Once again another Crusader Thread from me..please help!

[Torm51]

I like tanking and using a shield but as you know a sack of meat no offense tank isn’t very effective in a game with no aggro, even with engagement.   What would be agood stat distribution for a Crusader build around good defenses but acceptable offensive output with sword and shield?  I feel like I need Per, Might and Int.  I Think can skip on dex if I speed myself up with mob stance and gear...I hate dumping resolve and leaving at 10 for RP reasons but i feel I may have to to be effective...

[thelee]

2 hours ago, Torm51 said:

I like tanking and using a shield but as you know a sack of meat no offense tank isn’t very effective in a game with no aggro, even with engagement.   What would be agood stat distribution for a Crusader build around good defenses but acceptable offensive output with sword and shield?  I feel like I need Per, Might and Int.  I Think can skip on dex if I speed myself up with mob stance and gear...I hate dumping resolve and leaving at 10 for RP reasons but i feel I may have to to be effective...

i don't have too much experience with a crusader, but I would personally max out resolve and get as much dexterity as I can, and then mostly rely on small shields versus the others.

you would really lean into the tankiness of it all, and due to increasing returns of deflection, max resolve + paladin deep faith (and good role playing) + shield style + small shield would get you huge survivability returns. Small shields don't tank your accuracy, so you don't need perception as desperately. And the small shield modal boosts your weapon accuracy by +15, which can help offset your lower offensive output and the 25% recovery penalty for switching on the modal. There also a couple of small shields that you can dual wield for damage (tuolito's palm--even if it's monk focused, you can also pick up monastic unarmed training and give it a similar boost--or the best defense) and dual-wielding speedy responsiveness. (also helps with damage output if you have mob stance on) later on, weyc's oracular focus can make you very tough with either permanent +5 or temporary +10 deflection boost, combined with refreshing defense from the fighter.

your points are scattered and limited, so I would reserve most other points for dexterity. Compared to might and perception it gives you all-around superior returns, and also helps compensate for the sluggishness of being a tank. I would actually eat a point or two out of constitution - early on you can use an amulet of health, and later on if you're still struggling you can pick up Tough. But IME your high defenses and paladin skills will do more for you than more points in constitution. You can use those points from constitution to put into dexterity or intellect. I wouldn't take points out of might or perception if I could help it, but at the same time I would only put points into it if I had already maxed out resolve and I was comfortable with where my dexterity and intellect were sitting at.

[Torm51]

Appreciate the quick response!  Shows what I know...lol I read what your PoTD post about damage stats and read that PER and MIG should be equal and are very good for your DPS on PoTD.  We did think the same on RES, but I see your point with DEX.  The post you made about damage stats did not talk about weapon and shield style, and because it makes you slower maybe DEX is the play.  I was thinking I could speed myself up with items like Reckless Brigandine, Modywr etc and not have to worry about DEX...but yes in the early game before you have those items you are really damn slow...and a few bad rolls against you you may not have the speed to land Lay on Hands.  Weird on a physical class that your Fort is going to be meh BUT I get it and at least I get to keep Res which i like

 

Deadfire Stats tend be so weird to me physcall classes dont need physical stats lmao but maybe that is just cause i only play PoTD and PoTD unbalances the game a bit.  The game was made for normal right? lol  

 

Lastly, I feel like Crusader and the Paladin class have to many needs in PoTD.  You could use Might, Int, Res, Per, and Dex..its too much you are spread too thin.  

Edited July 6, 2020 by Torm51

[omgFIREBALLS]

9 hours ago, Torm51 said:

but as you know a sack of meat no offense tank isn’t very effective in a game with no aggro, even with engagement. 

Do I know this? Engagement actually feels very powerful to me for aggro. If you're fighting multiple enemies, you can keep the bulk of them locked down. If you're fighting one enemy and they be like "like I'm gonna hit the toughest target lol", you swap to a rapier (with nothing in the offhand), modal on, and Mule Kick the poor villain over and over. I think I was using Rännig's Wrath for this, as IIRC it has the highest accuracy of all rapiers.

[Boeroer]

Engagement/Disengagement has a lot more impact than it had in PoE.

One of my favorite tanks is still an Unbroken/Trickster with large shield who has about 5-6 engagement slots.

A Crusader is very tough from the start and gets Lay on Hands + Constant Recovery + Unbending as well as multiple resistances. For most parties that's tanky enough without a shield - but you'll have to use thick armor. Pet + Armored Grace help to counter the recovery malus. Enemies severely underpenetrating you is one of the best things for your survival. If you can combine it with more dmg mitigating effects (like food - see rice etc.) you can keep incoming dmg really low. Stuff like focused gunfire can still hurt, so switching to a large shield setup during such occasions is a good idea. But against most opponents you can go with a two hander or a dual weapon setup. 

