The Complete Self, underwhelming?

[Noqn]

Though +5 Focus is not a lot (especially for a Lv7 Talent), The Complete Self sounds as if it might synergize with multi-hit spells such as Mind Blades, Antipathetic Field and AoEs.

Sadly, two things need to be taken into consideration:

1. The Complete Self only has a 33% chance to trigger.
2. Contrary to Beguiler's passive, The Complete Self will only trigger once per Spell hit, no matter the number of targets hit.

AoEs such as Silent Scream will at absolute most benefit from +5 Focus. I could see a Soul Blade having fun with Mind Wave + TCS, but that's about it.
Mind Blades will get 9 Bounces from a Cipher with Prestige. Assuming literary every hit is a Crit, that's an average of +16.5‬ Focus per cast, not even enough to recoup its original cost.
Antipathetic Field is in a better spot and can trigger The Complete Self once per Beam tick. Because AF has a static 6.0s duration and ticks per 1.0s, it can generate up to +35 Focus.

I'd say The Complete Self is inconsistent and negliable. Its synergy with Antipathetic Field is nice, but only works under optimal conditions vs. several low-Reflex enemies.

[Elric Galad]

Well, it's not worse than the other focus talent.

Free focus is still free focus. Granting +5 focus here and there is still giving you free casts. You can't really compare an ability with a subclass feat that comes along drawbacks.

Low priority, not mandatory, but probably good enough.

[thelee]

1 hour ago, Noqn said:

1. Contrary to Beguiler's passive, The Complete Self will only trigger once per Spell hit, no matter the number of targets hit.

to be fair, the beguiler effect is extremely powerful.

 

Also @Elric Galad is right. The comparison point is not with subclass features, but with other talents. Remember that Keen Mind (at 5) only gives you +10  and in a non-trivial fight with the right setup (lots of aoe or multi-target powers), this could give you quite a bit more.

Though frankly I didn't know about the 33% proc chance - in a perfect world it probably should be tuned up. They really should've made the effort to auto-generate the odds of something happening within their tooltips.

Edited June 2, 2020 by thelee

[Elric Galad]

21 hours ago, thelee said:

to be fair, the beguiler effect is extremely powerful.

 

Also @Elric Galad is right. The comparison point is not with subclass features, but with other talents. Remember that Keen Mind (at 5) only gives you +10  and in a non-trivial fight with the right setup (lots of aoe or multi-target powers), this could give you quite a bit more.

Though frankly I didn't know about the 33% proc chance - in a perfect world it probably should be tuned up. They really should've made the effort to auto-generate the odds of something happening within their tooltips.

Now that I'm thinking about it, all Cipher Focus talents are pretty bad. Complete Self isn't even the Worse.

How much focus worth ? I usually consider following equivalence :
1 ressource pool point*  <-> Tier 1-3 spells
2 ressources pool point  <-> Tier 4-6 spells
3 ressources pool point  <-> Tier 7-9 spells
*bar special cases such as Focus and Phrases

So given the focus cost of Cipher spells, I'd say that 1 ressource pool point  <-> 20-30 focus.

There are Abilities that provide +1 ressource. So Greater Focus and Keen Mind should provide around 20-30 focus instead of 10. 10 is bad.

I would consider Something like this :
Greater Focus : +20 starting and max Focus
Keen Mind : +30 starting Focus
Complete Self : (minor buff) 50% +5 focus on Crit. This one should be enough.
 

[Boeroer]

Keep in Mind that both (Greater Focus and Keen Mind) let you cast powers at the start of combat that would otherwise be too costly for you. Which is - in my opinion - the main reason to take them. 

Also some passives use max focus (or current focus) variable in their mechanics (Shared Nightmare, Soul Annihilation etc.). Giving both Greater Focus +20 instead of +10 might destroy the balancing of those. 

