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anishar

Are Affliction Resistances too strong / too easy to obtain?

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Posted (edited)

Deadfire affliction resistances downgrade afflictions by a tier, which basically means :

 

Mig resistance : Immune to stuns

Con resistance : Immune to 100% heal reduction

Dex resistance : Immune to paralyze

Per resistance : Immune to blind

Int resistance : Immune to dominate

Res resistance : Immune to terrified

 

Note that from these resistances, the only one that doesn't totally gives you immunity to the "hard CC" (lock a character) related to the attribute is Int, as it downgrades Dominated to Charmed which is "almost" the same thing.

 

Considering the Racials, Items, and Talents providing resistances, i've found extremely easy to have your entire party almost "CC Proof" just from resistances, therefore almost completely trivializing an entire aspect of the game (having to deal with afflictions with either inspirations or dispels).

 

The easiest resistance to get is probably Dex, due to the amount of items providing it (Neck, Gloves, Belt, Boots, Enchants...), having your entire party immune to Paralyze is extremely easy.

Mig is probably second on the list.

If most of your party members are Orlans (Res resist), the only "hard CC" you have to deal with is Charmed basically (downgrade from Dominated). Heal reduction and Blind (from Con and Per) are annoying, but do not prevent you from playing a character, therefore i do not consider those to be "Hard CC".

 

So i'm wondering... Are resistances too strong the way they are? Was the "added defense" from PoE1 better? (As you could still be vulnerable to it against high rolls).

 

Or is the Affliction "tier" flawed?

I feel like Tier 1 afflicitons are quite weak and can easily be ignored completely.

Tier 2 are decent, however i do believe Charmed is too similar to Dominated (wouldve prefered the Confused from PoE1 instead to better differenciate).

Tier 3 are extremely strong, BUT, your party can easily be built around being entirely immuned to at least Stun, Paralyze, Terrified, meaning the only hard CC you are exposed to is Dominated/Charmed, and you can prevent it with food buffs on the rare fights where this is important.

 

So "Overall", i feel like your party is very easily made "hard CC proof" for the most part.

Is it good? Is it bad?

 

The major downside being that it removes an interesting part of gameplay entirely, you do not have to deal with afflictions on your party for the most part.

On the other hand, if dealing with afflictions on your party was "mandatory", it would force players to run a Priest or a Paladin on every party, therefore reducing party composition options.

 

My opinion on the matter is that the afflictions as they are, are mostly fine (outside of Charmed). However i do believe Resistances are a bit too good compared to how easy to obtain they are. If there was fewer items providing these, i think it would be ok as it is. With plenty of resistance items available, i think extra defense over flat downgrade would be more adequate.

Edited by anishar

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Posted (edited)

Note that DEX afflictions are weird, in that "Paralyze (Petrify)" is a unique 4th-tier affliction.  So DEX resistance does not immunize one from Paralyze, because Petrifying effects will still Paralyze.  That said, DEX resistance is still quite valuable, because Paralyze is probably the most common hard-CC effect that enemies in this game use.  (Although many of those-- xaurips, spiders-- can be addressed by drinking an antidote.)

 

I'm OK with resistance as it is.  This is in part because you're neglecting the degree to which non-hard-CC debuffs can suck for your party--even with Resistance, you still have to deal with them.  The -5 to the associated attribute flows into secondary stats like Defenses, hit points, and Accuracy, and several of the non-top-tier afflictions have other effects that can be a real pain to handle-- MIG afflictions cripple tanks; any RES affliction is terrible for characters who rely on PL scaling abilities; Frightened defangs casters; Confused is a challenge for anyone with a persistent aura effect; etc.  Maybe there are a few too many items granting some of them, but every equipment decision involves an opportunity cost (i.e., something else you could be wearing instead, or some other enchantment you could have selected for the item), and it is probably not optimal to be kitting out a party with Resistances as your very first concern, outside of some very specific encounters. 

