Help with character build Cipher/thief

[Chilloutman]

Hi gus,

 

first off, I know there is already build section and I checked it but I feel like they are very outdated (one mention that DoT effects breaks stealth???)

 

can someone suggest some decent build for Mindstalkers? I feel like I should focus on damage from thief class and utility from Cipher but I am not really sure. I for sure want to be melee oriented build and I kinda liked street fighter subclass but I feel like I will not have enough survivability to get benefit from outflanked and bloodied. So I guess I should go for assassin? what is good combination of these? Any help/hints would be welcomed.

 

Thanks

[Boeroer]

A proven and fun concept is using a Trickster/Soulblade, go for max deflection (high RES and INT are benefical, Mirrored Image, Borrowed Instincts, Psychovampiric Shield and ACC debuffs on enemies) and use Whispers of the Endless Paths with the enchantment "Offensive Parry". It will generate focus for you when enemies miss. Add in Riposte (stacks with Offensive Parry) and the fact that Soul Annihilation applies raw damage over the whole AoE cone of WotEP and you have an rather tankish yet offensively very performant build. 

DoTs don't break stealth or invisibility anymore by the way.

Edited October 14, 2019 by Boeroer

[Chilloutman]

5 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

A proven and fun concept is using a Trickster/Soulblade, go for max deflection (high RES and INT are benefical, Mirrored Image, Borrowed Instincts, Pschovampiric Shield and ACC debuffs on enemies) and use Whispers of the Endless Paths with the enchantment "Offensiv Parry". It will generate focus for you when enemies miss. Add in Riposte (stacks with Offensive Parry) and the fact that Soul Annihilation applies raw damage over the whole AoE cone and you have an rather tankish yet offensively very performant build. 

DoTs don't break stealth or invisibility anymore by the way.

 you are the man, thanks that helps a lot

so a lot of int and res, got it, should I go perception dex or str on it? I suppose dual wield is good way to pump out focus right?

 

Edited October 14, 2019 by Chilloutman

[Boeroer]

Until you get WotEP you can dual wield if you wish, sure. In the early game St. Drogga's Skull ist a very good pick for a cipher (you'll have it right from the start). Just don't take two weapon style. Whispers of the Endless Paths is a great sword (you have the parts in your ship's drawer right at the start of the game but you need to assemble it in Neketaka - you can get it quite soon) - so I would recommend Two Handed Style. The focus will come in "on the fly" and passively because you will do an immediate retaliation attack (or even two with Riposte) that generates focus if an enemy misses you in melee. Since Mirrored Image and Borrowed Instincts stack you will be missed  lot. Against the usual bunch of enemies focus generation is so fast that you can use Soul Annihilation all the time. 

I would always use Draining Whip because Biting Whip is just awful (unless you use the Community Patch mod).  

[Chilloutman]

thanks again, if you would not mind i would be gratefull for some go for tips on talents as well

[Chilloutman]

On 10/14/2019 at 11:43 PM, Boeroer said:

Until you get WotEP you can dual wield if you wish, sure. In the early game St. Drogga's Skull ist a very good pick for a cipher (you'll have it right from the start). Just don't take two weapon style. Whispers of the Endless Paths is a great sword (you have the parts in your ship's drawer right at the start of the game but you need to assemble it in Neketaka - you can get it quite soon) - so I would recommend Two Handed Style. The focus will come in "on the fly" and passively because you will do an immediate retaliation attack (or even two with Riposte) that generates focus if an enemy misses you in melee. Since Mirrored Image and Borrowed Instincts stack you will be missed  lot. Against the usual bunch of enemies focus generation is so fast that you can use Soul Annihilation all the time. 

I would always use Draining Whip because Biting Whip is just awful (unless you use the Community Patch mod).  

Man do I missed something about that greatsword? It seems like it does half damage of same quality regular greatsword...

[Blunderboss]

Whispers of the endless paths has reduced damage but it attacks in a cone and has Offensive Parry, with right build it does much more damage than other 2handed weapons. 

Another great mindstalker build is Debonaire/Beguiler using ranged weapons. 

