Balance Polishing Mod Release 1.0

[Exanos]

Yes, i love the way you tweaked theses (and generally all) ability.

Would have loved to see a fast cast point blank lightning damage with stun/paralyse for survivability as a PL6 PL7 though

Edit : for fury, i feel the blight form is meh. There is no real situation (except teleport) where staying in the form is a bonus. Maybe  (massively) boosting damage or adding item spells to this form can be another option. Like at pl6 you unlock the seven bolt, pl8 the crakling bolt etc...

 

Edit 2 : for weather the storm, is it possible to add a Xpoint damage shield vs elemental attack (or swap the +AR for a bigger shield)? Would help to difference it vs scrolls or forl of the delemgan

 

Edited April 6, 2022 by Exanos

[Elric Galad]

4 hours ago, Exanos said:

Edit : for fury, i feel the blight form is meh. There is no real situation (except teleport) where staying in the form is a bonus. Maybe  (massively) boosting damage or adding item spells to this form can be another option. Like at pl6 you unlock the seven bolt, pl8 the crakling bolt etc...

The main interest of any Spiritshift form is the 0% recovery armor with a base AR 8. That's 5 points of AR above standard clothes.

BPM added bonus PL to the corresponding elements to all 4 wildstrikes, so your weapons always act as a caster stick.

You have 2 nice small abilities.

And Fury Spiritshift weapons are actually very good : they do a good portion of other forms weapon damages while being ranged and hitting 2 targets.

SC has Spirit Frenzy, which is basically better with that form since you hit more targets (so more crits). Spirit Frenzy is really nice with BPM Entropy.

So basically, I think is form is a bit above the other ones, so I don't see the necessity of boosting it.

4 hours ago, Exanos said:

Edit 2 : for weather the storm, is it possible to add a Xpoint damage shield vs elemental attack (or swap the +AR for a bigger shield)? Would help to difference it vs scrolls or forl of the delemgan

Good idea in general, but the damage shield is currently specific to Llegrath own special unique shield spell, so I'm a bit reluctant to give it to another ability.

Edited April 6, 2022 by Elric Galad

[Exanos]

2 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

The main interest of any Spiritshift form is the 0% recovery armor with a base AR 8. That's 5 points of AR above standard clothes.

BPM added bonus PL to the corresponding elements to all 4 wildstrikes, so your weapons always act as a caster stick.

You have 2 nice small abilities.

And Fury Spiritshift weapons are actually very good : does a good portion of other forms weapons while being ranged and hitting 2 targets.

So basically, I think is form is a bit above the other ones, so I don't see the necessity of boosting it.

Well, my experience with fury is that the +2PL elec from wildstrike is overshadowed by +2PL from ezzali armor in link  with +3PL for storm  from LDV (even worse now with the nice found around Effort hemoraging enchant procing AS and gauntlet proc for every spell crits, it make Effort a clear winner for damage boost...)

The 0 recovery is real nice true, but even with heavy armor i can cast most of my spells during a fight. (Post PL9 its worst : one maelstrom can end the fight very quickly, even on POTD). I very rarely use AA with a fury, maybe in early game but it end quickly... 

For me the best form is the boar with the DOT and regen or the bear for tanking. Even for multiclassing, blight is not that great (others weapons have more interesting build in jump).

[Elric Galad]

8 minutes ago, Exanos said:

Well, my experience with fury is that the +2PL elec from wildstrike is overshadowed by +2PL from ezzali armor in link  with +3PL for storm  from LDV (even worse now with the nice found around Effort hemoraging enchant procing AS and gauntlet proc for every spell crits, it make Effort a clear winner for damage boost...)

Don't tempt me into nerfing hemoraging abuses.

It least I won't balance other abilities to compete it  

The answer is simple : Don't pick elec Wildstrike. So you can cast your Elec spells while bearing your Elec/Storm panoply, and Spiritshift to use Moonwell + Water/Ice Wildstrike or Rusted Armor + Corrode/Decay Wildstrike, or whatever.  

Ah and Water/Ice Wildstrike is +4PL to Maelstrom due to double KW (from CP). That's quite close for avoiding +55% Recovery. 

8 minutes ago, Exanos said:

The 0 recovery is real nice true, but even with heavy armor i can cast most of my spells during a fight.

Then play with a Cipher buddy  so you could cast more than most of your spells.

8 minutes ago, Exanos said:

(Post PL9 its worst : one maelstrom can end the fight very quickly, even on POTD). I very rarely use AA with a fury, maybe in early game but it end quickly... 

No idea what AA stands for here.

8 minutes ago, Exanos said:

For me the best form is the boar with the DOT and regen or the bear for tanking. Even for multiclassing, blight is not that great (others weapons have more interesting build in jump).

Boar is indeed great. That doesn't discard Fury being the only ranged Spirishift with fairly good damages (most likely more than boar, instant but splitted).

By the way Elec is a far better damage type than pierce.

[Exanos]

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Don't tempt me into nerfing hemoraging abuses.

It least I won't balance other abilities to compete it  

Please don't^^ it's fun  and yeah, balancing other abilities to compete with it is dumb.

