Suggestion for Chanter Nuker/DPS

[helmino]

Heya guys! I want to create a character that can both dish out damage from melee/spell with some sinergy between these two aspect!

I really Like offensive damage invocation of the chanter, like the lightning one, but how they scale to late game on the Veteran difficulty? How Skald can be build for this? People Always take CC to boost his crit fishing (that create sinergy) and skip the damaging spell that i like.

I can even build a single class chanter with damaging invocation but i don't if he can be a viable dps, and i don't know whats good and not good to take.

Maybe I have to change the caster class, but i really like chanter, any suggestion? Thank you in advance and sorry for my bad english

Edited May 15, 2019 by helmino

[jazzthing]

I finished a Solo PotD Run (without Megabosses, at least now) with a Troubadour/Bloodmage. It was pretty smooth run because they compliment each other really well. 

Troubadour is still the best Subclass, if you want to play with a full team a skald would to it as well. 

On stats drop Resolve and some Con and max Per. Distribute the rest between Might and Dex. Take the summon invocations if you play solo or duo or take the damage/support invocations for a group. Be aware that you need to be in melee range for the lightning invocation. 

Use the wizard side for selfbuffs, debuffs and all the good damagespells. Don't forget spellshaping for the Pl bonus. The lightning invocation hits like truck with it. 

[helmino]

54 minutes ago, jazzthing said:

I finished a Solo PotD Run (without Megabosses, at least now) with a Troubadour/Bloodmage. It was pretty smooth run because they compliment each other really well. 

Troubadour is still the best Subclass, if you want to play with a full team a skald would to it as well. 

On stats drop Resolve and some Con and max Per. Distribute the rest between Might and Dex. Take the summon invocations if you play solo or duo or take the damage/support invocations for a group. Be aware that you need to be in melee range for the lightning invocation. 

Use the wizard side for selfbuffs, debuffs and all the good damagespells. Don't forget spellshaping for the Pl bonus. The lightning invocation hits like truck with it. 

Thank for the suggestion! So chanter's nukes scale well in late?

[jazzthing]

They do. That doesn't matter much on Veteran though as resistances and mob HP are relatively low compared to upscaled PotD. If you want more power levels on your spells, use the Chromoprismatic Quarterstaff or Sun&Moon. 

[helmino]

What about dual wielding scimitar skald fighter devoted? This one sinergize with the aoe stance and the full attack of charge. Or maybe devoted to single hand rapier for more crit fishing? The inspiration will boost crit fishing of offensive spell too?

Edited May 15, 2019 by helmino

[Enoch]

A multiclass Skald who takes 1 Tier VII non-offensive invocation to maximize the Phrase cap can spam the heck out of Thrice Was She Wronged.  It's pretty neat.  Particularly if you add in an Empower and the Singing Scimitar with the "Encore" enchantment.  You'll just need to do some work at the outset to get the enemies clustered within the smallish AoE. 

So Singt Biting Winds is also a nice Chanter nuke.  Use it while chanting Long Night's Drink to debuff FORT. 

[jazzthing]

A Melee-focused Skald works great as Enoch pointed out. You may want to use "... And the Killer frooze stiff" to support your party and get even more phrases and use "Thrice.." to clean up the rest. 

[helmino]

1 hour ago, Enoch said:

A multiclass Skald who takes 1 Tier VII non-offensive invocation to maximize the Phrase cap can spam the heck out of Thrice Was She Wronged.  It's pretty neat.  Particularly if you add in an Empower and the Singing Scimitar with the "Encore" enchantment.  You'll just need to do some work at the outset to get the enemies clustered within the smallish AoE. 

So Singt Biting Winds is also a nice Chanter nuke.  Use it while chanting Long Night's Drink to debuff FORT. 

Thanks to both of you guys! So i need to take one invocation or level 7, else my cap will not increase?

Thrice and Biting Winds are the only one worth use for damage? And is better to upgrade thrice or leave it base?

