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Wanted to talk Hierophant.


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14 replies to this topic

#1
Counterfly

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I am making a Cipher (Psion)/Wizard (Blood Mage) Moon Godlike build.

They seem to me to synergize well.

Has anyone been playing this build?  If so, what are your thoughts?



#2
asnjas

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Blood mages and psions dont go well together. One is physical the other is mental. Its like a stealthy rogue thats also a brutish barbarian maniac.

#3
Counterfly

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Gotcha.  I guess I was just looking at gaining focus passively would go well with being able to cast wizard spells and then having cipher casts as a bonus to wizard spells.



#4
Boeroer

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Blood mages and psions dont go well together. One is physical the other is mental. Its like a stealthy rogue thats also a brutish barbarian maniac.


I'm still meditating over the sense of that statement... ;)

But I agree that the synergy is somewhat limited in my opinion. Ascended + Blood Mage has more of that I suppose (Wall of Draining + Ascension for example).

Good thing though: self damage (like from Blood Sacrifice) doesn't stop the Psion's focus generation.

#5
hansvedic

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Also, what about the Blood Mage's drop to defenses and Psion's loss of focus generation when hit?

I would think that a different subclass of Wizard, even no subclass, would be a bit better because of that.

 

EDIT: While the Wizard side would be constrained in the early game without Blood Mage's spell-gaining ability, late game you'd have more than enough spells to finish most encounters.

 

EDIT2: Not to mention that a non-blood mage can empower a spell, such as Disintegrate, or can get back Wizard casts.


Edited by hansvedic, 15 March 2019 - 04:34 AM.


#6
Ophiuchus

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You may want to consider going Beguiler instead of Psion for such a build: a semi-recent update gave it ludicrous Focus generation and its drawbacks, imho, are easier to manage than not getting hit.



#7
AeonsLegend

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Wanted to play one, but the name is putting me off.

 

Google:

hierophant
/ˈhʌɪ(ə)rə(ʊ)fant/
noun
    a person, especially a priest, who interprets sacred mysteries or esoteric principles.
 
Wikipedia:
A hierophant (Ancient Greek: ἱεροφάντης) is a person who brings religious congregants into the presence of that which is deemed holy.[1] The word comes from ancient Greece, where it was constructed from the combination of ta hiera, "the holy", and phainein, "to show". In Attica it was the title of the chief priest at the Eleusinian Mysteries. A hierophant is an interpreter of sacred mysteries and arcane principles.
 
Don't know what any of that has to do with a Cipher. Sounds like this would be a combo of Wizard/Priest. Wizard/Cipher should be Mystic. It's like someone mixed them up.

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#8
thelee

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Wanted to play one, but the name is putting me off.
 
Google:
hierophant
/ˈhʌɪ(ə)rə(ʊ)fant/
noun
    a person, especially a priest, who interprets sacred mysteries or esoteric principles.
 
Wikipedia:
A hierophant (Ancient Greek: ἱεροφάντης) is a person who brings religious congregants into the presence of that which is deemed holy.[1] The word comes from ancient Greece, where it was constructed from the combination of ta hiera, "the holy", and phainein, "to show". In Attica it was the title of the chief priest at the Eleusinian Mysteries. A hierophant is an interpreter of sacred mysteries and arcane principles.
 
Don't know what any of that has to do with a Cipher. Sounds like this would be a combo of Wizard/Priest. Wizard/Cipher should be Mystic. It's like someone mixed them up.

 
lolol, when i first opened up this thread--despite the fact that i've rolled pretty much every variation of a priest--I was immediately like "oh yeah, a cipher/priest multiclass, i've done that" before reading closer and remembering that that multiclass is a "mystic." totally agree that the names should be switched. (my prior experience in a game with "heirophants" is in Diablo 2 and those are definitely priest-types).
 

Blood mages and psions dont go well together. One is physical the other is mental. Its like a stealthy rogue thats also a brutish barbarian maniac.

this phrase does not compute.
 

 

 

psion + blood mage sounds fine in theory (i haven't tried this myself), so long as you test blood sacrifice beforehand and verify that it doesn't interrupt psion's focus generation (also verify that deletrious alacrity of motion does not interrupt focus generation). It's pretty easy to not get hit (relatively speaking) at range, and a blood mage has spells that help you avoid getting hit even more (illusion magic, extra stride and engagement immunity from deleterious alacrity of motion, and even if deleterious alacrity of motion interrupts focus gen, fleet feet can work as well). in fact, i honestly think it would work better for a "caster angle" than some of the other stuff people are proposing here; in my experience, caster + cipher has real action economy issues because you need to be attacking to generate focus, you basically have to end up being a more martial build. for going down the caster path, a psion has no such action economy issues due to their autofocus regen, even if you aren't great at avoiding getting hit.

 

also their extra focus power is pretty decent I think. Even though it has a party-unfriendly push effect, it interrupts on graze and with decent power levels you basically have enough focus gen to spam it over and over. can even be used to help you avoid danger if it manages to push you away from a creature that has gotten into melee range. (though the party-unfriendliness does mean it's hard to use it on an enemy you are surrounding/focusing down)


Edited by thelee, 15 March 2019 - 12:33 PM.

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#9
Ophiuchus

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IIRC, Psion's Focus regeneration works like Dance of Death in that it cancels on a graze/hit/crit roll so DAOM and the like should work with it.

Late Edit: I meant to type more earlier but had to put out a fire.