Quote

The answer is simple : Don't pick elec Wildstrike. So you can cast your Elec spells while bearing your Elec/Storm panoply, and Spiritshift to use Moonwell + Water/Ice Wildstrike or Rusted Armor + Corrode/Decay Wildstrike, or whatever.  

Ah and Water/Ice Wildstrike is +4PL to Maelstrom due to double KW (from CP). That's quite close for avoiding +55% Recovery. 

Rusted armor and Corrode wildstrike passive stack? If yes i overlooked it. I found +55% recovery on (mostly) 3s recovery spells t is not that painfull (way worst than 0 for sure), i use abraham pet mostly for such build. For a fury druid their best spells are elec worded so even +4 water/frost won't make me pick it (and no moonwell :/) it will be an entire other story for other subclass.

 

 

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Then play with a Cipher buddy  so you could cast more than most of your spells.

I missphrased, sorry  (not my native language as you may have guessed :P)  What i wanted to say is than starting from lvl 8-9 (so quite early), i still have some spells to cast at the end of each fight. Only very early or on rare event (like some SSS fight) i may struggle. Even then, a bit or arcana for some scrolls (or a cipher as you say) can ease this. My feeling is than as a fury, casting spells is more impacting than AA (auto attacking  ), different story for a shifter, but then, no blight form. The jump is nice but few way to use it effectively : other jump weapon are easy to get and can AoE to apply effect (like rogue poison/blind). Vs multiple opponents, your spells are better (AoE king), and vs single target (like a boss), the jump is useless, and single damage very low. The chance to interrup on crit is nice (for wildstrike elec), but vs a boss, not that easy to crit for a SC druid.

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Boar is indeed great. That doesn't discard Fury being the only ranged Spirishift with fairly good damages (most likely more than boar, instant but splitted).

By the way Elec is a far better damage type than pierce.

Blight form is not bad in anyway, i just feel it's not optimal to use it (except early game). Elec is indeed really nice and the lash is quite potent, but again, there is an hunting bow with elec damage very early... 

Having better passive bonus or let's say a permanent active effect while blight shifted (like returning storm) will make it more incentive to use (at least for me).

So sad than cat form > blight form for a caster druid

Edit : i assume playing in a group, in solo the teleport from blightform can be a life saver.

Edited April 6, 2022 by Exanos

[Elric Galad]

3 hours ago, Exanos said:

Rusted armor and Corrode wildstrike passive stack? If yes i overlooked it.

Yes (because Wildstrike Frenzy is a passive) but that's not what I was saying. BPM Wildstrike abilities give +1 PL to the corresponding element while shifted, +2 PL for Greater Wildstike. BPM Corrode Wildstrike is +1 /+2 PL to Decay/Acid tagged. Rusted armor (and Entropy) is tagged Decay so it works.

3 hours ago, Exanos said:

I found +55% recovery on (mostly) 3s recovery spells t is not that painfull (way worst than 0 for sure), i use abraham pet mostly for such build. For a fury druid their best spells are elec worded so even +4 water/frost won't make me pick it (and no moonwell :/)

You're speaking like you had to choose. +3 Storm +2 Elec while not shifted, +2 Water +2 Frost while shifted, with instant transition between the two.

Also Supporting Frost druid  (it needs a bit of love) is one of the reason I'm picking Greater Ice Blight as Conjure Greater Blight summon.

3 hours ago, Exanos said:

it will be an entire other story for other subclass.

Agreed on Moonwell. Overwhelming Wave is a decent pick on the same level (especially when using a chanter so you can use aefyllath ues mith fyr to negate the Water Wave damages on your party member)

3 hours ago, Exanos said:

 

I missphrased, sorry  (not my native language as you may have guessed :P)  What i wanted to say is than starting from lvl 8-9 (so quite early), i still have some spells to cast at the end of each fight. Only very early or on rare event (like some SSS fight) i may struggle. Even then, a bit or arcana for some scrolls (or a cipher as you say) can ease this. My feeling is than as a fury, casting spells is more impacting than AA (auto attacking  ),

Certainly. Late game, you won't AA during most fights. 

3 hours ago, Exanos said:

different story for a shifter, but then, no blight form.

Honestly, not really. Late game shifter has no more reasons to shift.

3 hours ago, Exanos said:

The jump is nice but few way to use it effectively : other jump weapon are easy to get and can AoE to apply effect (like rogue poison/blind). Vs multiple opponents, your spells are better (AoE king), and vs single target (like a boss), the jump is useless, and single damage very low.

That is a good point.

3 hours ago, Exanos said:

The chance to interrup on crit is nice (for wildstrike elec), but vs a boss, not that easy to crit for a SC druid.

BPM Entropy disagrees.

3 hours ago, Exanos said:

Blight form is not bad in anyway, i just feel it's not optimal to use it (except early game). Elec is indeed really nice and the lash is quite potent, but again, there is an hunting bow with elec damage very early... 

Having better passive bonus or let's say a permanent active effect while blight shifted (like returning storm) will make it more incentive to use (at least for me).

So sad than cat form > blight form for a caster druid

Well, sort of. Fury has for it the extended duration and staying in Blight Form gives good AR, but I see the point.

Fury Shift is more about being ranged and not more about being a caster. But somehow, it is not that good at being ranged due to being middle of the road between Single Target and AoE.