Edited by Enoch

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Posted (edited)

Mig resistance : Immune to stuns
Con resistance : Immune to 100% heal reduction
Dex resistance : Immune to paralyze
Per resistance : Immune to blind
Int resistance : Immune to dominate
Res resistance : Immune to terrified
 
Not only this, but it also means that you are immune to the corresponding tier-1 affliction if it gets applied to you directly. For example you are not only immune to Stunned (downgraded to Dazed) but also to all abilites that try to apply Staggered to you do nothing. That means you avoid any debuff.
 
However - compared to PoE all afflictions are just a shadow of what they used to be (few exceptions like Terrified and Charmed/Dominated). So a Resistance to something that is not as powerful is not as OP than let's say an immunity to something more powerful - like  the Priest's prayers of PoE. One reason why the priest is considered the strongest class in PoE - but def. not in Deadfire (has no immunity spells anymore but just "counters" with inspirations or Suppress Affliction).
 
Also - there are Inspirations. And when it comes to countering an affliction they are no tiers. A tier-1 inspiration will simply cancel out a tier-3 affcltion of the same attribute. That also lowers the value of resistances a bit.
 
All in all I think they are in a good plaxe balance-wise. People complained that PoE afflictions had too much impact on the gameplay because they a) were too powerful and b) also got fully applied on grazes (only duration was shorter). So Obsidian made sure that they are still useful but don't have that much impact anymore (by lowerinf the effects but also by giving the player plenty of countermeasures like Resistances, raised defenses and Inspirations - and later even Resolve).
Edited by Boeroer
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Deadfire Community Patch: Nexus Mods

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Note that DEX afflictions are weird, in that "Paralyze (Petrify)" is a unique 4th-tier affliction.  So DEX resistance does not immunize one from Paralyze, because Petrifying effects will still Paralyze.  That said, DEX resistance is still quite valuable, because Paralyze is probably the most common hard-CC effect that enemies in this game use.  (Although many of those-- xaurips, spiders-- can be addressed by drinking an antidote.)

 

Have you ever needed an antidote, though? It's the potion that I tend to collect huge amounts of but that I have never once drunk either in PoE1 or Deadfire. The reason for this is that although some afflictions are troublesome, none of them last for very long, and they are all therefore mere nuisances instead of severe problems, even in the heat of battle.

 

This, for me, is one of the main reasons why battle in PoE or Deadfire is never actually scary -- to the extent that it can be in RPGs -- because you know that all effects are temporary.

 

(The system itself, I think, is fairly well balanced, it has to be said.)

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Posted (edited)

 

Note that DEX afflictions are weird, in that "Paralyze (Petrify)" is a unique 4th-tier affliction.  So DEX resistance does not immunize one from Paralyze, because Petrifying effects will still Paralyze.  That said, DEX resistance is still quite valuable, because Paralyze is probably the most common hard-CC effect that enemies in this game use.  (Although many of those-- xaurips, spiders-- can be addressed by drinking an antidote.)

 

Have you ever needed an antidote, though? It's the potion that I tend to collect huge amounts of but that I have never once drunk either in PoE1 or Deadfire. The reason for this is that although some afflictions are troublesome, none of them last for very long, and they are all therefore mere nuisances instead of severe problems, even in the heat of battle.

 

This, for me, is one of the main reasons why battle in PoE or Deadfire is never actually scary -- to the extent that it can be in RPGs -- because you know that all effects are temporary.

 

(The system itself, I think, is fairly well balanced, it has to be said.)

 

 

on potd early-mid game poison is scary to me because of hte frequency with which that poison is a paralyze effect, which is pretty much lethal for a front-liner. i also use it in oathbinder's sanctum because i tend to do it early and i have few other options against dank spores charm at that level.

 

though beyond that, the only other time i use antidote is against belranga.

 

part of the lack of use is murk - like, i'm still not sure what dominating spores is, because sporelings give that to me a lot.... and it sounds scary, but i'm not actually sure what it does and why i should care. the fact that i don't know what it does and i seem to end fights just fine though suggests to me i don't really need to use antidote.

 

objectively we should all be using antidotes more, because against things like plague of insects it's effectively a ton of healing. but eh, like you say the effects are temporary and they're rarely ever that scary. meanwhile, a poison in BG could literally kill you in a couple rounds.