 

I agree with thelee that Psion would help bridge the action economy gap; and its downsides could be negated with proper positioning and Wizard buffs. However, I think Beguiler should still be considered with its superb on-demand Focus generation through Afflictions and Deception powers: you can quickly generate Focus from Stealth using a cheap AoE Power like Phantom Foes, Mental Binding, or Secret Horrors; Mind Plague bounces, which means it generates Focus during its own Recovery. As a result, I feel Beguiler would be able to access higher level Powers faster. (Also, I think Draining Whip modifies the Beguiler Focus gain while Psion doesn't have access to it.)

However, Beguiler's Focus generation is contingent on the number of enemies and being able to regularly land Afflictions, which can be challenging against bosses, FS encounters, and situations where you can't set up Stealth. Since a Beguiler relies on Deceptions, its locked into using them whereas a Psion could utilize a wider range of Powers.

When it comes to multiclassing with Blood Mage, Beguiler could be a utility king with Afflictions on the Cipher side and non-Affliction stuff from the Wizard (Miasma, Slicken, Expose Vulnerabilities, etc.). I think Psion would be well suited for a character that wants more "tricks" (Combusting Wounds and Mind Blades; Pull of Eora and Silent Scream; Echoing Shield followed by Slicken).

Most of this is on paper of course, but this thread is intriguing. Awkward name aside, I'd like to give Hierophant a whirl.


Edited by Ophiuchus, 15 March 2019 - 05:46 PM.

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#10
Boeroer

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As I wrote earlier self damage does not stop focus generation for the Psion.

Only damage that goes through attack resolution does.

#11
Verde

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Even still is the Psion worth it? Genuine question, I haven't seen much about it.

#12
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No, idea, didn't try it yet. I despise the "stops focus generation on graze/hit/crit" aspect of it while the focus generation isn't too strong to begin with. You needone minute to cast one Amplified Wave. A Beguiler can refill focus completely by casting one Phantom Foes onto a crowd.

Not very balanced. :(

Edited by Boeroer, 16 March 2019 - 04:09 AM.


#13
thelee

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No, idea, didn't try it yet. I despise the "stops focus generation on graze/hit/crit" aspect of it while the focus generation isn't too strong to begin with. You needone minute to cast one Amplified Wave. A Beguiler can refill focus completely by casting one Phantom Foes onto a crowd.

Not very balanced. :(

 

...the focus generation scales with cipher power level. "In 4.0 you get access to the psion, who gives up the normal focus generation mechanics of the cipher's Soul Whip (including the extra damage) for an effect that constantly generates 1 focus per second per odd PL (so 1 focus/sec at PL1, a natural cap of 5 focus/sec at PL9, and even more with PL buffs)." https://gamefaqs.gam...qs/76599/cipher

 

you can regenerate enough focus to cast an amplified wave in as little as 10 seconds with single class psion and a bonus +1 PL.

 

a semi-optimized melee cipher without PEN issues will still outperform a psion, but a psion isn't that far behind.


Edited by thelee, 16 March 2019 - 07:02 PM.

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#14
Boeroer

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Ach! Thanks for the correction. That does totally make sense. :Oops:

Still 10 secs for 60 focus at PL 10(!) is not great to begin with as you said (still behind). It's its own balanced focus generation variant that is maybe even weaker than the focus generation of any half-baked cipher build at PL 9. Don't forget that a normal cipher will not only generate focus but also deal damage. The more dmg. the more focus. Win-win kind of.

The Psion can do something else than dealing weapon damage and still gets focus (at mediocre rate). But that itself isn't necessarily better. Or is it? Maybe I miss something.

So - the focus generation variant is not better in itself. Why then slapping that very punishing "stop on graze/hit/graze" onto it? To prevent tanks with no weapon dmg output from getting focus? Why? Are they stronger than a Psion/Caster who sits in the backline?

Was it done because of the special ability of the psion? To balance that out?

I don't get the reasoning.

#15
thelee

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Still 10 secs for 60 focus at PL 10(!) is not great to begin with as you said (still behind). It's its own balanced focus generation variant that is maybe even weaker than the focus generation of any half-baked cipher build at PL 9. Don't forget that a normal cipher will not only generate focus but also deal damage. The more dmg. the more focus. Win-win kind of.

The Psion can do something else than dealing weapon damage and still gets focus (at mediocre rate). But that itself isn't necessarily better. Or is it? Maybe I miss something.

 

this is why I argue that the psion works well for a caster angle. Granted, I haven't rolled many ciphers in Deadfire, but the need to attack with weapons to generate focus automatically pushes you to martial-oriented builds and in a bad multiclass setup gives you huge action economy constraints (personally I abandoned an early attempt at a mystic because it felt real clunky and slow; I ended up with skaen thanks to their fast free abilities and decent spiritual weapon but it still felt a bit clunky--after that I decided that basically only a wael or self-buff-type wizard caster would be able to do particularly well with a cipher because otherwise cast times are just a huge opportunity cost for the cipher part).

 

If you want to go more of a "pure caster" approach, then generating 28 focus (at PL7) while casting a 7s total-action-plus-recovery spell is an extremely good alternative to generating 0, and then having to spend time to do 37 weapon damage (with draining whip, no ascendant) to accomplish the same. yeah, i mean, you're not completely wasting time (you do the weapon damage) but if you want to be tossing powers around instead, it is a waste of time. also, if you're in a situation with poor PEN (e.g. ironclad constructs, dorudugan, or you foolishly only have pistols against risen) the psion gets a huge advantage over any other cipher (though decent metagaming or playing on a lower difficulty mitigates this, obviously).

 

I suspect the "stop on hit/miss/graze" is just to reinforce that this psion is intended to be at range. they didn't want the psion to--as you suggest--be a low DPS tanky type. i don't think there's any real good gameplay balancing reason, just "flavor".


Edited by thelee, 18 March 2019 - 07:37 AM.





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