That said I just realized that Storm Blight Spiritshift has the same attack speed as Cat form. So it deals 87,5% damages of other Spiritshift (bar Cat and Boar) on its main target. This is a good percentage from range. Their AA is good, the issue is that it doesn't have a clear purpose when compared to spells.

Edited April 6, 2022 by Elric Galad

[Exanos]

50 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

That said I just realized that Storm Blight Spiritshift has the same attack speed as Cat form. So it deals 87,5% damages of other Spiritshift (bar Cat and Boar) on its main target. This is a good percentage from range. Their AA is good, the issue is that it doesn't have a clear purpose when compared to spells.

Well say. I need to work more with entropy, still used to vanilla version (BPM's one much better, just realized it... :s ) ... Raaahhh : Avenging storm & BPM entropy on the same PL is a bit sadistic  

[NotDumbEnough]

Minor suggestion for rangers:

Give animal companions +1 base PEN and base AR, and reduce the bonuses in the skill tree to +1 rather than +2.  So that rangers feel less compelled to take the +2 pen and +2 AR passives for their pets as they do right now, otherwise the pets feel useless.

 

I also think Perception + Intellect resistance for pets is a bit weak for one skill point. There are not that many intellect afflictions out there (and honestly I often don't care too much even if the companion gets charmed). I wonder if it would be too powerful if it simply gave resistance to all afflictions, or +defenses against affliction attacks like fighter and paladin passives.

Edited April 7, 2022 by NotDumbEnough

[Elric Galad]

22 hours ago, Exanos said:

Well say. I need to work more with entropy, still used to vanilla version (BPM's one much better, just realized it... :s ) ... Raaahhh : Avenging storm & BPM entropy on the same PL is a bit sadistic  

Easy, Entropy + Wildstrike for groups, Avenging Storm + normal Blunderbuss vs single target  

2 hours ago, NotDumbEnough said:

Minor suggestion for rangers:

Give animal companions +1 base PEN and base AR, and reduce the bonuses in the skill tree to +1 rather than +2.  So that rangers feel less compelled to take the +2 pen and +2 AR passives for their pets as they do right now, otherwise the pets feel useless.

The AR passive is not necessary for Ghostheart and the +2 AR feels overall balanced for this case.

+2 PEN +15% damages talent is indeed hard to pass. I could change it to +1 PEN +15% damage and give +1 PEN to pet attacks. But the talent would feel still a bit necessary, so I think tweaking it is a bit unnecessary. I must draw a red line for my Modditisis.

2 hours ago, NotDumbEnough said:

I also think Perception + Intellect resistance for pets is a bit weak for one skill point. There are not that many intellect afflictions out there (and honestly I often don't care too much even if the companion gets charmed). I wonder if it would be too powerful if it simply gave resistance to all afflictions, or +defenses against affliction attacks like fighter and paladin passives.

Not so much IMHO. I tend to value pet talent half the corresponding value for a character. 1 talent = 1 resistance for characters, to 1 talent = 2 resistance for pet feels right. It is not a mandatory talent.

It probably situational talent, but for a party without Mowdyr or Devil of Caroc Breastplate, having a character that can "tank" those spore and gets another resistance on top of that is OK. For a Tier 1 Talent at least.

 

Other update :

For Weather the Storm, I will finally add +5 Crush AR.

Actually, there are several Storm spell that deals Crush damages, so it makes sense.

Basically fits Fury playstyle by protecting your party... from your own AoE  (including Maelstorm that deals Crush damages !)

And Crush AR is rare enough to worth a Tier 7 spell slot !

 

Still thinking about Fury Spiritshift. Now start to thinking there could be indeed some tweaking to do.

Edited April 7, 2022 by Elric Galad

[Exanos]

2 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

Other update :

For Weather the Storm, I will finally add +5 Crush AR.

Actually, there are several Storm spell that deals Crush damages, so it makes sense.

Basically fits Fury playstyle by protecting your party... from your own AoE  (including Maelstorm that deals Crush damages !)

And Crush AR is rare enough to worth a Tier 7 spell slot !

 

Still thinking about Fury Spiritshift. Now start to thinking there could be indeed some tweaking to do.

Seem nice for Weather the Storm.

For fury spiritshift, different possibilities :

- autoattack : buff damage for first target, nerf for the second

- autoattack :  remove jump, add an aoe (like mortar)

- autoattack : add a 2s stun on crit

- add bound abilities at different PL (1 use per encounter)

- give it a "free" unlimited use of an elec spell (long cast/medium recovery for no abuse) like the PL1 cipher's one

- give it a permanent active effect (like returning storm), maybe something togeable with a negative effect too (like can't move)

- add a bonus PL to all storm/elec spell while shifted (something like +2 to make it on line with LDV)

edit :

- autoattack : like for LDV, add a stacking charge on hit and proc on crit

edit 2 (the heavy change) :

- add all precedent changes, but remove the abilitie to cast spells (like shifter) -> make the blight a living battery

Edited April 7, 2022 by Exanos

[NotDumbEnough]

I think Fury Spiritshift is fine, and is in fact better than most of the melee spiritshifts. You can proc Wildstrike Frenzy off of the bounces (making the attack AOE like mortars would be utterly broken), and keep in mind that there are lots and lots of ways to buff ranged weapon attacks in the game (Quick-Handed Ila chant, Shrimp's ring, multiple pets with party wide ranged attack bonuses, etc.) than there are melee attacks. Furies also make better use of Avenging Storm than the other spiritshifts.

