The turn order is COMPLETELY broken. Needs total overhaul

[theevilyouknow]

Even if you ignore the implications for dexterity and attack speed, which I don’t think you should, you still have the issue of what the current system does to daggers and light armor. It’s nice that initiative is still relevant for casters and Ccbots but I’ve always played a rogue who uses light armor/weapons and high attack rate to pump damage, and now you’re actively punished for doing so. I have no interest in having to wear heavy armor and pumping might to do damage. In any turn based rpg worth mentioning either you can stack speed to attack more often or rogues are balanced around the fact that they wear light armor and use lighter weapons. The current state of turn based is that fast weapons and light armor are strictly worse than the alternatives, which is super disappointing because otherwise I absolutely love the turn based mode.

[Crumbleton]

Ap would be terrible, casters would be crazy or completely obtuse, it would make ap the by far strongest stat in game.

[Rangerpetheaven]

 Is the round system necessary? A combat system based purely on a form of initiative would seem better suited to the current system. Combat starts at zero and then characters take their actions based on who has the lowest initiative. Movement (limited by stride), a free action and a full action per turn                                                                                                                                                                       Actions and movement would all add initiative with recovery penalty acting as a multiplier. The amount added would depend on the distance moved and the action taken so dagger swings would add less initiative than swinging a 2h sword. The character would get his next turn when his initiative is again the lowest.                                                                                                                                    .Interrupts would add initiative to the character hit, delaying their turn.I guess buff/debuff duration is easier to track with rounds and I dont know the technical side but you I'm sure you guys can come with an alternative 

[nemesis205bw]

Ap would be terrible, casters would be crazy or completely obtuse, it would make ap the by far strongest stat in game.

Why? Who said spells would cost the same ap as melee attacks? How is it much stronger than dex in realtime mode?...

[Crumbleton]

That's the thing dex DOESN'T have to be the strongest stat for everything. If it made you go first and gain extra attacks it becomes the #1 stat for everyone who wants to so anything by a long shot.

 

I would do expect spells to have a different ap cost, but now when do they resolve (cast) how much will they cost? You'd be able to get a few attacks off possibly then cast your spell, or if they instantly resolve you can than cast multiple spells potentially a turn.

 

If the game was designed from the ground up with AP in mind it could work, but CRPGS are the video game version of ttrpgs, a round in dnd is 6 seconds you have some basis for this, if you add AP to the game it'll be much harder to impliment and has much worse problems for this game type imo.

 

Now if they increase weapon damage / give martial classes more attacks (they should) you'll find going first to be really good, just right now martial classes don't have the proper cc / damage to make it matter to much imo.

[TheMetaphysician]

I think I'm sympathetic to the criticism that the devaluing of action speed makes light weapons and light armor (and builds based on those) so unattractive as to almost exclude them.

 

I'm just not seeing any easy way for the devs to alter TB mode to change this, without all sorts of unexpected consequences, that would require a more drastic overhaul. (Which I assume they just aren't set up to do or interested in doing, given that they are close to a full release on console).

 

Getting rid of rounds and just going in initiative order would require a few other changes. First, they'd have to change all the durations of everything, from turns to initiative ticks. Second, they'd have to adjust "over time" effects to fire at specific intervals rather than on the character's turn. That's sort of the way spell casts resolve now, so they can do it, but it will massively clutter up the initiative order with all the firings of "over time" effects. Third, they'd have to change dual-wielding from automatic full attacks to alternating attacks, and as mostundesired pointed out, that takes away your agency (you have to attack with your offhand then next time you attack).

 

Perhaps the devaluation of light armor/light weapons is serious enough that these costs are worth it. I don't know. I do think changing to an AP system is a more radical overhaul than they are willing to do -- they would lose the neat conversion from the base RTwP system that they have now.

 

Maybe the devs will come up with a solution! They are the experts on this, after all. I do think this thread has done a good job of presenting the issues to them in such a way that it might help them think through it.

[Elric Galad]

Getting rid of rounds and just going in initiative order would require a few other changes. First, they'd have to change all the durations of everything, from turns to initiative ticks. Second, they'd have to adjust "over time" effects to fire at specific intervals rather than on the character's turn. That's sort of the way spell casts resolve now, so they can do it, but it will massively clutter up the initiative order with all the firings of "over time" effects. Third, they'd have to change dual-wielding from automatic full attacks to alternating attacks, and as mostundesired pointed out, that takes away your agency (you have to attack with your offhand then next time you attack).

 

But what about using the regular cast/recovery durations from the RTwP Mode as a baseline to define initiative between turn ?

The whole game has already been balanced according to these durations...

With a few minor tweaks, it could work.

[theevilyouknow]

That's the thing dex DOESN'T have to be the strongest stat for everything. If it made you go first and gain extra attacks it becomes the #1 stat for everyone who wants to so anything by a long shot.

