Penetration Mod

[Phenomenum]

Not sure this is the right place... But whatever - i want to more people try this and share their opinions.

 

After countless sleepless night in thoughts about PENETRATION i've changed my mod. But let's start from far - i want to explain what downsides of vanilla system was fixed.

There is a several scenarios in vanilla that looks...far from perfect (in my opinion, of course).

#1. Balanced scenario, when Attacker's PEN = Defender's AR (which is not often). Attack deals listed damage (good for Attacker), but Defender's armor not working (at this moment you thinking: "What for this armor needed?!") In fact, Armor just protect you from possible Overpenetration bonus damage.

Resolution: I remember PoE 1 system (which was far from perfect anyway), when armor always give some protection. So i've changed PEN=AR Damage - now attack deals only 75% damage (-25% Damage penalty). Even the Light Armor will reduce some damage and protect Defender from attack. Good for Defender, bad for Attacker you say, but...

#2. Attacker's PEN exeeds Defender's AR by 1 or 2 points or whole bunch of points, but less than x2 (13,5 Pen vs 7 AR etc.) In vanilla game Attacker gains nothing and armor still don't give any protection to Defender. Literally, there 2 breakpoints – PEN = AR and PEN = x2 AR – everything between gives nothing to both Defender and Attacker.

Resolution: Since game counts OVERPEN as PEN/AR ratio (which is not perfect but doable), i've added incrementing damage boost with 5% step. In vanilla you never care to change your weapon if PEN exeeds target's AR less than x2. Now you will want to do it to deal maximum damage. And vice versa. This how it looks:

(PEN/AR ratio)
x1.0 = 75% dmg (PEN = AR)
x1.2 = 80% dmg
x1.4 = 85% dmg
x1.6 = 90% dmg
x1.8 = 95% dmg
x2.0 = 100% dmg (PEN = x2 AR)

P.S. Now i running some tests - if all goes fine, i'll upload a new version with more precise damage calculation.

#3 (implies from #2). Bonus Damage from OVERPEN no longer exist. On Obsidian forums people often wondering, what is "Overpenetration" - probably, when your sword drivening through enemy stomach up to the hilt.

So, Attacker will deal full damage only when his PEN exeeds Defender's AR x2 or more. On one side, Attacker will be rewarded for every PEN point, on the other side Defender still receive some protection from armor, which reduces with higher Attacker's Penetration, so EVERY AR & PEN point will be working for both sides in every possible scenarios. Pure and simple.
Overall damage output for all charachers will be slightly reduced, but not drastically.

#4. Vanilla UNDERPEN damage penalties was changed. UNDERPEN 'window' slightly increased: from -1 to -5. When Attacker's PEN less than Defender's AR, Attacker receives additional -10% Damage penalty per point under the target's Armor, Max -75% at 5 points).

But you don't need to stack your AR to +5, becose even with PEN>AR Defender have moderate damage reduction. So overall incoming damage will be less than vanilla.

TOTAL VALUES:

PEN > AR (PEN/AR ratio):
x2.0 = 100% dmg (vanilla: 130%)
x1.8 = -5%    dmg (vanilla: 100%)
x1.6 = -10%  dmg (vanilla: 100%)
x1.4 = -15%  dmg (vanilla: 100%)
x1.2 = -20%  dmg(vanilla: 100%)
x1.0 = -25%  dmg (vanilla: 100%)

PEN < AR
-1 PEN: -35% dmg (vanilla: -25%)
-2 PEN: -45% dmg (vanilla: -50%)
-3 PEN: -55% dmg (vanilla: -75%)
-4 PEN: -65% dmg (vanilla: -75%)
-5 PEN: -75% dmg (vanilla: -75%)

So, this variant of Penetration system have several pros:
Light Armor and Clothing will be useful, even on POtD, and give protection not only from possible OverPen +30% bonus damage
Attacker gains reward for every Penetration point that exeeds Defender's AR
Every AR point for Defender will be rewarded and give additional protection even when Attacker's Pen exeeds AR less than x2
More smooth UnderPenetration damage penalty increment

 

Terminology slightly changed (including Cyclopedia entries and tooltips)
PEN < AR: No Penetration. 25-75% dmg.
PEN ≥ AR (but not x2): Partial Penetration. 75-95% dmg.
PEN = x2 AR: Full Penetration. 100% dmg.

 

https://www.nexusmods.com/pillarsofeternity2/mods/241

Edited January 29, 2019 by Phenomenum

[thelee]

Setting aside my actual thoughts on this kind of rebalancing, concerns I have:

 

1. Did you rebalance raw damage? They always do full damage, which means in your rebalancing where you need to basically overpenetrate to do 100% damage, all sources of raw damage got a buff.