[Elric Galad]

Ok, I've tested non-random Blight summon.

And wow it feels great.

Tier 4 Flame Blight can spam fan of flames, has a self-buff and explose on death (I made it scaling, for both summons and foes, like I did for passive player abilities). It is a very fine Fire spell (Tier 4 didn't have one).

Tier 6 Ice Blight is super cool (  ), it has AoE and debuffs. VERY nice summon. Encourage going Frost druid.

This change is even more critical for druid summoning capabilities than scaling armor and weapon was IMHO. The duration is short but their powers are great. I must really stress how the predictability change the feeling of the spell. (Call to the primordial is "less random" since you summon several creatures, evenning a bit the odds).

 

Lesser Storm Blight is bugged. Not the summon, the creature as a whole. It has a range of 5m but actually hit only in melee. I will correct this. I will also make Storm Blights "weapon" damages more progressive, as it is the case for other blights.

Currently :

- Lesser :     5m, 4-7 damages, 7 PEN, no bounce
- Average : 10m, 8-13 damages, 8 PEN, 1 bounce 80% damages*
- Greater  : 10m, 12-17 damages, 9 PEN, 1 bounce 80% damages

Target :

- Lesser :    10m, 8-13 damages, 7 PEN, 1 bounce 80% damages
- Average : 10m, 10-15 damages, 8 PEN, 1 bounce 80% damages*
- Greater  : 10m, 12-17 damages, 9 PEN, 1 bounce 80% damages

Then Lesser Storm Blight will feel legit as a Tier 2 summon. It is basically an auto-attacker with ability to Teleport at will (with slow activation).

 

6 hours ago, NotDumbEnough said:

I think Fury Spiritshift is fine, and is in fact better than most of the melee spiritshifts. You can proc Wildstrike Frenzy off of the bounces (making the attack AOE like mortars would be utterly broken), and keep in mind that there are lots and lots of ways to buff ranged weapon attacks in the game (Quick-Handed Ila chant, Shrimp's ring, multiple pets with party wide ranged attack bonuses, etc.) than there are melee attacks. Furies also make better use of Avenging Storm than the other spiritshifts.

That's what I thought, but @Exanos pointed, even if it is well-rounded, it doesn't feel optimal. Avenging Storm might be better than with other shift, BUT less optimal than using a blunderbuss for example.

And I think that Fury having no choice with their form should get one a bit better.

 

* The Average Storm Blight has the Fury weapon. So it will boost a bit Fury damages.
10-15 shock 8 PEN 3s recovery is very good, I think.
It is basically as much other shifts (bar Cat), at range, with bounce, so fairly respectable as an auto-attack, even against single target.

 

Then there is the casting while shifted being inferior to caster sticks.

I don't think this is a Fury specific issue. 

That's why I'm currently thinking about buffing my modded Wilstrike(Greater) from +1(+2) to :
1) +2(+4) Power Level bonus to the corresponding element
2) +2(+3) Power Level if it is a bit too much
3) starts as +1(+2), get some scaling later on to end up at +2(+4) Power Level

This would be close from what you get from top caster sticks. (Deltro's Cage comes with a huge +55% recovery drawback, so I would say it is more about competing with the weapons).

I don't want to mix Wildtrike Frenzy with this change (MC Spiritshift should work, and Wildstrike Frenzy is good enough in its current state).

Obviously, I will let Maelstorm only with Frost (from CP) and not Water KW, because double benefit would be too much.

What would you think of such change ? (especially the values)

 

A Storm Blight shift, extended by its damage spell kills, with a neat auto-attack (even vs singe target, but with a nice bounce) and a serious boost to one element should be good.

 

Twin Stones :

I think I will tweak the spell so each projectile explode on the first target, not Wall.

So that's 12-20 Crush to 2 targets.

Plus 2 AoE 15-28 Pierce.

With proper aim (Risk), it has good damages (Reward). At Point Blank, you can even have it all on 1 target, but you'll suffer the AoE too (Woodskin could help). Maybe I will tweak down the damages value a bit.

Edited April 8, 2022 by Elric Galad

[NotDumbEnough]

The problem with your proposed Spiritshift changes, I think, is that there is no reason to NOT be in spiritshift form unless it is on cooldown or you are a Shifter. You fight better AND you cast better (though admittedly druids are still kind of terrible at fighting even while spiritshifted).

I think Spiritshifting should primarily boost your martial capabilities, and for its duration let you fight as well as a martial class. Some tentative suggestions for Wildstrike Frenzy (i.e. limited to single-class Druids so cannot be utilized by multiclassing with a martial class like rogues):

1. Simply boost weapon accuracy as it is for priest summoned weapons. As it stands right now Tekehu is terrible at fighting even with Wildstrike Frenzy because druids simply do not have any martial-related passive abilities to back up their Spiritshift, and this would help.

