New arrow settings... not great

[Kissker]

So it was already tough enough to get gas arrows, now they are one time use.

Venom arrows don't seem to do a terribly high amount of damage compared to good ol' reusable arrows either..

my point is... these changes (making the 'special arrows' one time use) makes the bow weaker. A LOT weaker.  If arrows are meant to be 1 time use (venom/gas/lure/etc) then they either need to be MORE devastating (as you won't be getting them back, ever) or make more of them per parts. (like 10 venom per drop of poison, and 5 gas arrows per gas sack, etc) to help compensate for this.

Also.. quivers. Allow a crafted quiver - this could hold say 50 arrows of 1 kind, taking up only 1 slot (instead of 3, as arrows are one of the few things that stack in 20s)

I would like you to keep in mind, creatures hit with arrows from far enough away that they cannot quickly 'pathfind' to the player - are wasted. As the HP lost from the hit, is near instantly restored once they lose aggro from this pathfinding failure.  It would be an entirely different opinion if creatures had to eat and rest to recover HP, and always kept their HP rates when lost, allowing hit and run tactics, kiting and the like for tactical strikes, but as we have none of that - most arrows are wasted upon firing, now quite literally deleted from the world.  Many that can be retrieved fall into rocks, under the earth, and in other 'can't reach' locations.

[McSquirl Nugget]

23 minutes ago, Kissker said:

these changes (making the 'special arrows' one time use) makes the bow weaker. A LOT weaker.  If arrows are meant to be 1 time use (venom/gas/lure/etc) then they either need to be MORE devastating (as you won't be getting them back, ever) or make more of them per parts. (like 10 venom per drop of poison, and 5 gas arrows per gas sack, etc) to help compensate for this.

I think the change was a good one.  Gas arrows, theoretically, had the gas organ attached to the arrow, then it explodes on impact causing the gas cloud.  How would you get that back to reuse?  the gas pouch, for lack of better name off the top of my head, has been ruptured. you'd have to remake it anyway.  Venom arrow, the venom is diluted to removed after hitting the target, same with the lure.  It was a bug and they fixed it, the way it is now is better.  

What should happen in my mind, is the special arrow should get used, and then you can collect the normal arrow from it.  as it doesn't destroy the arrow, just the gas pouch, etc.

29 minutes ago, Kissker said:

Also.. quivers. Allow a crafted quiver - this could hold say 50 arrows of 1 kind, taking up only 1 slot (instead of 3, as arrows are one of the few things that stack in 20s)

I'd love to have a quiver or 2.  But 50 arrows in one quiver?  That's a bit unreasonable, that would be one heck of a huge quiver.  we get stacks of 20 arrows already,  so 1 stack per quiver, 2 quivers can be worn at once would be more realistic.  you'd get 40 arrows then,  that's enough to kill almost any insect in the game now with the tier 1 bow.

 

33 minutes ago, Kissker said:

I would like you to keep in mind, creatures hit with arrows from far enough away that they cannot quickly 'pathfind' to the player - are wasted. As the HP lost from the hit, is near instantly restored once they lose aggro from this pathfinding failure.  It would be an entirely different opinion if creatures had to eat and rest to recover HP, and always kept their HP rates when lost, allowing hit and run tactics, kiting and the like for tactical strikes, but as we have none of that - most arrows are wasted upon firing, now quite literally deleted from the world.  Many that can be retrieved fall into rocks, under the earth, and in other 'can't reach' locations.

hopefully the ground collision for planks and such fixed the arrows falling through.  I've yet to have one of mine stuck elsewhere (meaning i've only lost them when they fell in the ground) i couldn't retrieve.  Most of mine i lose are bad shots, or ones that the icon and shine has faded away from and i couldn't find.  

Kiting i think is an exploit, and I'm glad they have the feature in place to prevent that, and with as much work as they've put into the combat, hopefully it never changes.  

Now for the bug health, i agree it should not instantly become full once they're non aggressive.  It should take time to recover when not in combat at a reasonable rate.  say an hour in game and they get 1/2 heath bar back, that's like what 5 minutes real time?  if you can't get back to them in that much time, too bad.

[nekogod]

Quote

Kiting i think is an exploit, and I'm glad they have the feature in place to prevent that, and with as much work as they've put into the combat, hopefully it never changes. 