 

2. Did you rebalance weapon modals? With the current numbers, +2 PEN for +50% recovery time is basically only worth it for -5 PEN to -3 PEN, which is much narrower than in vanilla.

[Elric Galad]

Setting aside my actual thoughts on this kind of rebalancing, concerns I have:

 

2. Did you rebalance weapon modals? With the current numbers, +2 PEN for +50% recovery time is basically only worth it for -5 PEN to -3 PEN, which is much narrower than in vanilla.

 

Aren't these modals worth it only between -4 to -2 PEN ? This is exactly the same range unless I miss something...

[thelee]

 

Setting aside my actual thoughts on this kind of rebalancing, concerns I have:

 

2. Did you rebalance weapon modals? With the current numbers, +2 PEN for +50% recovery time is basically only worth it for -5 PEN to -3 PEN, which is much narrower than in vanilla.

 

Aren't these modals worth it only between -4 to -2 PEN ? This is exactly the same range unless I miss something...

 

 

No. In general, the modals are worth it from -4 to -2 (even -3 to -2 for maces), -3 to -1, -2 to 0.

 

In terms of PEN only time they are not worth it, is trying to go from normal to overpenetration, or from -1 to normal.

Edited January 29, 2019 by thelee

[Phenomenum]

Setting aside my actual thoughts on this kind of rebalancing, concerns I have:

 

1. Did you rebalance raw damage? They always do full damage, which means in your rebalancing where you need to basically overpenetrate to do 100% damage, all sources of raw damage got a buff.

 

2. Did you rebalance weapon modals? With the current numbers, +2 PEN for +50% recovery time is basically only worth it for -5 PEN to -3 PEN, which is much narrower than in vanilla.

 

1. Nope and i don't think it needed. For now at least.

 

2. Not yet, but i understand that some tweeking needed. +3 PEN i guess.

[thelee]

2. Not yet, but i understand that some tweeking needed. +3 PEN i guess.

 

 

+3 PEN would probably do it. covers most of the underpen cases, which is probably when you'd want it to be used.

[Elric Galad]

 

 

Setting aside my actual thoughts on this kind of rebalancing, concerns I have:

 

2. Did you rebalance weapon modals? With the current numbers, +2 PEN for +50% recovery time is basically only worth it for -5 PEN to -3 PEN, which is much narrower than in vanilla.

 

Aren't these modals worth it only between -4 to -2 PEN ? This is exactly the same range unless I miss something...

 

 

No. In general, the modals are worth it from -4 to -2 (even -3 to -2 for maces), -3 to -1, -2 to 0.

 

In terms of PEN only time they are not worth it, is trying to go from normal to overpenetration, or from -1 to normal.

 

 

OK, I got it. I misinterpreted your post.

 

I meant they worth it when you are between -4 PEN and -2 PEN compared to AR (so indeed -4 to -2, -3 to -1, -2 to ), and you said with the Mod it is worth when are at -5 PEN from AR.

 

Using modals when are at -1 PEN from AR could be useful too. It won't rise DPS, but it might help your ressource-consuming special attack to be more cost-efficient.

In the case of Dual Wield, Main Hand Modal is always worth it by the way, since there is no recovery (unless you Dual Wield a single weapon type) 

Edited January 29, 2019 by Elric Galad

[Phenomenum]

 

 

Setting aside my actual thoughts on this kind of rebalancing, concerns I have:

 

2. Did you rebalance weapon modals? With the current numbers, +2 PEN for +50% recovery time is basically only worth it for -5 PEN to -3 PEN, which is much narrower than in vanilla.

 

Aren't these modals worth it only between -4 to -2 PEN ? This is exactly the same range unless I miss something...

 

 

No. In general, the modals are worth it from -4 to -2 (even -3 to -2 for maces), -3 to -1, -2 to 0.

 

In terms of PEN only time they are not worth it, is trying to go from 100% to any OVERPEN, or from -1 to anything else.

 

 

With this mod seems they a worth in many more scenarios. For now, it fits good (not fine) with vanilla values. Remember, in vanilla, when you at -5 UnderPen, there was only one option - change weapon

 

I've read a lot of your posts - great job. Hope you try mod and say something after.

Edited January 29, 2019 by Phenomenum

[thelee]

In the case of Dual Wield, Main Hand Modal is always worth it by the way, since there is no recovery (unless you Dual Wield a single weapon type)

you're going to have to explain that to me! say what?

[Phenomenum]

 

In the case of Dual Wield, Main Hand Modal is always worth it by the way, since there is no recovery (unless you Dual Wield a single weapon type)

you're going to have to explain that to me! say what?