2. Or, instead heal for a portion of the damage you deal, like Concelhaut's Parasitic Staff. This gives your spiritshift even more of a unique identity: you can use it as a self-heal if you are injured and cannot afford to keep casting, and it fits the theme of a wild animal tearing their enemy apart and eating them. Druids already have Taste of the Hunt, but it feels more like a meme ability and is not even that good for healing, with the damage over time being the primary attraction.

3. Some sort of defensive boost would be useful on top of the spiritshift armor, such as +max health like Priest's Minor Avatar.

 

The Fury Spiritshift could also be made more unique by gaining +Storm PL while spiritshifted, so it remains a casting-focused spiritshift as it already is right now.

Edited April 8, 2022 by NotDumbEnough

[NotDumbEnough]

I suspect that the stag pet for rangers is having all their attacks scale by PL and not just their pseudo-carnage. I am getting >12 base damage rolls on their basic attacks, including grazes, hits, and crits.

 

Hmmm maybe I am just going crazy. I tweaked the mod file so that stag carnage scaled by 5000% per PL. Stag base damage is still only a bit over 12 damage but carnage is doing hundreds of damage as you might expect. I guess the stag pet has undocumented naturally higher base damage like the wolf, rather than scaling by PL.

Edited April 8, 2022 by NotDumbEnough

[Exanos]

5 hours ago, NotDumbEnough said:

The problem with your proposed Spiritshift changes, I think, is that there is no reason to NOT be in spiritshift form unless it is on cooldown or you are a Shifter. You fight better AND you cast better (though admittedly druids are still kind of terrible at fighting even while spiritshifted).

I think Spiritshifting should primarily boost your martial capabilities, and for its duration let you fight as well as a martial class. Some tentative suggestions for Wildstrike Frenzy (i.e. limited to single-class Druids so cannot be utilized by multiclassing with a martial class like rogues):

1. Simply boost weapon accuracy as it is for priest summoned weapons. As it stands right now Tekehu is terrible at fighting even with Wildstrike Frenzy because druids simply do not have any martial-related passive abilities to back up their Spiritshift, and this would help.

2. Or, instead heal for a portion of the damage you deal, like Concelhaut's Parasitic Staff. This gives your spiritshift even more of a unique identity: you can use it as a self-heal if you are injured and cannot afford to keep casting, and it fits the theme of a wild animal tearing their enemy apart and eating them. Druids already have Taste of the Hunt, but it feels more like a meme ability and is not even that good for healing, with the damage over time being the primary attraction.

3. Some sort of defensive boost would be useful on top of the spiritshift armor, such as +max health like Priest's Minor Avatar.

 

The Fury Spiritshift could also be made more unique by gaining +Storm PL while spiritshifted, so it remains a casting-focused spiritshift as it already is right now.

Well, there is a balance to found beetween - "There is actually no reason to be in spiritform (current fury druid)" and "There is no reason to not-be in spiritform". I feel adding scaling PL to one element is fine without getting broken. Even with this not sure staying in spiritform will outperform weapon bonus (multiclass shifter/martial and lifegiver appart, which already had good reason to shift. Only vanilla Boarform as a broken weapon attack.

-> Lance of Mildwood stag &  Spine of thicket green will still be stat king for non-fury, non-shifter druid (you will maybe still want to quick shift to cat form for the speed bonus and shift back to human right after).

For me spiritshifting is not limited to boost martial abilities, but to emphasis a certain aspect of the subclass. It should be core to the way you play druid. It's actually not the case for all subclass. When while using your (time limited) spiritshift you have more lost than gain, balance is wrong and it become a poor feature. That's my personnal feeling about Fury druid form. (Other subclass can at least use the cat speed boost).

 

[Hoo]

I'm not sure whether the PL bonuses of both Wilstrike and Greater Wildstrike are the best fit for those abilities, because the abilities are suited for Shifter due to the auto-attacking damage boosts but currently the PL bonuses seems much more suitable for the other subclasses and Shifter cannot cast spells while spiritshifting so the sublcass barely benefits from the PL bonus. 

By the way, I think the bounce effect from Fury spiritshift form would be better to be replaced with something different, just because Driving Flight cannot be applied on top of the bouncing. I've been disappointed about the implementation so far.

Edited April 8, 2022 by Hoo

[Elric Galad]

2 hours ago, NotDumbEnough said:

I suspect that the stag pet for rangers is having all their attacks scale by PL and not just their pseudo-carnage. I am getting >12 base damage rolls on their basic attacks, including grazes, hits, and crits.

 

Hmmm maybe I am just going crazy. I tweaked the mod file so that stag carnage scaled by 5000% per PL. Stag base damage is still only a bit over 12 damage but carnage is doing hundreds of damage as you might expect. I guess the stag pet has undocumented naturally higher base damage like the wolf, rather than scaling by PL.

Well, it does 8-13 damages, scales as summoned weapon and there are plenty of talents that raise their damages. +9% from MIG.

At a certain point, the Companion Talent and scaling should compensate for the -100% damages from Graze.

It seems normal.

 

6 hours ago, NotDumbEnough said:

The problem with your proposed Spiritshift changes, I think, is that there is no reason to NOT be in spiritshift form unless it is on cooldown or you are a Shifter. You fight better AND you cast better (though admittedly druids are still kind of terrible at fighting even while spiritshifted).