[Noqn]

22 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

Free focus is still free focus. Granting +5 focus here and there is still giving you free casts. You can't really compare an ability with a subclass feat that comes along drawbacks.

22 hours ago, thelee said:

Also @Elric Galad is right. The comparison point is not with subclass features, but with other talents. Remember that Keen Mind (at 5) only gives you +10  and in a non-trivial fight with the right setup (lots of aoe or multi-target powers), this could give you quite a bit more.

That's fair, I'm annoyed by the low (and obfuscated) trigger chance more than anything.

49 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

I would consider Something like this :
Greater Focus : +20 starting and max Focus
Keen Mind : +30 starting Focus
Complete Self : (minor buff) 50% +5 focus on Crit. This one should be enough.

Sounds like good values. 50% will be much more consistent without going overboard. Keen Mind and Greater Focus definitely needed buffs, indeed.

10 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

Also some passives use max focus (or current focus) variable in their mechanics (Shared Nightmare, Soul Annihilation etc.). Giving both Greater Focus +20 instead of +10 might destroy the balancing of those. 

Ciphers get Focus up in the 200's, I don't think +20 would be too extreme at all.

[Elric Galad]

Also, I think that guns mechanics in PoE2 are very generous for getting starting focus. When you can double hit with Red hand or a Dual Mortars Full Attack and cast immediately after, I don't think that +10 Focus is going to make a relevant differance.

Do somebody actually use these Abilities ?

[thelee]

1 hour ago, Elric Galad said:

Also, I think that guns mechanics in PoE2 are very generous for getting starting focus. When you can double hit with Red hand or a Dual Mortars Full Attack and cast immediately after, I don't think that +10 Focus is going to make a relevant differance.

Do somebody actually use these Abilities ?

Cipher is probably ultimate snowball-effect class in the game (maybe chanter or debonaire after that). For example, being able to cast puppet master from stealth is an incredibly insurmountable advantage for the player. The mechanics of the two talents means that Greater Focus can give you the extra to do that in the first place (at the very least lowering the threshold by a clvl for a vanilla cipher), and Keen Mind gives you a shot of extra focus once combat begins sot that you can do something else with your essentially "free" post-stealth action. I haven't tried this with ringleader (i don't know if this is stealth-castable), 

[Elric Galad]

46 minutes ago, thelee said:

Cipher is probably ultimate snowball-effect class in the game (maybe chanter or debonaire after that). For example, being able to cast puppet master from stealth is an incredibly insurmountable advantage for the player. The mechanics of the two talents means that Greater Focus can give you the extra to do that in the first place (at the very least lowering the threshold by a clvl for a vanilla cipher), and Keen Mind gives you a shot of extra focus once combat begins sot that you can do something else with your essentially "free" post-stealth action. I haven't tried this with ringleader (i don't know if this is stealth-castable), 

Yup, but as you say, it changes only for a couple clevel, mostly for SC because Greatest Focus is Tier 4, and is basically the only use for it.

Do you actually use or for your builds ?

[thelee]

36 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

Yup, but as you say, it changes only for a couple clevel, mostly for SC because Greatest Focus is Tier 4, and is basically the only use for it.

Do you actually use or for your builds ?

Keen Mind yes, virtually all the time. Greater Focus, less so (it might be obvious to say that the couple times I've played ascendant it is an anti-synergy, among other things).

 

I was only giving one example with the puppet master from stealth.

Edited June 3, 2020 by thelee

[Elric Galad]

12 hours ago, thelee said:

Keen Mind yes, virtually all the time. Greater Focus, less so (it might be obvious to say that the couple times I've played ascendant it is an anti-synergy, among other things).

 

I was only giving one example with the puppet master from stealth.

Thanks for your feedback.

However, I still feel that these abilities may be useful at low level but could be less significant later on.
Do you guys think that a bonus based on class level (to end up around 20-30) could be OK ?

[Boeroer]

Yeas - some form of PL-scaling would be nice.