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Anyone wants a longer KnockDawn and/or Full Attack Backstab?


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10 replies to this topic

#1
Phenomenum

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I mean, i can make it easily. Just think about new duration: vanilla game KD duration is 1 sec., so 3 or 4 sec. (1 round in TB) seems long enough to me.

Also a Slicken spell pulse rate will be 1 per 6 sec. instead of 1 per 3 sec., to prevent locking enemies.

What do you think?

 

About Backstab: I can set a specified time (in seconds) - whithin those time period all attacks will be gain +100% bonus from Backstab. Currently i tested 3 seconds linger - with Dexterity 15 i can land two strikes with fast DW weapons, medium DW weapons and DW pistols; Twohads weapons can hit only once.

 

Suggestions? Anyone needs this, after all?


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#2
MaxQuest

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Tbh, yes, I would like a longer prone. But not 3-4s, because that would be too much. As it's not only about Slicken. There is also Amplified Wave spam while ascended, and perhaps some other stuff too.
Personally I would prefer a 2s prone duration. And Slicken interval set to 4.5s.

Regarding Backstab: iirc I was suggesting a similar thing. I.e. having a small time window when the weapon attacks do get the backstab bonus.
I think 0.9s linger is enough (with the -85% recovery bonus while stealthed). This way you backstab with both light weapons for sure. But if you want to backstab with two heavy weapons (especially pistols), you will have to work for it and increase your DEX/action speed.

#3
Phenomenum

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"I think 0.9s linger is enough" - ups, no ;(

There is 2 sec. Stealth linger set by default, but first test showed that isn't enough even for fast weapons (i don't know why, maybe some problems with stealth recovery bonus don't applies correctly). I will do another tests tomorrow, but currently 3 sec. working almost fine. I will reduce duration by 0.2 sec. step and test each variant.

 

RWbf5rh.pngYour suggestions was noted, little watcher."


Edited by Phenomenum, 04 February 2019 - 10:50 AM.


#4
Phenomenum

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Also Spell Shaping area & PL modifiers can be adjusted. Waiting for suggestions.



#5
MaxQuest

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but first test showed that isn't enough even for fast weapons (i don't know why, maybe some problems with stealth recovery bonus don't applies correctly

Perhaps.

Because math shows us that is should.
A dagger has 0.5s attack time and 3.0s recovery time.
A rogue with 15 DEX dual-wielding daggers with TWS, while in stealth should have:

attack_time: 0.43s

recovery effects: -85% rec time (stealth), -30% rec time (dw), -15% rec time (TWS), +15% action speed (from 15 DEX)
step_sum = 5.66 + 0.42 + 0.17 + 0.15 = 6.4
rec_coef = 7.4 =>

recovery_time = 3.0/7.4 = 0.40s

P.S. I'm curious what will your tests show at 1.2 and 1.3 window thresholds.
 

Also Spell Shaping area & PL modifiers can be adjusted. Waiting for suggestions.

Personally I was suggesting to change them from from +1/-5 to +2/-4 or at least +2/-5.

You can read more about it: here

Edited by MaxQuest, 05 February 2019 - 03:38 AM.

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#6
Boeroer

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To be honest I think that linger stuff on Backstab is unneccessary. The "real" perfect weapon for a Backstab is a dagger or a stiletto - single handed. Usually you'd grab/hold the victim with one hand and then do the "stab". Now, to bring this into Deadfire there would be only one thing that Backstab needs to do: apply a fixed amount of bonus damage that is not percentage-based on the weapon. Basically like Soul Annihilation is. Not +100% dmg bonus but something like +50 (+PL scaling + crit bonus - maybe even with a bonus per remaining Guile) for the first attack. That would give you some motivation to use a small, light, single handed weapon. Or at least it wouldn't gimp yourself to use one of those.

 

THen one could also think about a higher bonus for light (concealable) weapons and lower bonuses for the heavy hitters. Because let's face it: doing a Backstab with an Arquebus at point blank currently is the best way - but it's also the most ridiculous way. 

 

Dual wielding setups need no buff with Backstabbing in my opinion. If you do something like Finishing Blow with Backstab you're good enough I'd say.

 

If you want that go for Vanishing Strikes.


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#7
Phenomenum

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but first test showed that isn't enough even for fast weapons (i don't know why, maybe some problems with stealth recovery bonus don't applies correctly

Perhaps.

Because math shows us that is should.
A dagger has 0.5s attack time and 3.0s recovery time.
A rogue with 15 DEX dual-wielding daggers with TWS, while in stealth should have:

attack_time: 0.43s

recovery effects: -85% rec time (stealth), -30% rec time (dw), -15% rec time (TWS), +15% action speed (from 15 DEX)
step_sum = 5.66 + 0.42 + 0.17 + 0.15 = 6.4
rec_coef = 7.4 =>

recovery_time = 3.0/7.4 = 0.40s

P.S. I'm curious what will your tests show at 1.2 and 1.3 window thresholds.
 

Also Spell Shaping area & PL modifiers can be adjusted. Waiting for suggestions.

Personally I was suggesting to change them from from +1/-5 to +2/-4 or at least +2/-5.

You can read more about it: here

 

 

I do not know( Seems like in certain conditions stealth recovery bonus is not work. I have a few ideas, anyway. But first, i want to specify Stealth attack conditions. Maybe you or Boeroer could explain this...