It depends what you call "fight better" and "cast better". 

As stated above, Avenging Storm is going to be better with a Blunderbuss, or Frostseeker.

My wildstrike proposal will work only on 1 element. Sometimes, Griffin blade would be better.

Spiritshift weapons aren't the best in all cases, in the same fashion as the "there is no best weapon" debate. But they are indeed to be strong.

And Spiritshift armor is very strong.

It also costs 2-3 talents (plus DW talent) to get there, so it has to be superior in most case. That being said...

6 hours ago, NotDumbEnough said:

I think Spiritshifting should primarily boost your martial capabilities, and for its duration let you fight as well as a martial class.

Okay, that's an arguable design goal. Not so true for Lifegiver of course.

Also the current BPM Wildstrike is designed to give an advantage and flexibility to non shifter (so Shifter has a real drawback). But maybe centering spiritshift around casting is not a good design. So keeping the current +1(+2) PL might be enough. It favors the use of an alternate element without forcing you into it.

But maybe going for +2(+4) PL would make Shifting too much about casting.

It was more designed to give a reward to Wildstrike, rather than just keeping up with unique weapons.

6 hours ago, NotDumbEnough said:

Some tentative suggestions for Wildstrike Frenzy (i.e. limited to single-class Druids so cannot be utilized by multiclassing with a martial class like rogues):

1. Simply boost weapon accuracy as it is for priest summoned weapons. As it stands right now Tekehu is terrible at fighting even with Wildstrike Frenzy because druids simply do not have any martial-related passive abilities to back up their Spiritshift, and this would help.

2. Or, instead heal for a portion of the damage you deal, like Concelhaut's Parasitic Staff. This gives your spiritshift even more of a unique identity: you can use it as a self-heal if you are injured and cannot afford to keep casting, and it fits the theme of a wild animal tearing their enemy apart and eating them. Druids already have Taste of the Hunt, but it feels more like a meme ability and is not even that good for healing, with the damage over time being the primary attraction.

3. Some sort of defensive boost would be useful on top of the spiritshift armor, such as +max health like Priest's Minor Avatar.

 

The Fury Spiritshift could also be made more unique by gaining +Storm PL while spiritshifted, so it remains a casting-focused spiritshift as it already is right now.

Casting-focus spiritshift is not what Fury is currently. It is more a ranged specialist than a caster specialist. More range with spells (including when not shifted), ranged attacks, teleport...

But having Kills prolonging the duration leads to more casts when shifted. You have to want  to prolonge the effect in the case of Fury.

Not a super big fan of Storm KW based bonus, since it funnels Fury in a narrowed path than "Elements".

Edited April 8, 2022 by Elric Galad

[NotDumbEnough]

Yes, I must have misremembered the base damage range for ranger pets.

1 hour ago, Elric Galad said:

Also the current BPM Wildstrike is designed to give an advantage and flexibility to non shifter (so Shifter has a real drawback). But maybe centering spiritshift around casting is not a good design. So keeping the current +1(+2) PL might be enough. It favors the use of an alternate element without forcing you into it.

Arguably single class Shifters are worse than the other subclasses right now. Druids are pretty mediocre at fighting even with max level Wildstrike right now, and Shifter's primary advantage (shifting into animal form, quickly using the per encounter skills, shifting back to cast, shifting to another form to use per encounter skills again, etc.) is mostly gone now that they have a cooldown too and cannot rapidly shift back and forth between multiple forms.

 

Actually, I think that is the problem with Spiritshift in general. You are encouraged to shift, immediately use the per encounter abilities, then start casting and never really attack, which just turns your spiritshift weapons into free statsticks. I wonder if a system like this would help improve this issue:

1. Improve martial capabilities while spiritshifted substantially above what they are right now, perhaps like mentioned above or through some other buff. This includes a buff to Fury's form in particular. Maybe keep the PL bonus for Wildstrike, maybe don't.

2. Entering Spiritshift applies a -25% casting speed debuff upon you for an extended duration (same base duration as Spiritshift, reduced by resolve and -% hostile effect duration), and does not go away if you cancel the Spiritshift. You can only wait it out like a priest does after they cast an Incarnate. -25% casting speed is not the end of the world for spellcasting, but is enough to discourage spiritshifting just to spell cast (and will cancel out the cat form per encounter ability action speed bonus). Extending the spiritshift duration would not extend the debuff, so if the spiritshift goes on long enough you can cast without a penalty.

Note that you could cast first, then enter spiritshift to benefit from any Wildstrike-based PL bonuses without suffering cast time penalties for long-lasting spells like Avenging Storm.

3. Shifters would have no other downside other than that this debuff would be lengthened correspondingly to their longer spiritshift duration (so entering spiritshift rashly would have a greater penalty than for other druids). But they would gain the ability to cast while shifted just like any other subclass, it's just that you might not necessarily want to.

4. Lifegivers would get an even bigger bonus to Rejuvenation +PL (an extra +1-2 maybe) while spiritshifted to counterbalance the cast speed malus. Either you can cast first and then shift for a lower duration on your healing spells, or shift and then cast for a slower cast but longer duration.