 

I agree that dex doesn't need to be the best stat for EVERYONE but it should be the best stat for melee rogues and other finesse based martial characters. Even ignoring dexterity, It just doesn't make any sense that the only viable way to build a rogue right now in turn-based is to wear the heaviest armor possible and use slow weapons.

 

 

Now if they increase weapon damage / give martial classes more attacks (they should) you'll find going first to be really good, just right now martial classes don't have the proper cc / damage to make it matter to much imo.

 

This is all well and good but giving you more attacks and damage baseline still doesn't resolve the issue that light armor and light weapons are strictly worse than heavier ones. I think the best solution, as was suggested, is just to remove discrete rounds and have initiative constantly determine turn order. Thus after attacking a faster character would some time get another attack before slower characters get their first. Then round based buffs/defbuffs count actions rather than rounds. This is how most tactical rpgs, like Final Fantasy Tactics and Tactics Ogre, treat it and it just makes sense, making speed have value without being overpowered. Alternatively, you could have break points like with int and debuff duration currently, or you could have something like have +10% attack speed give you +10% chance to have an extra attack. Even if dexterity, light armor, and light weapons aren't the best option, they still need to at least be an option.

[Faray]

I posted this on the steam forums but want to give my feedback here as well:

 

One action per round works in a DnD like system, however this isn’t DnD. A lot of things are based off speed, and initiative isn’t enough to make up for it. What would help the system a lot is to remove rounds, and just have an inactive tracker, and you get an action whenever your initiative comes up. This means faster characters may get extra actions. 

Simple Example. You have an initiative of 3 and a monster has one of 7. 
Round Starts at 0
Initiative 3: You attack
Initiative 6: You attack
Initiative 7: Monster Attacks
Initiative 9: You attack

Of course the system is more complex, your weapon, armor, spells cast will raise initiative and cause you to act later but this is the basic idea. This will make DEX viable again for most classes, make a lot of CC worthwhile, and fix faster weapons and lighter armors.

[books are made of trees]

I think I'm sympathetic to the criticism that the devaluing of action speed makes light weapons and light armor (and builds based on those) so unattractive as to almost exclude them.

 

I'm just not seeing any easy way for the devs to alter TB mode to change this, without all sorts of unexpected consequences, that would require a more drastic overhaul. (Which I assume they just aren't set up to do or interested in doing, given that they are close to a full release on console).

 

Getting rid of rounds and just going in initiative order would require a few other changes. First, they'd have to change all the durations of everything, from turns to initiative ticks. Second, they'd have to adjust "over time" effects to fire at specific intervals rather than on the character's turn. That's sort of the way spell casts resolve now, so they can do it, but it will massively clutter up the initiative order with all the firings of "over time" effects. Third, they'd have to change dual-wielding from automatic full attacks to alternating attacks, and as mostundesired pointed out, that takes away your agency (you have to attack with your offhand then next time you attack).

 

Perhaps the devaluation of light armor/light weapons is serious enough that these costs are worth it. I don't know. I do think changing to an AP system is a more radical overhaul than they are willing to do -- they would lose the neat conversion from the base RTwP system that they have now.

 

Maybe the devs will come up with a solution! They are the experts on this, after all. I do think this thread has done a good job of presenting the issues to them in such a way that it might help them think through it.

maybe you have an encumberance stat which light armor and weapons have low amounts of.

lower it is, higher your chance of executing an extra hit and speed stat could also be contributing to this and would alleviate some of dexterity value issues

though something like this would be a major change to existing system

[Crumbleton]

I posted this on the steam forums but want to give my feedback here as well:

 

One action per round works in a DnD like system, however this isn’t DnD. A lot of things are based off speed, and initiative isn’t enough to make up for it. What would help the system a lot is to remove rounds, and just have an inactive tracker, and you get an action whenever your initiative comes up. This means faster characters may get extra actions.

 

Simple Example. You have an initiative of 3 and a monster has one of 7.

Round Starts at 0

Initiative 3: You attack

Initiative 6: You attack

Initiative 7: Monster Attacks

Initiative 9: You attack

 

Of course the system is more complex, your weapon, armor, spells cast will raise initiative and cause you to act later but this is the basic idea. This will make DEX viable again for most classes, make a lot of CC worthwhile, and fix faster weapons and lighter armors.

Yeah I talked to someone about this, the problem is then you're just playing the base game, there is no real difference you may as well just turn on all the pause options.

 

They should look into adding addition auto attacks for martial classes (maybe give light weapons an additional attack) and look at increasing weapon damage as a whole.

 

Doing "dynamic" initiative is just the base game we already have

[mostundesired]

 

Yeah I talked to someone about this, the problem is then you're just playing the base game, there is no real difference you may as well just turn on all the pause options.

 

They should look into adding addition auto attacks for martial classes (maybe give light weapons an additional attack) and look at increasing weapon damage as a whole.

