What is the current state on dots/int ?

[Myrtillo]

I know that for a long time int was detrimental to dots.

Is that still the case ? Is there a consistent rule now ?

[Boeroer]

That was only the case for a certain few DoTs. Afaik nowadays those cases all got fixed.

Meaning that more INT now adds more ticks of the same height so that overall damage rises but dps stays the same.

Before (in some cases) the overall damage just got spread over longer time which left the overall dmg unchanged but lowered dps.

Maybe there's still one or two such weird DoTs - but I can't recall any atm.

 

[Eddizel]

What about disintegration?  With its fixed total damage amount, doesn't it actually benefit from low int?

[Boeroer]

Don't remember if it was fixed by an official  patch or if it's the Community Patch that fixed it (see my signature) - but for me Disintegrate works like any other DoT: more INT = more ticks = more overall dmg (unchanged dps).

[Eddizel]

I'm not using a community patch, just whatever the latest official one is.  It says disintegrate is a fixed 240 damage (I think that is the number) over however many seconds (determined by int).  So the tooltip in the game is just straight up wrong?  Having more int will give you more total damage?  I wanted to build a "dumb" cipher around this, kind of disappointed.

Edited January 21, 2020 by Eddizel
more info

[Ascaloth]

I've been meaning to ask; are there any particular synergies with active DoTs that isn't so apparent?

I know Predator's Sense from Ranger Companion is one, but I don't know if there's any others.

[Boeroer]

8 hours ago, Eddizel said:

I'm not using a community patch, just whatever the latest official one is.  It says disintegrate is a fixed 240 damage (I think that is the number) over however many seconds (determined by int).  So the tooltip in the game is just straight up wrong?  Having more int will give you more total damage?  I wanted to build a "dumb" cipher around this, kind of disappointed.

You are disappointed that the mechanics seem to work as they are supposed to?

You can still build a good dumb cipher. Several powers don't care abount INT, for example Mind Blades, Mind Lance, all Beams (fixed 10 sec duration) and some others. 

Edited January 21, 2020 by Boeroer

[Boeroer]

2 hours ago, Ascaloth said:

I've been meaning to ask; are there any particular synergies with active DoTs that isn't so apparent?

I know Predator's Sense from Ranger Companion is one, but I don't know if there's any others.

DoTs can be boosted additively with MIG (and some other obscure things) and multiplicatively with duration. That combo can be pretty strong. Duration can be prolonged via Power Level (base duration!), lowering enemies' RES (affects hostile effects on target), own INT, crits (+50%) and Enfeebled on the enemy (+50%). Maybe even Lingering Echoes (Cipher passive), didn't test it with certain DoTs. Maybe only works with proper afflictions.

So for example if a max MIG Forbidden Fist/Cipher at PL 7 with Turning Wheel (+10 INT) casts Psychovampiric Shield (-10 RES) and Secret Horrors (-5 RES) and then enfeebles via Forbidden Fist ability and will then crit with Disintegrate he will do tremendous damage per focus point spent because the Disintegrate (any DoT really) will last a really, really, really long time. Also good that FF-Monks can stun as well. Together with the enfeeblement you'll lower enemies fortitude by -20 from that alone. Add a Morning Star as usual for another -25 and a crit for Disintegrate is nothing that's out of reach.

That's the strongest synergy I know around DoTs. One of the strongest single target combos I know. Just not that Forbidden FIst doesn't generate focus in the unmodded game because Forbidden Fist lacks the "weapon" tag (and thus also doesn't work properly with Swift Flurry, Heartbeat Drumming and Enervating Blows). THis was fixed in the community patch (again - see my signature) which also contains unique icons for every passive ability. It is easy to install and is no powergaming mod - just balance adjustments and some bugfixes.

Oh, that and the fact that charmed enemies will not flip back if you hit them with a DoT-only (I mean if there's no additional physical hit roll involved like with Rogue's strikes or Necrotic Lance). Cipher's Disintegrate and lall other which are pure DoTs and can be targeted on allies will work: you can charm an enemy and still cast Disintegrate on them whithout them even noticing. Bye bye!

Here it's also no problem that DoTs take a while to kill because the guy's fighting for you anyways. You'll get a thrall which will dispose itself once its usefulness expired.

Edited January 21, 2020 by Boeroer

[Boeroer]

Other synergies: Debonaire/Cipher can charm + 100% crit-disintegrate. Also quite nice. No enfeebling but a nearly guarateed crit on disintegrate is great, too.

Helwalker/Cipher changes enfeeblement for higher MIG. It's usually more fiddly and less overall dmg with DoTs but the higher MIG is also useful for a bunch of other powers and weapon dmg (= more focus) so this might be preferrable to some.

Forbidden Fist/Assassin or Debonaire with Toxic Strike and also Deep Wounds and Ring the Bell (maybe even adding Bleeding Cuts) is also a great way to combine high dmg DoTs with prolonging mechanisms (enfeeble + high INT + crits). Since Toxic Strike can climb to enormous tick rates the longer it lasts this can be very good on bosses if you manage to lower their RES first (like with a Miasma + RES affclition for example).  

 

[Eddizel]

7 hours ago, Boeroer said:

You are disappointed that the mechanics seem to work as they are supposed to?