Edited April 8, 2022 by NotDumbEnough

[Not So Clever Hound]

After multiple rounds of great improvement from BPM, Spiritshift continues to be an odd beast (pun intended). There are different valid opinions about what the spiritshift focus should be between the different subclass, what the unique selling point for shifting should be, how much of a true modal it should be...

In my mind, I'd like to play Druid conceptually like this:

1. Start the fight in kith form, cast some spells - in low-risk fights the druid can leave it there and doesn't have to show their animalistic side.
2. In tougher fights, after step 1 the druid realizes they need to make a difference - they decide to let the beast out, and that should be a BIG deal in terms of gameplay (e.g. all enemies are briefly frightened when the beast shows up, maybe the color tone of the display changes slightly to reflect animalistic vision, the opening roar is more impressive).
3. In spiritshift form the Druid should be strictly and MUCH better at doing what their subclass flavor is about, with unique perks: to me that would be uber/unique martial prowess for shifter, uber/unique elemental offensive casting for Fury, uber/unique beast/plant abilities for Ancient, uber/unique rejuvenation/resurrection for Lifegiver...
4. Spiritshift shouldn't be able to last forever but not feel super limiting in tough/long fights. Spiritshift should last longer as the druid gains levels and gets better mastery over their animalistic side. There should always be a clear downside coming back to kith form: letting the beast out is very taxing and shifting back to kith leaves the exhausted druid somewhat vulnerable.

 

Some of those fantasy druid improvements are already included in Elric's work, some are just impossible to implement and some are probably not viable to balance. I do realize that as a whole I want the spiritshifted druid to be significantly more powerful than it is today. I want spiritshifted druid to be broken good and feel "right" - as wizard, monk or chanter for example. But I understand it probably won't happen .

EDIT: also I'd love to have spiritshift scripted interactions in dialogs - like having an option to intimidate a d-bag like Benweth by shifting into a 9-feet tall Manboar .

Edited April 9, 2022 by Not So Clever Hound

[Exanos]

There is a mod (Evolution if i recall right) which boost the spiritshift in interesting way (it end with broken form but still, some interesting idea in it) :

- give resistance/immunity to affliction depending on the form (like cat res/immune to dex, boar res/immune to con)

- add some per encounter abilities

- dual type damage

I will totally enjoy a very boosted martial spiritshift form with a huge drawback -> no cast while shifted (like shifter). 

edit : shifter will then need a nerf : can only cast 1spell/PL/encounter instead of 2. Or even better, can't cast at all and give him abilities for others martial tree instead.

Edited April 9, 2022 by Exanos

[Constentin Lévine]

2 hours ago, Exanos said:

Or even better, can't cast at all and give him abilities for others martial tree instead.

Oh this is what I name a seducing idea : the spiritshift suffer in my opinion to a great lack of taste, in comparison to the items that you are "turning off" while transformed. But the interest to use the forms if they was "classchanging" would be determinant.

Each animal forms can be related to a martial classe :

• Stag form as Barbarian
• Wolf form as Fighter
• Cat form as Monk
• Bear form as Paladin
• Boar form Rogue
• Blight form as Ranger

If, while transformed, the form could provide some benefices from the associated classe, like some abilities /encounter (I speak about some, not only one) , on top of the inherent form bonus but enhanced a little, I mean if the spiritshift form would have the imprit of the corresponding classe gameplay more than only the vague similarity that appears at the form choice, then building around spiritshift would make sense, like take the Shifter subclasse by the way. (the only reason to do that, Shifter as druid, seems (to me) RP reasons.)

 

[Not So Clever Hound]

29 minutes ago, Constentin Lévine said:

If, while transformed, the form could provide some benefices from the associated classe, like some abilities /encounter (I speak about some, not only one)

I like the idea. It would also be fair in a way, since every class can use iconic/signature Druid spells as scrolls - why not give some good stuff from others back to the druid... But in my wildest dreams spiritshifting should complement subclasses in a unique/reinforcing way, not just be a martial alternative. Shifter dedicates spiritshifting to flexibility and martial power, but other druid subclasses aren't about that. The spiritshift brings each subclass closer to its "true" self.

29 minutes ago, Constentin Lévine said:

(the only reason to do that, Shifter as druid, seems (to me) RP reasons.)

Well... and awesome default spells, and the buggy Boar DoT. Shifter/Assassin or Shifter/Helwalker = great.

Edited April 9, 2022 by Not So Clever Hound

[NotDumbEnough]

Minor suggestion: add Cloak of the Theocrat for sale somewhere, rather than it being an entirely random drop from searching tombs.

[Elric Galad]

8 hours ago, NotDumbEnough said:

Minor suggestion: add Cloak of the Theocrat for sale somewhere, rather than it being an entirely random drop from searching tombs.

Well, the item can still be obtained, and isn't very interesting, so for now, probably not.

9 hours ago, Constentin Lévine said:

Oh this is what I name a seducing idea : the spiritshift suffer in my opinion to a great lack of taste, in comparison to the items that you are "turning off" while transformed. But the interest to use the forms if they was "classchanging" would be determinant.

