forgot Cipher/Helwalker which would also be a very strong contender. +10 MIG and +10 INT as well as Stunning Surge and Lightning Strikes is very good with Watershaper's Focus, too. Add Thunderous Blows and Enduring Dance. 

Edited October 19, 2020 by Boeroer

[Lampros]

4 hours ago, Boeroer said:

I still didn't play TB mode, but since recovery and action speed don't seem to matter much, I would guess that Watershaper's Focus with Blast and Ondra's Wrath should be one of the top-notch weapons for a ranged Cipher since Ondra's Wrath not only does very high dmg but also generates focus. The biggest downside of Blast in RTwP (the slow attack speed) shouldn't matter in TB, right?

I assume that a Cipher/Arcane Archer would be a devastating dmg/CC combination then, because the Arcane Archer procs his imbue effects with every jump(!) of a projectile. Meaning Binding Web and Pull of Eora each proc thrice with Watershaper's Focus with Driving Flight, creating hefty zones of CC (immobilized + pull together, three instances in parallel each, absolute black hole that combo) while also having three jumping AoEs which deal damage with the same attacks, each of the hit rolls have the potential to trigger Ondra's Wrath. After Binding Web + Pull oE it's very easy to hit a lot of enemies at the same time with the Blast. Also Cipher/Ranger can have tremendous ranged ACC with Borrowed Instincts and the Rangers's known ACC buffs.

But I can also see Cipher/Rogue as being effective since Ondra's Wrath benefits from Sneak Attack, Deathblows etc.

A SC Cipher with Shared Nightmares will scale the size of Ondra's Wrath and the Blast AoE up. At 200 focus the blast and Ondra's Wrath will have +200% AoE size. Don't know if SC Cipher is cool in TB mode since the best high lvl ability (Time Parasite) seems to be meh on TB mode. 

I personally would pick a multiclass with Arcane Archer. 

Hmm, does Arcane Archer get Wizards spells like Binding Web and Pull of Eora? I never played one; in fact, they didn't exist when I last played.

Also, what Cipher skills would you suggest that I get if my main focus (pun intended) is to be a ranged DPS who will primarily use the Cipher aspect of the character for spamming Ancestor's Memory?

[Kaylon]

If you want ranged dps then Arcane Archer/Ascendant with Frostseeker - great dps and synergy (high accuracy + Driving Flight + Frostseeker + Pull of Eora). If you want to play mostly as a caster then go Helwalker/Ascendant...

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/114109-best-bow-user/?do=findComment&comment=2197829

[Lampros]

5 minutes ago, Kaylon said:

If you want ranged dps then Arcane Archer/Ascendant with Frostseeker - great dps and synergy (high accuracy + Driving Flight + Frostseeker + Pull of Eora). If you want to play mostly as a caster then go Helwalker/Ascendant...

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/114109-best-bow-user/?do=findComment&comment=2197829

I mostly want him as a ranged DPS except when Ancestor's Memory is available and needed. What other Cipher spells/skills are worth taking though?

[Kaylon]

6 minutes ago, Lampros said:

I mostly want him as a ranged DPS except when Ancestor's Memory is available and needed. What other Cipher spells/skills are worth taking though?

Check my link - it's a dps build... For TB you can probably drop dex/res to 3 and max mig/per/int...

Edited October 19, 2020 by Kaylon

[Boeroer]

I didn't play TB but I suspect that Watershaper's Focus with Ondra's Wrath does more damage per turn than Frostseeker - but I might be mistaken. With Imbue shots Frostseeker will omit the two remaining projectiles once the first triggers the imbue effect. 

But even if WSF is better (it is def. better as opener with Pull of Eora and Binding Web because you get an additional proc per shot) I would still keep Frostseeker because there will be lots of situations where it's the better weapon because of AR resistances and immunities. 

Arcane Archers get some special attack ability called "Imbue:XY". It's basically a wizard spell attached to an arrow you shoot. Those abilities get bonus accuracy from your arcana skill. And they trigger their effect with every jump of a shot (makes Driving Flight mandatory kind of). The imbue effects are Minor Missiles, Binding Web, Fireball, Pull of Eora and Death Ring. Although it may sound amazing to trigger three Fireballs with WSF though there is a problem with the damaging imbue shots (missiles, Fireball, Death Ring): they don't scale properly with PL and get no additional PEN which makes them very underwhelming in the later game. One solution is to install the Community Patch which lets the PEN scale with the Arcana skill and makes then usable again. I still like Web + Pull better because the impact on the encounter is so much higher than some Fireballs. 

Even if you want max dps (or dpT since it's damage per Turn) it's great to have an effect that pulls and stucks most (or all) enemies in a tight space from which they can't escape. It raises your damage considerably because now you can hit all enemies with your AoE shots, be it from WSF or Frostseeker.  More enemies hit with one shot means more damage per Turn. 