Still undecided if going one hand style or dual wield

[Myrtillo]

As others have stated, in veteran pretty much anything (that isn't completely stupid) can work decently well.

From the playstyle you describe, I would suggest a single class bellower and gear him/her for melee.
Being melee, the smaller chant radius is less punishing. Your invocations will be doing heavy damage (due to the huge increase in power level from bellower), and you have long lasting powerful self buff.

Cast Far From Defeated, just do (Energized) auto-attacks for 12 seconds to have 5 phrases, cast (empowered) Eld Nary. This will wipe 2/3 of encounters in Veteran. Then you can use your (still Energized) autoattacks on whatever ennemy is still standing while you replenish phrases for a final heavy nuke (can be thrice/boil their felsh for variety etc.)

In short, you constantly alternate between autoattacks in Energized state (so +5 might+2pen, interrupts on crit), and extremely strong invocations (+PL from bellower and energized). 

 

Edited May 15, 2019 by Myrtillo

[Enoch]

14 minutes ago, helmino said:

Thanks to both of you guys! So i need to take one invocation or level 7, else my cap will not increase?

Thrice and Biting Winds are the only one worth use for damage? And is better to upgrade thrice or leave it base?

Still undecided if going one hand style or dual wield

Definitely upgrade Thrice-- the bounce is a worthwhile boost to damage, and it makes the AoE a little more forgiving, as the bounces can tag enemies outside the original cone.  Thunder Rolled is useful more for the Stun than the damage, but having a Stun that targets REF can be great against some opponents.  (It's a way to use a weak REF defense to debuff FORT.)  Seven Nights is situationally OK, although it can be a tactical challenge to get the most out of it-- it's best when you're surrounded.  Haven't experimented with Boil Their Flesh much. 

The Phrase cap (and thus the number of "free" phrases you start combat with) is equal to whatever your most expensive invocation costs.  Invocation cost = [(Ability Level)/2] +2, rounded up, after which subclass-based adjustments are made (e.g., a Skald's -1 to Offensive and +1 to Non-Offensive).  Ability level is the base-ability's level-- upgrading doesn't increase the cost.  So, if you want to be spamming low-level invocations (like a Skald's 2-cost Thrice, Hel Hyraf, Thunder, and Killers) you still need to invest in an invocation at the top tier. 

As for single v. dual weapons, it depends somewhat on what other sources you may have for ACC and hit-to-crit.  With a multiclass and/or some party buffs, I think dual weapons is a stronger path-- faster attacks means more rolls that can crit, even if your chance of critting on any one is lower.  Plus, the damage you produce will be stronger even if the crits aren't coming. 

I haven't tried Myrtillo's Bellower idea, but it sounds like it would be effective to me.  I wasn't a fan of the subclass when they introduced it, but if I were to run one, it would probably be along those lines.  I suspect that the levels before you get Eld Nary would be a bit of a chore, though. 

[Myrtillo]

20 minutes ago, Enoch said:

  I suspect that the levels before you get Eld Nary would be a bit of a chore, though. 

Not a chore per say, you can just spam Thrice... whenever you get the phrases for it. It is not as encounter-wiping as Eld Nary, but it is definitely on par with the damage output of the rest of the party at that level. Especially if you account that chanter has the only non-conditionally regenerating ressource, which is a huge deal early game.

And you still have the chants that are, due to their mostly non-scaling nature, relatively better early game.

[Jayd]

Multiclassing with Helwalker Monk is a quick hack for creating bonkers casters because the bonus might and intellect have incredible impact on spell power. I recently started a Bellower/Helwalker Cantor with a mind to maximize invocation power. As soon as he got the upgrade to Thrice he got a power spike beyond any other character I've had at that level. Thrice just one-shots small groups of mobs easily. Using Sasha's Singing Scimitar you can empower one and then follow up with another - suddenly about half your enemies have been deleted (this is on POTD-upscaled).