Edited by thelee

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Note that DEX afflictions are weird, in that "Paralyze (Petrify)" is a unique 4th-tier affliction.  So DEX resistance does not immunize one from Paralyze, because Petrifying effects will still Paralyze.  That said, DEX resistance is still quite valuable, because Paralyze is probably the most common hard-CC effect that enemies in this game use.  (Although many of those-- xaurips, spiders-- can be addressed by drinking an antidote.)

 

Have you ever needed an antidote, though? It's the potion that I tend to collect huge amounts of but that I have never once drunk either in PoE1 or Deadfire. The reason for this is that although some afflictions are troublesome, none of them last for very long, and they are all therefore mere nuisances instead of severe problems, even in the heat of battle.

 

This, for me, is one of the main reasons why battle in PoE or Deadfire is never actually scary -- to the extent that it can be in RPGs -- because you know that all effects are temporary.

 

(The system itself, I think, is fairly well balanced, it has to be said.)

 

You don't need them, but it can be helpful if I'm going into a battle with some poison-happy enemies at a level where that might be a challenge.  If I remember to, I'll have my front-liners get them in a quickslot and drink one in the early going.  It's not like they're a big resource cost, and if it can avoid a paralyze, it can make the fight significantly more manageable. 

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So a Resistance to something that is not as powerful is not as OP than let's say an immunity to something more powerful - like  the Priest's prayers of PoE. One reason why the priest is considered the strongest class in PoE - but def. not in Deadfire (has no immunity spells anymore but just "counters" with inspirations or Suppress Affliction).

 

 

The funny thing about this sentence is the "One reason".

 

Because PoE1's priest indeed had several reasons to be the strongest class ^^

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Sure. Others are the very strong buffs and the awesome nukes. :)

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This is tangential, but just wanted to say that after having a character get dominated and spend all their resources spamming high level abilities on my team, I have utmost respect for the Dominated ->Charmed gulf. 

I don't think there's anything else enemies can do to you that actually drains your resources. Plus, you have to deal with potentially getting nuked.

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Resistances are alright, but I think adding a fourth-tier Affliction like Petrify for the other attributes is worth looking at. Resistances are fairly common, so allowing both players and NPCs to circumvent Resistances through high-level or specialized abilities might even out encounters where Reaistances would otherwise mitigate the ability to rely on a certain type of Affliction.

 

On a related note, I think Immunities are too powerful, and doubly so for the Mind Immunity and Body Immunity effects. With the right immunity, you can thoughtlessly trivialize otherwise cool and engaging encounters, without ever needing to engage with other systems (personally I find that intentionally blinding a party to prevent being charmed by fampyrs is way more fun than buffing everyone with Captain’s Banquets, Wael’s Winds, or Luminous Lobsters). In my opinion, immunities should probably only be granted by rare gear, or temporarily through high-level abilities, but that’s something probably better reserved for consideration for a future Pillars game.

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On a related note, I think Immunities are too powerful, and doubly so for the Mind Immunity and Body Immunity effects. With the right immunity, you can thoughtlessly trivialize otherwise cool and engaging encounters, without ever needing to engage with other systems (personally I find that intentionally blinding a party to prevent being charmed by fampyrs is way more fun than buffing everyone with Captain’s Banquets, Wael’s Winds, or Luminous Lobsters). In my opinion, immunities should probably only be granted by rare gear, or temporarily through high-level abilities, but that’s something probably better reserved for consideration for a future Pillars game.

Yeah, I think that's fair criticism.  Giving players access to Immunities via food (which costs only $ and time spent farming merchants) gives players too easy an out for areas that are supposed to be apex challenges.  OK, they have to forego other resting bonuses to use them, but that's still a no-brainer decision once you have even a little bit of knowledge about the foes you'll face. 

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Resistances are alright, but I think adding a fourth-tier Affliction like Petrify for the other attributes is worth looking at. Resistances are fairly common, so allowing both players and NPCs to circumvent Resistances through high-level or specialized abilities might even out encounters where Reaistances would otherwise mitigate the ability to rely on a certain type of Affliction.

i think not giving an out for these kinds of fights is the right move, actually. petrify is already exploitable in boss/megaboss fights where they merely have dexterity resistance as opposed to dexterity immunity. maybe for the non-hard CC options.

