Balance Polishing Mod Release 1.0

[NotDumbEnough]

I suspect this is a base game bug as it seems familiar, but with just Greater Wildstrike (not Wildstrike Frenzy) my Fury Spiritshift duration is going up with every crit. Here I have 120+ seconds duration remaining because I kept getting crits against the Eoten

 

Not sure if it's a Fury bug or a bug with Greater Wildstrike

[Elric Galad]

5 hours ago, NotDumbEnough said:

I suspect this is a base game bug as it seems familiar, but with just Greater Wildstrike (not Wildstrike Frenzy) my Fury Spiritshift duration is going up with every crit. Here I have 120+ seconds duration remaining because I kept getting crits against the Eoten

 

Not sure if it's a Fury bug or a bug with Greater Wildstrike

This is weird.

I checked the code but I see nothing suspicious.

I tried in-game but Crits do not extand Spiritshift Storm duration. 

Do other users have this bug too ?

 

Beware there have been a couple renaming of Druid Spiritshift/Wildstrike files, maybe you have older files still in your BPM directory ?

Edited May 1, 2022 by Elric Galad

[NotDumbEnough]

No, it is a base game bug. I managed to find another record of this:

 

However, it is not quite complete. This bug also triggers if you kill an enemy, and then land crits, it seems. Even without Wildstrike Frenzy as in my example.

[Elric Galad]

8 hours ago, NotDumbEnough said:

I suspect this is a base game bug as it seems familiar, but with just Greater Wildstrike (not Wildstrike Frenzy) my Fury Spiritshift duration is going up with every crit. Here I have 120+ seconds duration remaining because I kept getting crits against the Eoten

 

Not sure if it's a Fury bug or a bug with Greater Wildstrike

The good thing is that the new BPM +10% damages on Kill seems to be only triggered by actual kills from your picture.

It is important because the issue looks like an hardcode bug to a Status effect property. The +10% damages isn't implemented this way, so changing the code to implement the duration prolongement the same way as the damage bonus will likely correct the bug.

It would be nice to find all concerned abilities. Fury, Chanter's Might/Res/Con invocation, others ?

Edited May 1, 2022 by Elric Galad

[dgray62]

I just downloaded the new BPM version, and tried out a FF/shifter. I must say, the dual weapon damage when shifted is great. Thanks, @Elric Galad!

[Jayd]

@Elric GaladI think when you uploaded the most recent version I felt it a little in my soul because I’ve suddenly been thinking about Deadfire this week after having not played for a while and then I come back to find the best balance change I could have hoped for. I love shapeshifting more than anything in RPGs and these changes to Spiritshift look like great adjustments which are in line with the vanilla experience while being more generous to people (like me) who try to build around this fantasy. Just wanted to say thank you for your continued work on this project. Your effort is deeply appreciated!

[Jayd]

@Elric Galad I was wondering whether it would be possible to implement the cooldown to each of the Shifter's forms individually instead of as a global cooldown on all of them. I'm not asking you to make this change (though I'd like it if you did) - I just want to know whether it is possible and perhaps a note or two on what work would have to be done to implement it?

My reasoning is that the current global cooldown denies the Shifter some of its unique playstyle options and flexibility. For example, if you wanted to try a quirky (almost certainly underpowered but maybe fun?) Shifter/Chanter or Shifter/Cipher who uses animal form to build up their spells, then reverts back to cast before immediaetly taking animal form again. Or, if you wanted to try some kind of low-INT build focused on Spiritshift and use the Shifter's multiple animal forms to compensate. These kinds of offbeat options certainly aren't overpowered or cheesy but the current implementation of the cooldown takes them away.

The cooldown is also, of course, a nerf to the Shifter in anything other than megaboss fights and maybe a couple SSS fights, because in any other fights (mid-late game, I'll get to early game in a second) you are not going to use all your animal forms anyway. So, the cooldown is strictly a penalty compared to vanilla for the vast majority of the game (maybe this was intentional...?). This is worse in early game when your shift durations are still quite short, and fights don't drag on for ages, so hitting the cooldown just makes it more likely that you'll get killed. Again, maybe intentional, but the end result is that, while the cooldown is a straight buff to every other Druid subclass, it's a straight nerf to the Shifter (except megabosses) despite being in the buff package.

What I would like to try is a 120s (or higher) cooldown for each of the Shifter's forms independently. That would be insignificant compared to vanilla in normal play but would mean that the Shifter doesn't have a hard time limit to its playstyle in very long fights (virtually just megabosses). And it would make some of the more unique, quirky, suboptimal uses of the subclass more viable where the current implementation just makes them impossible. But is this doable? I took a peek in the file and to my novice eyes it looks like it might not be.

 

Also @dgray62 check your inbox, I'm trying to ask you about Forbidden Fist stuff!

Edited May 15, 2022 by Jayd

[Elric Galad]

3 hours ago, Jayd said:

@Elric Galad I was wondering whether it would be possible to implement the cooldown to each of the Shifter's forms individually instead of as a global cooldown on all of them. I'm not asking you to make this change (though I'd like it if you did) - I just want to know whether it is possible and perhaps a note or two on what work would have to be done to implement it?