How is kiting an exploit? What's the point of the bow if kiting isn't a valid option, if they only ever want you to fight in melee range then they may as well remove it. Combat is probably one of the weakest areas of the game currently, hit, block/dodge, hit block/dodge, hit, enemy dead unless it's a lady bug or a wolf spider, but even then it's not much more complex. Most enemies have coreographed attacks so you can tell exactly what they're doing and when,

Kiting adds a bit of variety and challenge, especially if you're using some strategically placed spike strips. Constantly moving, keeping range, drawing the enemy in a certain direction, keeping an eye out, quick turn arounds (as you'll be running backwards mostly) etc, way more engaging and harder to master.

Like the idea of quivers, one stack per quiver seems pointless though unless they don't take up a slot otherwise you're still losing 2 slots for 40 arrows so nothing would change.

[Rooks Nemesis]

I agree to some extent with almost every ones posts.. 

The current arrow debacle is exactly that.. The cost per use doesn't exactly add up, like currently with the newly added feather arrow. You need to wait nearly 40 minutes for the CHANCE for 1 feather to fall.. Chop chop chop.. Get 1 piece.. (maybe more? Ive had no luck past 1) then make 1 arrow?!?.. Thats a bit crazy..

To combat that I do agree with above 1 sack, venom or feather should be 5 made per 1, it just makes sense. And in the end yes we should be able to collect the arrows again on specialty ones ie. Gas.

The venom arrow and feather are a joke damage wise. I think they know this hence the buff all ready done to the fang dagger and both daggers poison proc.

As for the above thought on quivers. YES so much YES. But one quiver per 20 arrows? Whats the point then? 2 stacks per quiver again makes sense imo. It clears up 2 more slots for other things, assuming the quiver gets its own equipment slot. They've all ready stated. That equipped armor will be pulled out of our inventory eventually and added to their own slots..

BUT, no more then 1 quiver equipped at a time, 

Personally I would also like to see the addition of like a spear holder, I love building 3 to 5 spears and hurl them at critters before going toe to toe, that is before insect bow is built (which by the way should not be able to be built in less then 15 minutes on a fresh start)

This is all just my 2 cents tho. In the end who really knows what they have planned for everything. And I'm quite certain they have just begin the "balancing act" with weapons etc. 

[McSquirl Nugget]

15 hours ago, Rooks Nemesis said:

But one quiver per 20 arrows? Whats the point then?

i like to have just a little bit of realism to a survival sim.  that was my point. it shouldn't all be fantasy make believe.  the largest bow quivers made now only hold 24 arrows max, unless you go custom made. but even the large ones at 24 arrows are awkward,  strapping on a 50 arrow quiver, or a 40 arrow quiver,  where?  remove the backpack and strap it on your back is the only feasable way,  but then we'd have everybody complaining they can't use the backpack and quiver at once.   

So my idea was 2 standard quivers, actually larger than standard as they'd be hip worn quivers like a handgun holster,  20 arrows in each, which in reality is still nuts but it's a game and we have bundles of 20 arrows already so there ya go.  

 

15 hours ago, Rooks Nemesis said:

Personally I would also like to see the addition of like a spear holder, I love building 3 to 5 spears and hurl them at critters before going toe to toe, that is before insect bow is built (which by the way should not be able to be built in less then 15 minutes on a fresh start)

great idea.  

i still haven't' gotten the tier 2 bow yet,  wolf spiders are still beyond me as a solo player,  i've gotten 1 fang so far since the release and that was from a bugged spider stuck in a root at the tree   someday... lol   Agreed it shouldn't be that easy to get.

Edited August 27, 2020 by McSquirl Nugget
still learning to spell apparently

[Kissker]

ok first off let me say a few things..

kiting is not an exploit. it is a tactic. In other games you would kite mobs to more favorable combat points (so you don't aggro a huge group, etc) or to just simply kill things you would normally die to (in case of more hardcore styles where ranged players had huge defense nerfs so 1-2 hits and they died) so it became a functional mechanic since - forever.   In reality, 'kiting' is an attack to lure enemies away, usually so another group of friendlies can sneak by or through an area that was previously guarded.    Kiting - doesn't really exist in Grounded.  You can 'sort of' kite slower critters, like lady bugs, but eventually if you get too far away, they just lose aggro and HP resets.   Faster enemies, like spiders, will just catch up with you.   Kiting is not 'attacking from a place they can't reach' that is more 'terrain exploitation' - and sure, given the current AI - I can agree that one is not really in the spirit of things.