 

So, the questions of the day is: What stealth conditions game counts for proper Backstab and stealth recovery bonus?

There a 3 steps - no circle, yellow circle, and red circle. When i give an order to attack from full stealth (no circle), but at close distance to enemy circle fills yellow, then red - is this counting as stealth attack? And if i'll give an order to attack, when circle is yellow? And what if i'll give an order to attack, when circle is partially red?

 

About tests: i decided to start with DEX 10 to find an edge when only fast weapons can deal two strikes with Backstab. Then, according your suggestion, if i want to gain benefit from heavy onehanders/pistols i need to be more swift - more DEX an so on. Looks immersive and logical.

 

Regarding Spell Shaping: +2/-4 seems fair enough for me. Good idea!


Edited by Phenomenum, 05 February 2019 - 04:45 AM.


#8
Phenomenum

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To be honest I think that linger stuff on Backstab is unneccessary. The "real" perfect weapon for a Backstab is a dagger or a stiletto - single handed. Usually you'd grab/hold the victim with one hand and then do the "stab". Now, to bring this into Deadfire there would be only one thing that Backstab needs to do: apply a fixed amount of bonus damage that is not percentage-based on the weapon. Basically like Soul Annihilation is. Not +100% dmg bonus but something like +50 (+PL scaling + crit bonus - maybe even with a bonus per remaining Guile) for the first attack. That would give you some motivation to use a small, light, single handed weapon. Or at least it wouldn't gimp yourself to use one of those.

 

THen one could also think about a higher bonus for light (concealable) weapons and lower bonuses for the heavy hitters. Because let's face it: doing a Backstab with an Arquebus at point blank currently is the best way - but it's also the most ridiculous way. 

 

Dual wielding setups need no buff with Backstabbing in my opinion. If you do something like Finishing Blow with Backstab you're good enough I'd say.

 

If you want that go for Vanishing Strikes.

 

1. Thank you for such a detailed post. As usually ;)

 

2. It also immersive and logical, but it presumes two different combat styles - onehaded vs. DW. With fixed bonus we basically get second version of druid's Taste of Hunt. Besides, rogue have a plenty active abilities, which deals PL scaling damage. So i unsure about this... Backstab is very situational in current state, in my book, and you can easily miss - then you gain nothing.

 

When you deal Backstab with an arquebuse, it's a risky choise and i like it - yes, you can deal a decent amount of damage (if you don't miss), but then, during long recovery time you'll be vulnarable to enemy's attack. Seems fair to me.

 

Don't know... i wanted to adjust Backstab to be similar with PoE 1. Call me an oldfag :geek:



#9
MaxQuest

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So, the questions of the day is: What stealth conditions game counts for proper Backstab and stealth recovery bonus?

There a 3 steps - no circle, yellow circle, and red circle. When i give an order to attack from full stealth (no circle), but at close distance to enemy circle fills yellow, then red - is this counting as stealth attack? And if i'll give an order to attack, when circle is yellow? And what if i'll give an order to attack, when circle is partially red?

You are considered in Stealth, while there is: no circle, yellow circle, non-full red circle

Once the red circle is full - you lose the Stealth.

Additionally:
- the rate at which the circle fills up, depends on your stealth and distance to enemy.
- once the circle turned from yellow to red, the enemy will go to investigate, so he will start approaching that spot.
- if he turns around and you get into his vision cone, the circle fills much much faster.


P.S. Actually I like Boeroer's suggestion at the same level as linger.
What does backstab currently provide? +100% to base damage on weapon attack from stealth?
And a dagger has (10-14) * (1 + 0.05 * PL),
While Arquebus has (20-26) * (1 + 0.05 * PL),
And Blunderbuss has 4 * (3-6) * (1 + 0.05 * PL).

So if Backstab was just like a second instance of damage for let's say 18 * (1 + 0.05 * PL) raw or pierce (with high penetration), it would fix:
- the blunderbuss problem (where only the first pellet was benefiting from backstab)
- the dagger vs arquebus problem (where it was better to switch to arquebus for higher bonus).
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#10
Phenomenum

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"Once the red circle is full - you lose the Stealth." - Backstab bonus applied even when you give an order to attack wil full red circle. Tested 30 min ago. Unexpected, yes...

 

Considering unstable situation with Linger, maybe i'll give up and follow Boeroer suggestion. For now, i'll run some further tests.

 

P.S. Knockdawn duration adjustment don't have any problems. Just need to adjust Slicken pulse rate to 4 sec. to preserve 2 sec. vanilla interval between KD's. I'll upload the mod today.


Edited by Phenomenum, 05 February 2019 - 07:19 AM.


#11
Phenomenum

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So, i have done it :dancing:

 

So if Backstab was just like a second instance of damage for let's say 18 * (1 + 0.05 * PL) raw or pierce (with high penetration), it would fix:
- the blunderbuss problem (where only the first pellet was benefiting from backstab)
- the dagger vs arquebus problem (where it was better to switch to arquebus for higher bonus).

 

- Blunderbuss problem solved

- you can choose now: 2 strikes with daggers or one shot with arquebus

 

Started a new topic, becose all my combat tweeks are under one roof since now. https://forums.obsid...-combat-tweaks/


Edited by Phenomenum, 05 February 2019 - 01:53 PM.





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