The secret sauce is that power level, being a boost to an ability's base power, stacks beautifully with extremely high might and intellect. Power level also increases the number of bounces on spells (Thrice bounces on upgrade). This means that though you won't throw out invocations as quickly as a Scald, they will be significantly more powerful. And the smart metagamer will realize that sustained damage is not as important as burst damage provided that the burst damage passes a threshold in which it kills enemies in fewer casts. Something some people fail to grasp (based on an experience I've had in this forum) is that the object of the game is not to have maximum average damage over an extended period of time, but to kill enemies. Obviously these are closely related, but they are not identical. It might be the case that a Scald can cast so many more spells within, say, 10 mins than a Bellower, that the Scald ends up putting out more damage despite having weaker spells. However, if the Scald needs to cast Thrice twice to kill a mob when the Bellower needs to cast it only once, or the Scald's Eld Nary needs to hit a mob twice or three times to kill where the Bellower's only has to hit once or twice, the Bellower is going to kill enemies more effectively in practice.

Now I don't actually know how these balance in the actual game. It was just the reasoning I used to go with the Bellower instead of Scald (justifying my general preference for explosiveness) so I thought it might help you. Main issue I'm having with my Cantor is that there are so many abilities I think would be cool to have and I don't have space for them

[Elric Galad]

Bellower lacks a bit of adaptability for my own taste due to almost wasting additional phrases. You have to time your invocation with the right number of phrases.
Skald doesn't have penalty to chant which makes him better at fullfilling a part of traditionnal Chanter duties.
However, I'm realizing I have no idea how Thrice she was wronged actually work and how many bounces are caused by its upgrade and PL.

[Jayd]

With max INT I was pleasantly surprised at how forgiving the Bellower chant radius still was. On a Cantor I don't think it would be very noticeable because of Duality (mine hasn't even gotten to that point yet). The annoyance of "wasting" phrases is there, though.

[Myrtillo]

25 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

Bellower lacks a bit of adaptability for my own taste due to almost wasting additional phrases. You have to time your invocation with the right number of phrases.
Skald doesn't have penalty to chant which makes him better at fullfilling a part of traditionnal Chanter duties.
However, I'm realizing I have no idea how Thrice she was wronged actually work and how many bounces are caused by its upgrade and PL.

I wouldn't call a +PL a waste of a phrase, especially on the ones that have bounces. In the case of Thrice it is very ok to hoard phrases a bit and wait for a more favorable timing with 2 or 3 more phrases than the minimum required for that +6PL.
It is true however that you loose some flexibility. That's the premise of Bellower, you will cast less but much more powerful invocations, and can auto-attack and chant in the downtime.

I would argue that Skald has an indirect side effect chant penalty though. Since you end up casting more of your cheap offensive invocations (and even more due to crit generated phrases), you spend (much) more time in invocation recovery, and therefore not chanting.

Bellower diminushed radius is really not that punishing, especially when you go melee.
 

Edited May 15, 2019 by Myrtillo

[Elric Galad]

39 minutes ago, Myrtillo said:

Bellower diminushed radius is really not that punishing, especially when you go melee.
 

Another option could be Sure Handed Ila. It's a very powerful chant, much more efficient for weapon DPS than Aefyllath, but also more conditional and can't usually be applied to all party members.
If your chanter goes firearms/crossbow and you have another shooter close to him, it's enough to justify Sure Handed and the chant range won't be detrimental at all.
I think Bellower/Rogue or something like this could be a good combo.

[helmino]

3 hours ago, Myrtillo said:

Not a chore per say, you can just spam Thrice... whenever you get the phrases for it. It is not as encounter-wiping as Eld Nary, but it is definitely on par with the damage output of the rest of the party at that level. Especially if you account that chanter has the only non-conditionally regenerating ressource, which is a huge deal early game.

And you still have the chants that are, due to their mostly non-scaling nature, relatively better early game.