Another idea could be to stack some retaliation. You can stack Flame Shields of Darcozzi and Magran's Blessing. Magran's Blessing also is a bashing shield as @thelee suggested (not small though). You could also take Brand Enemy. It's cheap and it has no recovery. So in theory you could spend most of your Zeal with putting Brand Enemy on most of the enemies and leave the rest for healing. Maybe one or two for Eternal Devotion (works with the Fire Shields as well). Brand Enemy is a slow death but inevitable (can't miss, has no duration). Except against fire immune enemies obviously. The fire shields + brand stack up decently enough. You can then add some other retaliation effects (there's not too many though).

Late-game shenanigans: If you have a SC Furyshaper in the party then Brand Enemy (as any DoT) will heal you with every tick once the FuryShaper casts Blood Ward... So putting multiple Brand Enemies out will give you a never-ending trickle of healing (as long as there's a Blood Ward - which lasts a really long time).

 

 

[Torm51]

7 hours ago, omgFIREBALLS said:

Do I know this? Engagement actually feels very powerful to me for aggro. If you're fighting multiple enemies, you can keep the bulk of them locked down. If you're fighting one enemy and they be like "like I'm gonna hit the toughest target lol", you swap to a rapier (with nothing in the offhand), modal on, and Mule Kick the poor villain over and over. I think I was using Rännig's Wrath for this, as IIRC it has the highest accuracy of all rapiers.

100% I didn’t mean to say that engagement is bad, it’s definitely not. It’s waaaaaay better than in POE 1.  As Boeroer said Trickster/unbroken and anything really that engages tanks for sure.  What I meanT was i didn’t want a tank whose only good at engaging.  In fights where you start surrounded or you get a might affliction you will lose engagement, granted the party should have escapes/Inspirations  so you can re-engage but I still Want the Crusader to be a competent at melee attacks on POTD.  

Edited July 6, 2020 by Torm51

[Torm51]

15 hours ago, thelee said:

i don't have too much experience with a crusader, but I would personally max out resolve and get as much dexterity as I can, and then mostly rely on small shields versus the others.

you would really lean into the tankiness of it all, and due to increasing returns of deflection, max resolve + paladin deep faith (and good role playing) + shield style + small shield would get you huge survivability returns. Small shields don't tank your accuracy, so you don't need perception as desperately. And the small shield modal boosts your weapon accuracy by +15, which can help offset your lower offensive output and the 25% recovery penalty for switching on the modal. There also a couple of small shields that you can dual wield for damage (tuolito's palm--even if it's monk focused, you can also pick up monastic unarmed training and give it a similar boost--or the best defense) and dual-wielding speedy responsiveness. (also helps with damage output if you have mob stance on) later on, weyc's oracular focus can make you very tough with either permanent +5 or temporary +10 deflection boost, combined with refreshing defense from the fighter.

your points are scattered and limited, so I would reserve most other points for dexterity. Compared to might and perception it gives you all-around superior returns, and also helps compensate for the sluggishness of being a tank. I would actually eat a point or two out of constitution - early on you can use an amulet of health, and later on if you're still struggling you can pick up Tough. But IME your high defenses and paladin skills will do more for you than more points in constitution. You can use those points from constitution to put into dexterity or intellect. I wouldn't take points out of might or perception if I could help it, but at the same time I would only put points into it if I had already maxed out resolve and I was comfortable with where my dexterity and intellect were sitting at.

@thelee This has led me on a good path thus far thank you.  Granted I’m  countering sluggish tanking differently, but you got me thinking properly. I started a game before your post and I’m on a no attribute respec rule...old school D and D style (my next one will be as you advised with high dex)Play through.  I’m currently in a PoTD trial of iron game with Beraths Challenge and Skaens (mild challengers, although before you have a Rez ability some fights can be terrifying lmao).  
 

In my misguided ways and from the material I  May have misread I figured Might and Per should be equal or close to for consistently landing hits on POTD with good damage.  I went 14 Might (Also for better heals), 15 Per and Max Resolve (19 base) and have stacked INT gear So far to make up for the average INT which at the start wasn’t great but it was enough.   Since I have a good PER I’m using a large shield and with Gilded Emnity stuff doesn’t PEN me even in Fine Leather when I do get hit.  So I have made up for the average dex by wearing light armor...the plan is to have the 2 INT helmet that the vendor sells in Neketaka (the Hylea themed one) and use the large shield that gives you high INT when you engage and then get the disc barrage upgrade that gives you InT and PL level. Also getting mob stance (already have enough engagement with Unbroken and some other items) and other items that speed me up will let me wear a bit heavier armor in the late game and not be slow.  I can get Resolve and affliction reduction in other slots like a ring.