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Generally speaking I really love that aspect of the game. The idea of creating a somewhat standardized tier system of debuffs relating to a certain attribute, being countered by a buff targeting that same attribute is just genius. So much more original and immersive than "spell x stuns/immobilizes/whatever for x seconds". It is rather easy to understand and yet offers just the right amount of depth.

 

However, I do agree that resistences are too easily obtained through items. Being resistant to lets say stuns because you are a certain race should be a distinct perk, allowing you to maybe create a certain strategy around it (like a charmed-immune paladin who can clear those effects from others, ...).

 

What I would love to see in future installments is the exact same system, but without easily obtainably resistences through items as suggested by OP, but instead with more reliable and maybe spread out (t3 might inspiration on priest, t3 dex on chanter, t3 int on pala, t3con on druid ...) counterplay options. Maybe those inpirations could be tiered aswell - basically being the same spell, but functioning a little like spell shaping - increasing cost (zeal, chants ...) for a higher tier inspiration (which you get access to at a certain level - with the powerful aoe inspiration maybe being only accessable for single class).

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Posted (edited)

I would have liked to experiment that afflictions get upgraded on crit and downgraded on graze. And in case it's only a tier-1 affliction to begin with: lower the duration by 50% on graze (as is) and in case of a crit with a tier-3 affliction do duration *1.5 *1.25 (as is).

Can't say if this is any better as the current system - but I would have liked to test this in the open beta. One point of criticism towards PoE was the power of hard CC on graze. If instead catching a stun for 10 secs instead of 20 secs on a graze would have turned into a daze for 20 secs... maybe that would have been better?

High defenses == build-in resistance then (kind of). No need for an additional resistance mechanic. Just give races/abilites +20 defense or -20 defense against certain afflictions and so on.

 

Edit: wrong crit duration

Edited by Boeroer
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Posted (edited)

At the same time, in PoE1 you didn't have as many options to deal with CC as we do now in PoE2 with the inspiration/affliction system, so i can understand it was frustrating.

Now not only are afflictions a bit weaker (confusion being irrelevant now, but terrified is good so it kinda balances out), but we also have resistances and a way to dispel with inspirations... Resulting in CC not really being a concern anymore.

 

I think "forcing" players to deal with afflictions at higher difficulties would make gameplay more interesting. I don't think it can be done with current PoE2 (due to the amount of resistance items available), but hopefully PoE3 will !

 

It felt like they tried to do that more in the DLCs, a fight that comes to mind is the long lasting alchemy researchs defense vs the poison nagas on SSS (reduce healing on your party + everyone takes raw damage every few second), but even then it was very manageable without any Con buff or poison removal.

 

It's hard to balance properly tho, for exemple a game like Pathfinder has an extreme approach to it, either you have "The Key Answer" for an encounter and you can beat it, or you don't and you lose miserably... Which i don't think is a good approach either.

 

You have to find a middle ground where the encounter challenges you with aspects you can interact with in multiple fashions, which i think PoE2 affliction/inspiration system does pretty well, it's a good fundation at least, unfortunately we don't really have to use it :/ 

Edited by anishar

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I would have liked to experiment that afflictions get upgraded on crit and downgraded on graze. And in case it's only a tier-1 affliction to begin with: lower the duration by 50% on graze (as is) and in case of a crit with a tier-3 affliction do duration *1.5 (as is).

 

Can't say if this is any better as the current system - but I would have liked to test this in the open beta. One point of criticism towards PoE was the power of hard CC on graze. If instead catching a stun for 10 secs instead of 20 secs on a graze would have turned into a daze for 20 secs... maybe that would have been better?

 

High defenses == build-in resistance then (kind of). No need for an additional resistance mechanic. Just give races/abilites +20 defense or -20 defense against certain afflictions and so on.

 

Actually a great idea. It would make the crit-system abit more complicated (currently its just duration and damage, no matter the spell), but might be worth it considering the increased depth in regards to defensive values/stats. I would still leave the counter/inspiration mechanics as is.

 

It would also solve a few problems with the turn-based mode, where for most CC-Spells it doesnt matter at all whether you roll a 1 or a 150 (after calculations ofc).

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