You get Whispers of Treason and Ringleader for charming enemies, you can Whispers of Treason + Crit with Essence Interrupter bow and enemies will turn into your minions after they die. You can also mass charm enemies with Ringleader and then hit them with Kitchen Stove+Thunderous Raport for some serious annihilation. You will be able to interrupt in range with your rogue skills on demand which is very underrated imo, you will be able to build tons of focus either by using Deception spells which are some of the best debuffs in the game or just auto attacking afflicted targets with Sneak attack and deathblows. Build is very versatile and can switch between dealing single target damage , debuffing and crowd controlling on demand 

[Boeroer]

Beguiler/Debonaire is cool. But instead of using a weapon to profit from the crit conversion it's better (in my opinion) to use Disintegrate. Getting focus usually is no big deal for a Beguiler (just cast Phantom Foes or Secret Horrors before using Whisper of Treason or Ring Leader) and then Disintegrate. It doesn't flip the alliance back if you cast it on charmed enemies (impossible with PoE, but no problem in Deadfire) where it then gains +50% duration from the crit. Which is a lot better in terms of dmg gain than +25% crit dmg for a weapon. Of course you can do both. 

 

Edited November 5, 2019 by Boeroer

[Blunderboss]

Disintegrate Tactic is really good against tough enemies you can charm but cant explode with Thunderous Raport, depending on encounter you probably want to switch between , Single Target charm +disintegrate+ auto them with essence interrupter before they die, aoe charm + thunderous raport , just simply nuking enemy wizards with rogue skills you will crit them anyway and turn into minions(this is something you end up doing every time when enemy has a wizard which opens encounter with arcane dampener)Later in the game i mostly used Smoke Veil > Ring Leader repeat couple of times and smack them all with Thunderous Raport 

Edited November 5, 2019 by Blunderboss

[FleetFeet]

2 hours ago, Chilloutman said:

Man do I missed something about that greatsword? It seems like it does half damage of same quality regular greatsword...

Btw, if you are really disappointed and would consider playing with mods, there is one by paryllax on nexusmods that buffs the base damage WotEP to that of a regular greatsword (while keeping the aoe damage the same). This is close to what it was before one of the early patches toned it down.  You might need to reload from before you picked it up if using but not sure.

 

https://www.nexusmods.com/pillarsofeternity2/mods/75

[Boeroer]

@Blunderboss: Yes, Thunderous Report is like an AoE dmg spell - so that's a nice use of the crit conversion as well. I somehow skipped that line of your post and only read Essence Interrupter. Sorry.

I also liked using two Necklaces of Fireballs (that leads to 8 Fireballs per encounter). If you have Precognition (amulet) and Improved Criticals that also melts faces of charmed mobs pretty nicely. It's cheesy though because the replenishment of charged uses via stashing is def. not intended.  

[Chilloutman]

I am already down with trickster/soulblade soo no change there, ok I will give that sword a chance. One more question about psychovamp shield, you mentioned it's good spell but it seems it have very short duration, I guess I am suppose to spam it or is there some other trick to make it stick longer?

[Blunderboss]

27 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

@Blunderboss: Yes, Thunderous Report is like an AoE dmg spell - so that's a nice use of the crit conversion

What i like the most about Thunderous Raport is that is scales with everything you can think of because its considered weapon attack. It gets 60% damage from legendary upgrade alone and then scales with Might , PL , Bonus ranged damage like Harley buff and so on i think it even gets affected by sneak attack and deathblows

Obvious downside that its one per encounter and exclusive to another great enchantment on kitchen stove so you gotta make it count

@Chilloutman cipher debuffs that debuff enemy and buff yourself only last untill debuffed enemy is killed anyway

Edited November 5, 2019 by Blunderboss

[Boeroer]

Not really. For example Psychovampiric Shield lasts even if you kill the enemy you cast it upon. That was the topic of a recent thread here. I also thought differently but when I tested it was proven wrong. Maybe it changed at some point, no idea.

Psychovampiric Shield lasts longer with high INT (obviously) and I think also with Lingering Echoes (not 100% sure though) but most notably with Power Level (+5% multipicative with INT). So the more PLs you gain the longer it will last.

 

Edited November 5, 2019 by Boeroer

[Boeroer]

6 hours ago, Chilloutman said:

Man do I missed something about that greatsword? It seems like it does half damage of same quality regular greatsword...

It's all about Offensive Parry. You will get focus for free every time any enemy misses you. Stacks with Riposte, too (so there's a change to retaliate twice on an enemy miss). Then Soul Annihilation dumps its raw dmg multiple times (with varying height) on all the enemies in the AoE (cone). I guess that's what you missed.

It's a very good setup, of course best against mobs - not bosses. Switch to another weapon against single tough foes.

Edited November 5, 2019 by Boeroer

[Blunderboss]

12 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

Not really. For example Psychovampiric Shield lasts even if you kill the enemy you cast it upon. That was the topic of a recent thread here. I also thought differently but when I tested it was proven wrong. Maybe it changed at some point, no idea.

Psychovampiric Shield lasts longer with high INT (obviously) and I think also with Lingering Echoes (not 100% sure though) but most notably with Power Level (+5% multipicative with INT). So the more PLs you gain the longer it will last.