A high Per and Disciplined Barrage (20 PER with Barrage up) I have been able to use a large shield and consistently hit and down the drakes In the early game  pretty much solo, I pulled them away from the party and a sword with pierce damage owns them, also with a large shield and Skrim I’m pushing 90 Deflection at level 5.

PS the large shield modal let me soak that high damage gunfire volley on Gorrecci street, it really helped.

 

Edited July 6, 2020 by Torm51

[thelee]

2 hours ago, Torm51 said:

In my misguided ways and from the material I  May have misread I figured Might and Per should be equal or close to for consistently landing hits on POTD with good damage.  I went 14 Might (Also for better heals), 15 Per

i know it's too late for your character now, but i just wanted to clarify that it's not just your might and per that needs balancing, but really a sum of all the different +damage and +accuracy bonuses you expect to have. in other words, for a rogue there's basically no point in investing in might, because sneak attack is such a consistent extra source of +damage% that to maximize your damage output you should put points into perception instead. similarly, a ranger is going to have such a huge accuracy that you're better off putting points into might than more into perception. and as a third example, if you expect to wield medium or large shields all the time, then perception becomes extremely important compared to might, because you're effectively starting off at -4 or -8 compared to might.

however, dexterity is the ultimate king damage stat. Both might and perception translate into ~2% net damage increase (it's counterintuitive, but 3% damage increase => 2% actual net damage increase due to grazes and how damage bonuses are additive). Dexterity very nearly translates into 3% net damage increase, and is useful for more than just damage. In basically any build (unless I'm going for a particular character "concept") I always prize dexterity over putting points into might and perception.

 

2 hours ago, Torm51 said:

PS the large shield modal let me soak that high damage gunfire volley on Gorrecci street, it really helped.

that large shield modal can be a real life saver. against those damned risen archers, i tend to send out a lone tank first with the large modal switched on shortly after so that they absorb all those killer arrow hits.

 

14 hours ago, Torm51 said:

Deadfire Stats tend be so weird to me physcall classes dont need physical stats lmao but maybe that is just cause i only play PoTD and PoTD unbalances the game a bit.  The game was made for normal right? lol  

yeah. I tend to actually really like this angle. I wish the stats were a bit more balanced, but in general I like the ability to create non-cookie-cutter builds. It's a bit ironic that "cookie-cutter" builds in this game are actually a bit suboptimal due to how con and might work, but aside from resolve (which has increasing returns and a single point can make or break a build) the impact of stats are such that "suboptimal" doesn't mean "game-ruining" like it used to IWD or BG (or Fallout 1/2, for a non-IE franchise example).

[Torm51]

37 minutes ago, thelee said:

i know it's too late for your character now, but i just wanted to clarify that it's not just your might and per that needs balancing, but really a sum of all the different +damage and +accuracy bonuses you expect to have. in other words, for a rogue there's basically no point in investing in might, because sneak attack is such a consistent extra source of +damage% that to maximize your damage output you should put points into perception instead. similarly, a ranger is going to have such a huge accuracy that you're better off putting points into might than more into perception. and as a third example, if you expect to wield medium or large shields all the time, then perception becomes extremely important compared to might, because you're effectively starting off at -4 or -8 compared to might.

however, dexterity is the ultimate king damage stat. Both might and perception translate into ~2% net damage increase (it's counterintuitive, but 3% damage increase => 2% actual net damage increase due to grazes and how damage bonuses are additive). Dexterity very nearly translates into 3% net damage increase, and is useful for more than just damage. In basically any build (unless I'm going for a particular character "concept") I always prize dexterity over putting points into might and perception.

 

that large shield modal can be a real life saver. against those damned risen archers, i tend to send out a lone tank first with the large modal switched on shortly after so that they absorb all those killer arrow hits.

 

yeah. I tend to actually really like this angle. I wish the stats were a bit more balanced, but in general I like the ability to create non-cookie-cutter builds. It's a bit ironic that "cookie-cutter" builds in this game are actually a bit suboptimal due to how con and might work, but aside from resolve (which has increasing returns and a single point can make or break a build) the impact of stats are such that "suboptimal" doesn't mean "game-ruining" like it used to IWD or BG (or Fallout 1/2, for a non-IE franchise example).

Agreed, thanks for the clarification.  Thing is I can’t fit anything else in this large shield build, so far it’s good, and wearing light armor makes the Crusader fast enough, but obviously could be better.

 I tried to make up the 10 DEX by being light since I had started already.  Gathering  what you said you would dump the 15 might for 15 Dex and keep might at 10 correct? Makes sense. Accurate and hit faster plus more reactive.  You lose out on heals and dmg but it’s not  bad. 

Edited July 6, 2020 by Torm51