 

 

He means activate modal and use DW Full Attack abilities at the cost of total +25% Recovery time, becose in this case Recovery penalty working only for offhand weapon.

Edited January 29, 2019 by Phenomenum

[Phenomenum]

Oh, i had almost forgot: i need to NERF (ha-ha) some statuseffects provided by food and items, which reducing incoming damage - in combination with armor they will grant a little more protection (-40% incoming damage) than i want. Balance shall persist!

[Elric Galad]

2 Cases (EDIT : this post is about Full Attacks)

 

Case 1 :

Main Hand with a weapon with an active +2 PEN / + 50% Rec modal

Offhand with a weapon with an active +2 PEN / + 50% Rec modal

=> Modal give +2 PEN to 2 weapons, +50% Rec on Offhand only (roughly +25% Rec average EDIT : this part is confusing, so I delete).

 

Case 2 : 

Main Hand with a weapon with an active +2 PEN / + 50% Rec modal

Offhand with a weapon without any active +2 PEN / + 50% Rec modal (it shall be a different weapon, sorry Devoted)

=> Modal give +2 PEN to main hand, +0% Rec on Offhand since modal doesn't apply to offhand.

Edited January 30, 2019 by Elric Galad

[Phenomenum]

I've done with testing, everythigs seems work fine. So i've uploaded 2.1 version.

 

More precise damage calculation (10 steps)

Increased PEN bonus of weapons modals (+2 > +3) to better match wider UnderPen 'window'.
Reduced -N% incoming damage effects from food and some items, becose of increased armor protection.

[thelee]

2 Cases :

 

Case 1 :

Main Hand with a weapon with an active +2 PEN / + 50% Rec modal

Offhand with a weapon with an active +2 PEN / + 50% Rec modal

=> Modal give +2 PEN to 2 weapons, +50% Rec on Offhand only (roughly +25% Rec average).

 

Case 2 : 

Main Hand with a weapon with an active +2 PEN / + 50% Rec modal

Offhand with a weapon without any active +2 PEN / + 50% Rec modal (it shall be a different weapon, sorry Devoted)

=> Modal give +2 PEN to main hand, +0% Rec on Offhand since modal doesn't apply to offhand.

 

case 1: i'm not following. are you saying that there's a bug where the +50% recovery penalty is only being applied to the offhand if you have two different modals active? because I surely feel like from my most recent run that this is not the case.

 

as for case 2: the recovery penalty is effectively less, but so is the effective damage bonus, so I don't know what's special about this case.

[Elric Galad]

I'm only speaking about full attacks, which skip main hand recovery.

 

The point for case 2 is that you can apply the modal from main hand without any drawback.

What you do with offhand is another question.

[thelee]

oh ok, i missed that you were still talking about full attacks

[Phenomenum]

Updated to 2.2 https://www.nexusmods.com/pillarsofeternity2/mods/241

 

To compensate reduced overall damage output, Critical Hit damage bonus vere raised to classic value of +50%. Here's explanation:

In vanilla Crit adds 1.5 PEN multiplier & +25% of base damage. When you score a Crit or being Critically Hit it lead to OverPEN in most
cases, so total damage dealt is 30% (from FullPEN) + 25% (from Crit bonus) = 55%. With Crit bonus +50% Attacker deals 100% dmg (from FullPEN) + bonus 50% dmg (from Crit), which less than vanilla only by 5% (neglitable). So overall damage output still the very same and Crits hurts bad.

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Reduced -N% incoming damage effects from food and some items and abilities, becose of increased armor protection:

Assassin subclass penalty: +15% > +20% incoming damage
Rise Food:  -10% > - 5%
Arrak: -15% > -10%
Food Forgetful Night: -20% > -15%
Food_yolk_bowl: -10% > -5%
Food_honey_wine: -15% > -10%
Pet_Grave_Hound: -10% > -5%
Large_Shield_The_Wall_SE_IncomingDamageMultRanged: -50% > -35%
Large_Shield_The_Wall_SE_IncomingDamageMultReflex: -50% > 35%
Death_Runes_SE_EnemyDamageReduction: -15% > -10%
Refusal_SE_EnemyMeleeDamageReduction: -10% > -5%
Defiant_SE_DamageReduction: -15% > -10%
Girded_Flanks_SE_EnemyDamageReduction: -15% > -10%
Fathers_aegis_SE_ReducedDamage: -15% > 10%
At_Blades_Reach_SE_EnemyDamageReduction: -20% > -15%
Pull_Back_SE_EnemyDamageReduction: -25% > -20%
Feigned_Retreat_SE_EnemyDamageReduction: -25% > -20%