Secondly - realism? You want, realism, in your survival game where you literally can respawn all you want, were shrunk down to the size of an ant, and never have to use the toilet, or sleep if you choose to?  There is almost no realism here, especially when it comes to AI.  You have to get rid of realism in games to make them entertaining, otherwise ... it is just reality.

 

Back to the quiver situation: carrying sling shoulder quivers or having a quiver attach to the backpack sides (allowing 2) is very much possible.  As for how much they can carry - why are you going crazy on this?  Look how much we can 'carry' now, then try to imagine what that looks like. Especially since it all 'crams magically into a tiny backpack".    As per how many a quiver can hold, yes, technically 20, 24 is the upper limit of most quivers. Obviously custom made 'barrel quivers' exist, but we won't go there.  But to keep to this 'realism' your making quivers essentially useless, as we already carry 20 arrows per slot.  It COULD become useful if we had an equipment paperdoll section, and armor/gear were removed from the backpack and put there - allowing the quiver to be placed there and then the arrows inside it - but that isn't the case right now.  Also - 20 arrows isn't even enough to kill most of the larger critters. You'd need to either shoot all 20, and then go melee it, or carry even more arrows - thus the issue.

 

as for the gas arrows - I'd like a balance if it's going to be lost. That is the main point. Either crafting more per gas sack, or simply increasing the damage/duration(both) of the fired arrow, making them much more useful overall, and at the cost the entire arrow is lost.

the venom arrows already craft 5 per venom, so I don't see why similar methods couldn't be used for gas arrows.  Sure your 'realism' of attaching a gas sack has to go out the window, as suddenly now we split the gas sack into 3-5 parts without it leaking somehow, but again Quality of Life and Balance changes over realism anyday.

if you want realism, you'd suggest that regular arrows (and feather ones) have a chance to break upon use, even if they hit the target, as in reality - that is what happens. Most of the time, they hit a bone, or chunk of armor, or a rock or what not - and they break. The only time they don't really break is when they hit completely soft tissue, or a target made to be soft and re-use arrows.  Essentially making every arrow shot - delete upon use.   That means 2 things: 1 - players would either have to hoard stupid amounts of arrows and supplies to make them, or more likely 2- players would stop using arrows all together, as the amount of effort to keep enough ammunition to do anything other than 'killed 1 thing, going to get more' would be tedious.

You can then see the point there. If you go too far into 'reality' territory, you dull the game, make it tedious to get anything done, and generally speaking - players stop playing and move onto other games.  If you wanted this to be 'more real" I'd suggest you rework the backpack system, we should have maybe 4 inventory spaces if your going with reality, along with maybe 6 hotbar slots. Doesn't sound like much fun, does it? (in this example gear would be worn, and your hotbar would be a few things strapped to your belt/side/back) because there is no way in 'reality' that backpack can fit more than 1 dandelion fluff, yet you can easily fit 10+

[McSquirl Nugget]

13 hours ago, Kissker said:

Secondly - realism? You want, realism, in your survival game where you literally can respawn all you want, were shrunk down to the size of an ant, and never have to use the toilet, or sleep if you choose to?  There is almost no realism here, especially when it comes to AI.  You have to get rid of realism in games to make them entertaining, otherwise ... it is just reality.

I said a real bit of realism,  not full reality. 

 

13 hours ago, Kissker said:

As for how much they can carry - why are you going crazy on this?

i didn't go crazy on it, i gave my 2¢ on the idea.  that is what the forums are for.  

 

14 hours ago, Kissker said:

Also - 20 arrows isn't even enough to kill most of the larger critters. You'd need to either shoot all 20, and then go melee it, or carry even more arrows - thus the issue.

You obviously didn't read what i said.  my idea was to have 2 hip quivers 1 stack in each = 40 arrows.  you can kill every bug in the game with 40 arrows, minus the wolf spider and brood mother, maybe even them, i haven't tried.  oh and the queen, another i haven't tried.

2 quivers on the side of the pack is probably a better idea, hold more in those and they'd be out of the way.