Yes, it is technically feasible. Slightly tedious, but not so much. Cooldown for Spiritshift is already BPM biggest change by far in term of file size.

3 hours ago, Jayd said:

My reasoning is that the current global cooldown denies the Shifter some of its unique playstyle options and flexibility. For example, if you wanted to try a quirky (almost certainly underpowered but maybe fun?) Shifter/Chanter or Shifter/Cipher who uses animal form to build up their spells, then reverts back to cast before immediaetly taking animal form again. Or, if you wanted to try some kind of low-INT build focused on Spiritshift and use the Shifter's multiple animal forms to compensate. These kinds of offbeat options certainly aren't overpowered or cheesy but the current implementation of the cooldown takes them away.

The cooldown is also, of course, a nerf to the Shifter in anything other than megaboss fights and maybe a couple SSS fights, because in any other fights (mid-late game, I'll get to early game in a second) you are not going to use all your animal forms anyway. So, the cooldown is strictly a penalty compared to vanilla for the vast majority of the game (maybe this was intentional...?).

It IS intentional. Shifter is an overpowered subclass in Vanilla. How much time 5 cancellable forms would be worse than 1 single form that can cast spell in vanilla ?

Also consider that buffing underpowered forms and Wildstrike comparatively buffs shifter. Shifter can spend about 60% of its time in spiritshift form with the current setting.

The only reason Shifter is not seen as OP in vanilla is that Shifting becomes increasingly relevant at high druid levels.

3 hours ago, Jayd said:

This is worse in early game when your shift durations are still quite short, and fights don't drag on for ages, so hitting the cooldown just makes it more likely that you'll get killed. Again, maybe intentional, but the end result is that, while the cooldown is a straight buff to every other Druid subclass, it's a straight nerf to the Shifter (except megabosses) despite being in the buff package.

I know, but the code is entertwined so impossible to separate them.

3 hours ago, Jayd said:

What I would like to try is a 120s (or higher) cooldown for each of the Shifter's forms independently.

You can  

3 hours ago, Jayd said:

That would be insignificant compared to vanilla in normal play but would mean that the Shifter doesn't have a hard time limit to its playstyle in very long fights (virtually just megabosses). And it would make some of the more unique, quirky, suboptimal uses of the subclass more viable where the current implementation just makes them impossible. But is this doable? I took a peek in the file and to my novice eyes it looks like it might not be.

It is not impossible but even with BPM basis it would be tedious.

You need to copy 5 times the cooldown status, allocate it for each form, and allow shifting for each form based on this particular status. I can't see another change to make but Cooldown for shifting has surprised me several times with side effects.

[Jayd]

24 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

Yes, it is technically feasible. Slightly tedious, but not so much. Cooldown for Spiritshift is already BPM biggest change by far in term of file size.

It IS intentional. Shifter is an overpowered subclass in Vanilla. How much time 5 cancellable forms would be worse than 1 single form that can cast spell in vanilla ?

Also consider that buffing underpowered forms and Wildstrike comparatively buffs shifter. Shifter can spend about 60% of its time in spiritshift form with the current setting.

The only reason Shifter is not seen as OP in vanilla is that Shifting becomes increasingly relevant at high druid levels.

I know, but the code is entertwined so impossible to separate them.

You can  

It is not impossible but even with BPM basis it would be tedious.

You need to copy 5 times the cooldown status, allocate it for each form, and allow shifting for each form based on this particular status. I can't see another change to make but Cooldown for shifting has surprised me several times with side effects.

Thanks very much for the response. My perspective is that specifically because shifting becomes increasingly irrelevant (I think that's what you meant) at high levels, the vanilla Shifter can't be considered overpowered - it's just a choice in emphasizing a playstyle. Not having substantial downsides doesn't make something comparatively more powerful if, in the final analysis, it's not noticeably more effective at overcoming the game's challenges than what it's being compared to. And for a Druid that's not focused on shifting all the time, what free spells you get is a much bigger deal than whether or not you have five shifts. Anyway, that's just my perspective. I respect yours and don't want to start a debate.

I'll probably see if I can figure out the code when I have some time to spare. Thanks for the hints. If I can't, there are always less elegant solutions ('set duration: 10' or 'delete key')

[NotDumbEnough]

One of the largest imbalances remaining in the game, IMO, is food bonuses being buggy and sometimes stacking and sometimes not. Would it be feasible to make all resting bonuses stackable but a bit weaker (maybe halve the effects of food in general) so that there would be less RNG in this regard? Would also make choosing resting bonuses less of a Sudoku game where you choose the buffs you can't get elsewhere instead of the ones that might benefit you the most.

[Elric Galad]

6 hours ago, NotDumbEnough said:

One of the largest imbalances remaining in the game, IMO, is food bonuses being buggy and sometimes stacking and sometimes not. Would it be feasible to make all resting bonuses stackable but a bit weaker (maybe halve the effects of food in general) so that there would be less RNG in this regard? Would also make choosing resting bonuses less of a Sudoku game where you choose the buffs you can't get elsewhere instead of the ones that might benefit you the most.