 

Hmmm so its only the Psychovampiric Shield that lasts after initial target died or there are other cipher spells like that ? I remember being pissed that Borrowed Instinct ended right after i kill the target which makes that ability much worse than it looks at first glance

Edited November 5, 2019 by Blunderboss

[Boeroer]

IIRC it's with all those powers that you cast onto enemies and whch have a buffing effect on you (Wild Leech, Body Attunement and so on). But I'm not 100% sure anymore.

[Chilloutman]

Ok dumb question, power levels? I know empower is providing them but how else to get them, only through equipment?

[Boeroer]

Through level-ups, some abilities and some items. Mostly levels. The tiers you see on the ability page (where you choose your abilities): each ability tier represents a Power Level. 

Multiclass characters can reach 7 PLs via level-up and Single Class chars can reach 9 (10 if they take the Prestige ability).

Empower grants you additional Power Levels for the empowered ability, true.

[FleetFeet]

2 hours ago, Boeroer said:

It's all about Offensive Parry. You will get focus for free every time any enemy misses you. Stacks with Riposte, too (so there's a change to retaliate twice on an enemy miss). Then Soul Annihilation dumps its raw dmg multiple times (with varying height) on all the enemies in the AoE (cone). I guess that's what you missed.

It's a very good setup, of course best against mobs - not bosses. Switch to another weapon against single tough foes.

Is it also worthwhile to stack a little more engagement so that you can proc disengagement attacks using Ryngrim's Repulsive Visage  with this set-up? 

[Boeroer]

Yes - although Cipher/Rogue doesn't really have that many engagement+ abilities. Most notable is Persistent Distraction.

You would focus more on that with an Unbroken/Trickster I think.

[FleetFeet]

1 hour ago, Boeroer said:

Yes - although Cipher/Rogue doesn't really have that many engagement+ abilities. Most notable is Persistent Distraction.

You would focus more on that with an Unbroken/Trickster I think.

Yeah, that's the problem. With chanter in party chanting silver knights (+10 deflection to trigger more riposte and +1 engagement) and maybe Reckless Brigandine (+1). That's 3 engagement slots.  The disengagement attack with WotEP  is AOE right? And as one terrified guy breaks engagement and get's wacked the newly free engagement slot get's filled up right away with another (potentially) terrified guy?

I might give this a try just to see how it works out at least. I'm currently on a turn based play-thru and had hired this build to my crew as soon as I got WotEP.  Only to realize that you get missed a lot less often in TB with 1-49 rolls being graze.So offensive parry not triggering as much as I had hoped. At least I am using the community patch which changed Riposte to 25% on graze/miss. Anyway, would still like to find a way to make this work b/c it is a fun build. 

Edited November 5, 2019 by FleetFeet

[gotjazz]

Just a side question here. I'm starting out my first run with a ranged assassin/ascendant. I'm thinking to use mostly bows and arquebuses (maybe at some point dual blunderbusses after some respecing) with assassinate to quickly gain focus and then start spamming the fun cipher things when ascended. 

So I thought I'd use an elf, pretty much max out perception, intellect and dexterity, leave a little might so I don't completely loose out on damage but it'll probably be around 12 or so and go quite low (like really) on resolve and constitution. 

I know melee is nice for assassin for stacking assassinate with backstab, but I'm too squishy for that and assassinate alone is nice too and after that I at least have good hit chances and action speed if I need to generate more focus. 

Does that sound viable? 

Oh and cc is nice but I want to also use some cipher stuff that causes damage since I vaguely remember that being fun in poe1 (though I hardly remember playing it at all - lots of personal stuff since then). 

I get the impression in the forum that the cipher as damage dealer has been somewhat nerfed since poe1? 

[Blunderboss]

Backstabing with arquebus is game winning strategy and everything else is just a flavor

3 Con 3 Res is more than enough for melee assassin, however melee assassins should always be single class

Assassin Ascendant is not the most synergetic combo but it will be good enough troughout the game, you can assassinate with Kitchen Stove+thunderous raport enchantment and you will instantly ascend and enemies will be half dead already, if you need to ascend more than once you can backstab with some op arquebus and you will ascend again pretty fast

Take a priest with you so you can prolong the ascended state with Salvation of Time , also it might be worth getting No Time for the Lost watcher skill for the same purpose of prolonging your ascended state

Edited November 7, 2019 by Blunderboss

[Boeroer]

Yes. Assassin can still stack Backstab + Assassinate with an arquebus. You just have to come close (2 meters or nearer). No problem with Smoke Veil or Shadowing Beyond: since arquebuses have no recovery you can turn invisible right after the initial shot from stealth.