Each animal forms can be related to a martial classe :

• Stag form as Barbarian
• Wolf form as Fighter
• Cat form as Monk
• Bear form as Paladin
• Boar form Rogue
• Blight form as Ranger

If, while transformed, the form could provide some benefices from the associated classe, like some abilities /encounter (I speak about some, not only one) , on top of the inherent form bonus but enhanced a little, I mean if the spiritshift form would have the imprit of the corresponding classe gameplay more than only the vague similarity that appears at the form choice, then building around spiritshift would make sense,

I don't think it is that interesting in a game that already has multiclassing. If you want a Druid/Rogue, you can just play a Druid/Rogue.

That doesn't mean this couldn't be interesting or suitable for a mod.

I'm just saying that it will complexify the rules without major benefit. But well, there's literally hundreds of DnD prestige classes, so no harm to develop this.

Not really BPM purpose, at least  I don't aim to do things too different from vanilla, even if sometime I add a couple of properties.

 

In PoE1, Druid was a caster class that, for a short duration, was able to shift to another mode where you distributed some of the biggest melee potatoes in the game. Nothing specially subtle (a couple specialization based on form), but I think the feeling was still good. (Oh I remember the 1 per Rest Stag Carnage + stunning Avenging Storm. It was on overkilling group melter)

Somehow, Spiritshift was heavily nerfed in PoE2, to the point their attack is no better than many unique weapons (only Cat and Boar special abilities compensate). 

9 hours ago, Constentin Lévine said:

like take the Shifter subclasse by the way. (the only reason to do that, Shifter as druid, seems (to me) RP reasons.)

In vanilla, Shifter is mechanically superior (at least to Animist). Need to cast a spell ? Just switch back get healed, and switch again. You have 5x switch.

 

12 hours ago, Exanos said:

There is a mod (Evolution if i recall right) which boost the spiritshift in interesting way (it end with broken form but still, some interesting idea in it) :

[...]

- dual type damage

This.

This is a small change.

This is certainly not enough.

But this is an obviously good change. Boar vs Skeletons feels way too sad.

So Slash/Pierce for everyone. Except Fury. That would be a Fury drawback (drawback are useful, cause they allow buffing somewhere else to compensate).

 

I think boosting Spiritshift weapon damages is probably the way to go. I will keep the small +1/(+2) elemental KW from (Greater) Wildstrike as a way to distinguish non-shifter from shifter.

 

Now, what I consider satisfying (bar a couple minor adjustements) about Spiritshift in current BPM version :
- The cooldown for long fights.
- Balance between Shifter and Animist (so basically Shifter vs other subclass). Granted that Spiritshift has too become a bit more desirable to keep for Shifters to be satisfying.
- Wildstrike contribution to casting. Medium/Minor but helps using various spell (as I stated before, you should consider not using this to buff your "best spells", as some unique items can be better, but to boost secondary elements. The new Blight summons help toward that, I think.)
- Balance between the 5 main Forms
- Wildstrike Frenzy because Entropy (and party support, Stag's Horn, whatever)
- The way Lifgiver uses Spiritshift
 

What I should think more about :
- Focusing more Spiritshift about fighting better. 
- The exact role of Fury form (that I'm leaving aside a bit for now).

 

My proposal :
Set Shifted attacks to Slash / Pierce
Set Wildstrike to ~5% +3/PL lash damages
Set Greater Wildstrike to ~10% +5/PL damages

The idea is to boost Spritshift as an endgame "weapon set", but not early on where it is very competitive.

For a MC, you end up with :
- 12 AR +0% recovery.
- 13-16 Slash/Pierce damages, 9 PEN (sword + 3 PEN, but no modal)
- +45% elemental lash, a bit more with Potion of Ascension & the likes. (For SC, it will end at 60%+, which is very high... but you're a caster)
- 2 unique abilties per form, +1 engagement for Boar and Bear

This is basically better than (I think) any unique weapon when it comes to single target DPS. (and a huge DPS with Boar & Cat forms)

You will fight better (at least for single target DPS) with a decisively high PEN at the cost of 2 ability points.  (Wildstrikes are basically a "maintenance" cost for having a free self buff for druid as class. It costs 2 Passives to be able to benefit from Shifting more than situationally.)

You will defend... well... better when combining with weapon DPS. You can't have a shield so I'm not sure if it is that much of an improvement for defending and casting.

You will cast some spells with a bonus, maybe not your favorite, but this will at least be a free to switch caster stick set.

Edited April 9, 2022 by Elric Galad

[NotDumbEnough]

That sounds a bit excessively powerful for multiclassing. I do think that some form of PL scaling with Wildstrike would be good for single class Druids as they currently lack any sort of martial ability outside of Taste of the Hunt, and therefore hit nowhere near as hard as martial classes with Mule Kick/Crippling Strike/etc. But multiclass druids having access to PL scaling lashes would cause double dipping (i.e. PL scaling for both martial abilities and the lash, causing exponential damage growth) which might be too powerful later on. e.g. an Assassin/Druid would probably start one-shotting most enemies on PotD at higher levels even with upscaling.

I think it is probably better to address Spiritshift combat's lack of PL scaling by simply giving each form a martial ability (maybe the same, maybe not) from other classes, as mentioned above. The point is not to make Stag Form feel like a barbarian, but to keep up with martial class damage output, without breaking the scaling when multiclassing with a martial class. Even something really generic like Fighter's Penetrating Strike would be helpful.