This sounds really fun, which stats spread you suggest? Dual Weapon style?

Also there are some dialogue ability to consider that are better than other? (i probably taking mechanics and stealth or alchemy on him if you suggest no one).

Last question, best chant to take for endgame?

Thank you for your help!

Edited May 15, 2019 by helmino

[Myrtillo]

19 minutes ago, helmino said:

This sounds really fun, which stats spread you suggest? Dual Weapon?

Also there are some dialogue ability to consider that are better than other? (i probably taking mechanics and stealth or alchemy on him if you suggest no one).

Last question, best chant to take for endgame?

Thank you for your help!

I am not really a build specialist, as I have a tendancy to pick the stats I like for RP purposes and make the build work with it, but I'd say Per++ Int++ Might+ Dex+ Con= Res-

Active abilities pick whatever you feel like, it will not affect the build (except alchemy that gives you better consumables).

Dual wielding will give you more damage overall, but it will not make or break the build. Try both during the first couple of levels and you can decide what you like best. And you can always respec

I invite you to read the great answers I got from forum regulars when I was myself trying to figure out what to do with my bellower  Have fun!
https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/109064-a-few-chanter-bellower-related-questions/

 

[helmino]

I lile to optimize with RP stats too thank you all for the help!

[Marigoldran]

6 hours ago, Jayd said:

Multiclassing with Helwalker Monk is a quick hack for creating bonkers casters because the bonus might and intellect have incredible impact on spell power. I recently started a Bellower/Helwalker Cantor with a mind to maximize invocation power. As soon as he got the upgrade to Thrice he got a power spike beyond any other character I've had at that level. Thrice just one-shots small groups of mobs easily. Using Sasha's Singing Scimitar you can empower one and then follow up with another - suddenly about half your enemies have been deleted (this is on POTD-upscaled).

The secret sauce is that power level, being a boost to an ability's base power, stacks beautifully with extremely high might and intellect. Power level also increases the number of bounces on spells (Thrice bounces on upgrade). This means that though you won't throw out invocations as quickly as a Scald, they will be significantly more powerful. And the smart metagamer will realize that sustained damage is not as important as burst damage provided that the burst damage passes a threshold in which it kills enemies in fewer casts. Something some people fail to grasp (based on an experience I've had in this forum) is that the object of the game is not to have maximum average damage over an extended period of time, but to kill enemies. Obviously these are closely related, but they are not identical. It might be the case that a Scald can cast so many more spells within, say, 10 mins than a Bellower, that the Scald ends up putting out more damage despite having weaker spells. However, if the Scald needs to cast Thrice twice to kill a mob when the Bellower needs to cast it only once, or the Scald's Eld Nary needs to hit a mob twice or three times to kill where the Bellower's only has to hit once or twice, the Bellower is going to kill enemies more effectively in practice.

Now I don't actually know how these balance in the actual game. It was just the reasoning I used to go with the Bellower instead of Scald (justifying my general preference for explosiveness) so I thought it might help you. Main issue I'm having with my Cantor is that there are so many abilities I think would be cool to have and I don't have space for them

What about bosses where Thrice isn't going to kill it easily?

[Jayd]

3 hours ago, Marigoldran said:

What about bosses where Thrice isn't going to kill it easily?

The only decent boss spell Chanters have is Seven Nights. Other than that the floating weapons are your best bet. 

edit: If you mean when it comes to Skald vs Bellower, then it depends on whether you want to take advantage of the weapon summon or not. If you do, Bellower is better because their weapons last a very significant 30% (base) longer and are cheaper to summon (having to summon less often also allows you to take advantage of other invocations more often during a fight where otherwise you would have needed to spend phrases refreshing your summon - an advantage Bellower has that is rarely mentioned, and a further advantage for Cantor because of the extra intellect). If you're only using Seven Nights, Skald might be better.

Edited May 16, 2019 by Jayd