14 hours ago, Kissker said:

You can then see the point there. If you go too far into 'reality' territory, you dull the game, make it tedious to get anything done, and generally speaking - players stop playing and move onto other games.  If you wanted this to be 'more real"

Agreed.  i don't want the game to be more real, that "little bit of realism" is needed to keep the game from being totally fantasy,  what we have now is a good mix of realism in a fantasy.  I'm just putting my ideas out there like everyone else for the Devs to view and hopefully help them decide what gets into the game or doesn't.

[Kissker]

depends on difficulty. I distinctly remember playing on mild, and things breaking (stems, grass) much easier, as orb weavers and such dying quicker, and then medium taking more, and the 'hard' setting taking something like double.  There is an obvious scale in 'target HP' due to difficulty.  Now, maybe this isn't intended, but it probably is.  On Medium I think I remember firing 28 arrows into an orb weaver to kill it, and that was a stuck one that didn't "back pedal' and lose aggro to gain HP.

[stryderFOX]

On 8/27/2020 at 4:40 AM, Kissker said:

my point is... these changes (making the 'special arrows' one time use) makes the bow weaker. A LOT weaker.  If arrows are meant to be 1 time use (venom/gas/lure/etc) then they either need to be MORE devastating (as you won't be getting them back, ever) or make more of them per parts. (like 10 venom per drop of poison, and 5 gas arrows per gas sack, etc) to help compensate for this.

 

Totally agree on this. We need to have more arrows per craft.

 

On 8/27/2020 at 8:48 AM, Rooks Nemesis said:

The current arrow debacle is exactly that.. The cost per use doesn't exactly add up, like currently with the newly added feather arrow. You need to wait nearly 40 minutes for the CHANCE for 1 feather to fall.. Chop chop chop.. Get 1 piece.. (maybe more? Ive had no luck past 1) then make 1 arrow?!?.. Thats a bit crazy..

 

When I saw the materials to craft the feather arrows, I really thought it has the same function as a grappling hook because it had spider web in its crafting cost :D. After testing, its just a regular arrow with a crow's feather attached lol.

On 8/27/2020 at 6:38 AM, nekogod said:

How is kiting an exploit? What's the point of the bow if kiting isn't a valid option, if they only ever want you to fight in melee range then they may as well remove it. Combat is probably one of the weakest areas of the game currently, hit, block/dodge, hit block/dodge, hit, enemy dead unless it's a lady bug or a wolf spider, but even then it's not much more complex. Most enemies have coreographed attacks so you can tell exactly what they're doing and when,

Very true. Currently combat lacks evasive movement and for that reason, I prefer to use range combat. Kiting in this game is a must since it is the only dodge mechanic we have in the game. This is the first time I've heard kiting is an exploit....

 

On 8/27/2020 at 4:40 AM, Kissker said:

I would like you to keep in mind, creatures hit with arrows from far enough away that they cannot quickly 'pathfind' to the player - are wasted. As the HP lost from the hit, is near instantly restored once they lose aggro from this pathfinding failure.  It would be an entirely different opinion if creatures had to eat and rest to recover HP, and always kept their HP rates when lost, allowing hit and run tactics, kiting and the like for tactical strikes, but as we have none of that - most arrows are wasted upon firing, now quite literally deleted from the world.  Many that can be retrieved fall into rocks, under the earth, and in other 'can't reach' locations.

I like the idea that creatures should have a way to recover their hp. A lot of games have this mechanic and should be a standard in modern games. The HP recovery from lost aggro is an ancient mechanic and should be totally abandoned specially in survival games.

[McSquirl Nugget]

On 8/29/2020 at 12:02 PM, Kissker said:

depends on difficulty. I distinctly remember playing on mild, and things breaking (stems, grass) much easier, as orb weavers and such dying quicker, and then medium taking more, and the 'hard' setting taking something like double.  There is an obvious scale in 'target HP' due to difficulty.  Now, maybe this isn't intended, but it probably is.  On Medium I think I remember firing 28 arrows into an orb weaver to kill it, and that was a stuck one that didn't "back pedal' and lose aggro to gain HP.

all i've played so far is medium  i think you're about right on the arrow count for orbs,  about the same for lady bugs, bombardiers and stink bugs are right around there also, bit less i think.