Yeah, I agree it's annoying. I was thinking about it a few weeks ago (just before struggling with arguably the most annoying flu of my life... still coughing after 4 weeks).

Technically I have 2 options :

- Make them always stackable (should work)
- Make them never stackable (should most likely work)

Tweaking the values would be a headache. What are you supposed to tweak with from +1 PL ? +0.75 stackable ?
I don't want to do that. Whatever the option, I'll keep the original values for food.

 

So either I make a big leap and go with always stackable (kind of powercreep, but granted how easy it is to trick it, not so much).

Or I could go with the safe path and choose never stackable as it should have been.  

[NotDumbEnough]

Never stackable would be better then, I think.

[thelee]

17 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

(just before struggling with arguably the most annoying flu of my life... still coughing after 4 weeks).

may not have been just the flu, mate.

 

17 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

- Make them never stackable (should most likely work)

this was probably the original intent, so this would be the best O_O-b

[Jayd]

Alright family, mission accomplished. My Shifter forms now have independent cooldowns (it was way easier than I'd feared).

I plan to play with it a while to see if there's any unexpected behaviour and fiddle with the cooldowns. They're at 180s right now. My pet goal is to have playable Shifter/Cipher or Chanter builds that go back and forth to cast spells while still making you have to think twice about shifting back and forth too quickly if you don't want to get locked out. I don't know how long it will be before I test something like that properly though - work is rough right now and don't have a ton of time to play.

Happy to make it available to others if there's any interest. Maybe when I'm happy with it I can upload it to my own Nexus as an optional rule change for BPM? Would that be appropriate, Elric?

Oh, I've also changed that other file to make bear claws Slash/Crush and boar tusks Pierce/Crush. Thought those suited a mauling bear and charging boar better 

Edited May 17, 2022 by Jayd

[Elric Galad]

5 hours ago, Jayd said:

Happy to make it available to others if there's any interest. Maybe when I'm happy with it I can upload it to my own Nexus as an optional rule change for BPM? Would that be appropriate, Elric?

Sure, just put the appropriate link and credit !

[NotDumbEnough]

Suggest adding an extremely minor instant damage effect to Soul Ignition and Disintegration. Can be literally 1 damage. The game doesn't count damage over time for damage counters (so, for example, you cannot level up soulbound weapons that require you to deal X damage with just damage over time spells), but in the Cipher's case this also means that they don't trigger Death of 1000 Cuts as one might expect.

[Elric Galad]

1 hour ago, NotDumbEnough said:

Suggest adding an extremely minor instant damage effect to Soul Ignition and Disintegration. Can be literally 1 damage. The game doesn't count damage over time for damage counters (so, for example, you cannot level up soulbound weapons that require you to deal X damage with just damage over time spells), but in the Cipher's case this also means that they don't trigger Death of 1000 Cuts as one might expect.

I don't like it too much. That's unfortunate indeed, but it would make these spells complicated.

[dgray62]

17 hours ago, Jayd said:

Happy to make it available to others if there's any interest. Maybe when I'm happy with it I can upload it to my own Nexus as an optional rule change for BPM? Would that be appropriate, Elric?

I would definitely be interested, @Jayd. Like you, I like being able to quickly switch among the forms when playing a shifter. When the mod is available please let us know.

Regarding @NotDumbEnough's suggestion, I would recommend not changing this. I believe that the lack of initial damage lets you cast disintegration on foes without breaking stealth or charm, which can be very nice for some builds.

Edited May 17, 2022 by dgray62
Additional Information

[NotDumbEnough]

Not sure if a base game bug or related to the fix that skips the need to roll for attacks against corpses, White Worms Writhed is receiving a +6 accuracy from PL bonus even though I'm only level 3. Ability level bonus is appropriately +2. Other abilities seem to work fine.

[dgray62]

I recently noticed that I am no longer getting the backstab damage bonus after downloading the later BPM patch. I still get the backstab icon while stealthed, but when I attack from stealth or invisibility there's no bonus damage and no backstab animation.

[NotDumbEnough]

Backstab only works in close range, are you sure you are up close?

[dgray62]

Yes, up close and stealthed. I never had a problem with it until now.

[Elric Galad]

On 5/21/2022 at 3:11 AM, NotDumbEnough said:

Not sure if a base game bug or related to the fix that skips the need to roll for attacks against corpses, White Worms Writhed is receiving a +6 accuracy from PL bonus even though I'm only level 3. Ability level bonus is appropriately +2. Other abilities seem to work fine.

Ok, I'll check

 

Does anyone else have the backstab issue on stealth ?

[Not So Clever Hound]

6 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

Does anyone else have the backstab issue on stealth ?

Yes me too, I just checked.

[NotDumbEnough]

Tested Thunderous Report against Ishiza. Backstab seemed to work fine.