You can still build a good dumb cipher. Several powers don't care abount INT, for example Mind Blades, Mind Lance, all Beams (fixed 10 sec duration) and some others. 

I mean yeah, kind of.  I thought it was cool that int was good for AOE size and duration of buffs and debuffs, but that you could build a character focused on a single target DOT damage build with low int.

[Ascaloth]

@Boeroer Nice, a lot of options to consider in the future. 

I'm asking mostly because I'm theory crafting a build for Ydwin that turns her into something of a sadistic slasher villain type. It involves using the Seeker's Fang rapier to inflict the weapon-specific DoT and Perishing Strikes (for the Enfeeble and extension of DoTs) at the same time.

Then she'd pile more DoTs as she goes - Gouging Strike, Dripping Fangs from Spider Silk Robe, Disintegrate - and finish it with a Static Shell. Her target basically gets slowly cooked alive in her witch's cauldron, entirely helpless and beyond any hope of salvation. 

Been racking my head for a while trying to figure how to further optimise this concept, and I'm pretty sure I've hit my limit there. If anyone can come up with an idea to make it even better, it'll be you. 

[thelee]

Just to underline some points in this thread.

1. All dots scale with INT correctly. As Boeroer mentioned/alluded to, there were a few DoTs that didn't do this correctly, and those all got patched. (The technical details is that some DoTs use some weird formula--like Cleansing Flame or Disintegrate--that targets a total amount of damage over a base duration, as opposed to damage per tick, and they were buggily implemented when interacting with intellect. Don't ask me why some DoTs used this formula, but it's the reason why effects like Cleansing Flame and Disintegrate have very weird tooltips compared to e.g. Plague of Insects.)

2. All dots scale with might, but the aforementioned weird dots don't correctly scale with might combined with power level - they get less benefit than they should. This is an improvement from before, but it's still buggy: Math Is Hard i guess.

[thelee]

3 minutes ago, Ascaloth said:

@Boeroer Nice, a lot of options to consider in the future. 

I'm asking mostly because I'm theory crafting a build for Ydwin that turns her into something of a sadistic slasher villain type. It involves using the Seeker's Fang rapier to inflict the weapon-specific DoT and Perishing Strikes (for the Enfeeble and extension of DoTs) at the same time.

Then she'd pile more DoTs as she goes - Gouging Strike, Dripping Fangs from Spider Silk Robe, Disintegrate - and finish it with a Static Shell. Her target basically gets slowly cooked alive in her witch's cauldron, entirely helpless and beyond any hope of salvation. 

Been racking my head for a while trying to figure how to further optimise this concept, and I'm pretty sure I've hit my limit there. If anyone can come up with an idea to make it even better, it'll be you. 

If I were you, I'd go for Toxic Strike over Perishing Strikes and get someone else in your party who can add Enfeebled. Toxic Strike does a stupid amount of damage over a long duration.

[Boeroer]

Also note the Perishing Strike only enfeebles after the weakening effect wears off - which will take more an more time the more levels you gain. Some dev really hated that ability... 

[Ascaloth]

On 1/22/2020 at 5:24 AM, Boeroer said:

Also note the Perishing Strike only enfeebles after the weakening effect wears off - which will take more an more time the more levels you gain. Some dev really hated that ability... 

True, I know that. But the catch here is this; how many DoTs can I stack during the Weakened phase, to have their durations doubled when it ticks to the Enfeebled phase?

Of course, I'll have to test this some more to see if it works as well as I hope. And also whether it doubling the duration of all the DoTs can more than make up for the escalating damage of Toxic Strike.

[Boeroer]

Oh I forgot the most awesome thing with DoTs like Disintegrate: Animal COmpanions' Takedown Combo (+100% dmg for next hit) will NOT get removed if you cast a Disintegrate (or other pure DoT) on the target. That means the ticks of Disintegrate will have +100% damage, actually doubling the whole base damage. 

So Cipher/Ranger is also a nice thing for DoTs. Or havig a Forbidden Fist/Cipher/Ranger in the party (in whatever char/class combo). I guess with those three classes combined you can create the highest Disintegrate dmg possible. 

Also works with Lion's Sprint (Barb) by the way: the +15 ACC for the next attack will not get removed by a pure DoT. The DoT roll will profit but the bonus will stay active. 

Edited January 23, 2020 by Boeroer

[thelee]

6 hours ago, Ascaloth said:

True, I know that. But the catch here is this; how many DoTs can I stack during the Weakened phase, to have their durations doubled when it ticks to the Enfeebled phase?

enfeebled is only +50%, not doubling, fyi. still pretty good.

 

6 hours ago, Ascaloth said:

And also whether it doubling the duration of all the DoTs can more than make up for the escalating damage of Toxic Strike.

whynotboth.gif

[Ascaloth]

3 minutes ago, thelee said:

enfeebled is only +50%, not doubling, fyi. still pretty good.

 

whynotboth.gif

Oh right, my bad.

Also fair point on the second part. That said, I'm trying to craft a Ydwin build, with a focus on "independently good" instead of needing another party member to make it work.

Besides, I can always go for both by giving, say, Eder/Mirke/Vatnir the Toxic Strike.