 

Edited October 20, 2020 by Boeroer

[Boeroer]

If you want to see Watershaper's Focus in action with Ondra's Wrath (on a Sharpshooter/Trickster Scout though) then check this small animated gif:

I just shows how Ondra's Wrath triggers and does considerable dmg. 

[Lampros]

26 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

I didn't play TB but I suspect that Watershaper's Focus with Ondra's Wrath does more damage per turn than Frostseeker - but I might be mistaken. With Imbue shots Frostseeker will omit the two remaining projectiles once the first triggers the imbue effect. 

But even if WSF is better (it is def. better as opener with Pull of Eora and Binding Web because you get an additional proc per shot) I would still keep Frostseeker because there will be lots of situations where it's the better weapon because of AR resistances and immunities. 

Arcane Archers get some special attack ability called "Imbue:XY". It's basically a wizard spell attached to an arrow you shoot. Those abilities get bonus accuracy from your arcana skill. And they trigger their effect with every jump of a shot (makes Driving Flight mandatory kind of). The imbue effects are Minor Missiles, Binding Web, Fireball, Pull of Eora and Death Ring. Although it may sound amazing to trigger three Fireballs with WSF though there is a problem with the damaging imbue shots (missiles, Fireball, Death Ring): they don't scale properly with PL and get no additional PEN which makes them very underwhelming in the later game. One solution is to install the Community Patch which lets the PEN scale with the Arcana skill and makes then usable again. I still like Web + Pull better because the impact on the encounter is so much higher than some Fireballs. 

Even if you want max dps (or dpT since it's damage per Turn) it's great to have an effect that pulls and stucks most (or all) enemies in a tight space from which they can't escape. It raises your damage considerably because now you can hit all enemies with your AoE shots, be it from WSF or Frostseeker.  More enemies hit with one shot means more damage per Turn. 

 

What about single target damage weapons such as Saint Omaku's war bow? Do you guys recommend AoE weapons like Watershaper's Focus or Frost Seeker because they do more overall damage regardless of class - or because they help to generate Focus better as a Cipher? I do think I have enough ranged DPS if I have a Fury/Troubadour and Fighter/Monk (spamming Clear Out and Torment's Reach).

[Kaylon]

Ondra's Wrath has only 5% chance to trigger, which means you need packs of 5+ enemies to chain trigger it consistently. In these situations Watershaper's Focus will outdamage Frostseeker. However Frostseeker is much more flexible and does also great single target damage as long as your relative accuracy is high. For consistent high single target damage in TB you should use Dragon's Dowry with the 30% lash and the modal activated.

[Boeroer]

Because if you hit several enemies at once you deal more damage and get more focus. 

I recommend Watershaper's Focus especially because I went for Arcane Archer and the weapon has an integrated jump (works with the Blast AoE as well) - and because the Blast modal's big drawback in RTwP (+50% recovery time) is not a problem in TB mode. Also because the Ondra's Wrath proc generates focus and does good dmg. 

Edited October 20, 2020 by Boeroer

[Boeroer]

Dragon's Dowry does excellent ST damage, yes. Lashes do generate focus so that's a great weapon for Ciphers in TB mode.

[Haplok]

I think I'd take Red Hand over Dowry. It seems to be the only weapon capable of firing twice per round. 

[Lampros]

2 hours ago, Kaylon said:

Ondra's Wrath has only 5% chance to trigger, which means you need packs of 5+ enemies to chain trigger it consistently. In these situations Watershaper's Focus will outdamage Frostseeker. However Frostseeker is much more flexible and does also great single target damage as long as your relative accuracy is high. For consistent high single target damage in TB you should use Dragon's Dowry with the 30% lash and the modal activated.

 

2 hours ago, Boeroer said:

Because if you hit several enemies at once you deal more damage and get more focus. 

I recommend Watershaper's Focus especially because I went for Arcane Archer and the weapon has an integrated jump (works with the Blast AoE as well) - and because the Blast modal's big drawback in RTwP (+50% recovery time) is not a problem in TB mode. Also because the Ondra's Wrath proc generates focus and does good dmg. 

 

Okay, perhaps I should use 2 weapons then- for single target and multiple targets?

[Kaylon]

41 minutes ago, Haplok said:

I think I'd take Red Hand over Dowry. It seems to be the only weapon capable of firing twice per round. 

It doesn't fire twice per round, you just skip recovery after the first shot.

[Haplok]

Well, there is no Recovery in Turn Based mode. Come to think of it, Firearms have no Recovery in Deadfire in general. Only Reload.

And using Red Hand was the only instance when I was able to make 2 actions in the same round (although the 2nd near the end of the round).

Sadly Blade Cascade or Recovery cancelling bows did not seem to allow for this.

Edited October 21, 2020 by Haplok

[Boeroer]

12 hours ago, Kaylon said:

It doesn't fire twice per round, you just skip recovery after the first shot.

Did you try it in TB mode?

[Kaylon]

8 hours ago, Boeroer said:

Did you try it in TB mode?

Yes

[Haplok]

My understanding is that Red Hand might have behaved differently on the initial release of the Turn Based mode.