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Added optional mod, which slightly rises attribute bonuses/penalties from tiers 1 & 2 Afflictions and Inspirations:
Tier 2 Inspirations: +6 attribute bonus
Tier 3 Inspirations: +7 attribute bonus

Tier 2 Afflictions: -6 attribute penalty
Tier 3 Afflictions: -7 attribute penalty

Paralyzed/Petrified Affliction now have 50% incoming hits to crits (instead of 25% vanilla)
Stunned Affliction Deflection penalty now -15 (instead of -10 vanilla)

This gentle touches makes a bit more strong vanilla effects, which is too soft and oftenly can be unnoticed.

Edited February 1, 2019 by Phenomenum

[protopersona]

Gonna have to play around with these changes, but I like the logic behind them at least.

[thelee]

They all have -0.3 multiplier and in vanilla, due

to double inversion, Crit with firearms could deal less damage than Hit.

Firearms have a -.15 multiplier, no? The window in which firearms did less damage on a crit was like 1.0 and shortly after, before the blunted criticals effect got nerfed.

[Phenomenum]

 

They all have -0.3 multiplier and in vanilla, due

to double inversion, Crit with firearms could deal less damage than Hit.

Firearms have a -.15 multiplier, no? The window in which firearms did less damage on a crit was like 1.0 and shortly after, before the blunted criticals effect got nerfed.

 

 

Just looked now - yeah, 0.85 multiplier, you're right. I should remove this sentence from description

[Phenomenum]

Gonna have to play around with these changes, but I like the logic behind them at least.

 

I'm not totally sure about several "-N% incoming damage" nerfes, so this section is likely will be changed somehow. I'd like to see some cryticism and proposals!

[merkmerk73]

I really, really like what you've done here and I want to save this post.

 

I'm sure you might have some further iterations but it seems like you solved the biggest, glaring problem with the AR vs Pen system - the deadzones.

 

There are massive deadzones in penetration for the player, as well as massive deadzones in armor for the player

 

If you watched Josh Sawyer give the GD conference talk about deadzones in D&D - this was the #1 problem he wanted to get rid of in the stat system, only to re-introduce the same problem in Deadfire!

 

So well done. I think I will try this mod out for my next playthrough.

 

edit: also really love what you've done with the inspirations! Many of them felt very weak, especially some of the T2 and T3 ones which were often kind of hard to come by in the first place! 

 

edit2: May I suggest buffing Crowns for the Faithful to be T2 inspirations as another mod. It was very overpowered in PoE1, arguably, but is laughably weak in Deadfire - a mere T1 inspiration for resolve/perception/int - one of which is negated by a lower level and popular buff (Dire blessing), the other easily replicated by the level 2 Holy Meditation buff - all of these with bigger AOEs!

Edited February 11, 2019 by merkmerk73

[Phenomenum]

Thank you for the kind words)

[Rooksx]

I was initially using the under/overpen scaling version of this mod. Sidebar - I don’t care if it’s realistic or not, it makes sense within the mechanics of the game that you get a bonus for over-pen. Anyway, that version makes overall damage increase. This seemed fine for a while, but I started to get concerned that Maia (as a Scout dual-wielding mortars) was OP due to the damage increase. She was by far the biggest damage dealer in my party, approaching twice the damage of my Watcher Arcane Knight (albeit a Kind Wayfarer).

 

So I transitioned to this version and am really liking it. Maia is still effective, but not overwhelmingly so. I think the +50% Crit damage is really important because it’s frequently the case that crits happen without the Pen doubling AR. With the standard +25% Crit, I suspect overall damage would be too low to overcome multiple sources of healing.

 

Those experiences also illustrate why changes to mechanics don’t equally affect the player and the computer. Enemy mobs aren’t dual-wielding mortars (such a reliable source of AoE damage, which is more important than single target damage), and don’t use healing as effectively as the player. Generally, the player can be expected to make better use of resources and the mechanics than mobs.

[Phenomenum]

@Rooksx

Thank you for such a kind and detailed response. I hope, i fixed at least a few problems of original system.

 

As for this:

Those experiences also illustrate why changes to mechanics don’t equally affect the player and the computer. Enemy mobs aren’t dual-wielding mortars (such a reliable source of AoE damage, which is more important than single target damage), and don’t use healing as effectively as the player. Generally, the player can be expected to make better use of resources and the mechanics than mobs.

 

I tottaly agreed with you. Unfortunally, we won't be seeing a true self-learning neuron network AI in games at lest for nearest decade.

Edited February 27, 2019 by Phenomenum