 

Doing "dynamic" initiative is just the base game we already have

 

 

You keep saying this but I don't understand why this is a bad thing. "It's just deadfire, but turnbased" is exactly what they told us we'd be getting. And besides that, it wouldn't be the same. Changing it to turnbased still makes a huge difference. You have to stand still and wait for enemies to move before you take your (next) turn, you have to anticipate enemies actions rather than respond, you have to commit to an action you take, everything becomes prediction based rather than timing based and you have to rethink synergies and builds with all of that taken into consideration. "It's just the same" is more your complaint than a criticism, and while there's value in your feedback that way, it's not reflective of a problem with "dynamic" turns, it's just your preference. That dex, light weapons, and light armor are inherently worse than other options is a problem.

 

Granted, you can fix that while staying within the limitation of rounds, but by no means is it imperative.

[grasida]

 

I posted this on the steam forums but want to give my feedback here as well:One action per round works in a DnD like system, however this isn’t DnD. A lot of things are based off speed, and initiative isn’t enough to make up for it. What would help the system a lot is to remove rounds, and just have an inactive tracker, and you get an action whenever your initiative comes up. This means faster characters may get extra actions. Simple Example. You have an initiative of 3 and a monster has one of 7. Round Starts at 0Initiative 3: You attackInitiative 6: You attackInitiative 7: Monster AttacksInitiative 9: You attackOf course the system is more complex, your weapon, armor, spells cast will raise initiative and cause you to act later but this is the basic idea. This will make DEX viable again for most classes, make a lot of CC worthwhile, and fix faster weapons and lighter armors.

Yeah I talked to someone about this, the problem is then you're just playing the base game, there is no real difference you may as well just turn on all the pause options.

They should look into adding addition auto attacks for martial classes (maybe give light weapons an additional attack) and look at increasing weapon damage as a whole.

Doing "dynamic" initiative is just the base game we already have

Giving extra attacks just to martial classes is a little silly, since some people might want to play pure casters with a focus on weapons (melee skald, shifter druid, melee wizard are not unreasonable at all). But giving extra attacks to all classes as a function of relative or absolute initiative is also problematic. There are lots of powers that aren’t weapon attacks and aren’t governed by your weapon recovery in RTwP, but also aren’t spells. Where would your proposal leave actions like barbarian shouts, weapon switching, scrolls or explosives? They would become far less desirable compared to just using weapon attacks, since those give extra attacks, and thus more damage. You need some way to determine which actions can be used frequently and which ones should be slow. Then you may as well just go with action points or dynamic turns.

[Crumbleton]

My criticism of moving to dynamic rounds is that it's already available to us. Having a game with different balance that plays like a ttrpg is totally more awesome then "enhanced pause mode" there is really no reason to play it at that point.

 

Action pause = dynamic turns they wouldn't of needed to re balance the system and could of just added a new pause option I'm the menu not an entire new mode. Heck you can pause combat every 2 seconds I'd you feel like it.

 

 

And going to the martial classes point...

 

Yeah I kind of forgot about them in general. I feel like in the talent trees for improved two handed weapons and stuff they could make it so you can get another action with them. Then the classes that have further improvements they could add additional attacks maybe. Right now the action economy is a bit busted which is causing all the problems and I feel like people with no ttrpg don't understand that you can have wizards casting fireballs and have fighters smacking things and make it overall relatively balanced between them on the same turn. If the damage remains on the lower side initiative won't be great and a big problemis the communities mind set of wanting crazy action speed.

 

CRPGS are born from TTRPGS and the reason why action speed is so incredibly powerful in PoE is because you change the action economy which is absolutely incredibly powerful. Anyone who's played 5e can tell you how action surge is so powerful.

 

I think maybe if they added a "bonus action" where you get 1 a turn could help too. You could make the bonus action an extra attack, or you could look at spells like barbarian roar, or low cast time cipher abilities and allow them to be used in addition to some attacks. Keeping some abilities as a full action is definitely warranted since allowing a fireball cast with anything else would be a bit bonkers.

 

They may even need to buff weapon damage a bit but I'm not sure. What they could do if they look into extra attacks in a way would be to give light weapons the property of an extra attack, and heavy weapons lose an attack, they have some options here too.

 

But if you're able to do more in a single turn, initiative is going to be universally stronger and still worthwhile to go for on more people. Anyone who cast already want it at a decent level sp they don't lose a turn, also anyone who wants to give out CC or buffs wants it to go earlier I'm the round too because you lose a round of the debuff if you're the last person to attack.

 

Anyone who had played dnd can tell you if you're entire party attacks first in most situations you're going to have a much easier fight since you can probably remove a threat or two and get out some important abitilies. Right now martial builds outside of alpha strike builds are struggling because the action economy isnt fully built up. If you've tried an ancient druid there sporeman summon is really good in turn based because you are modifying the action economy, same with the ranger imo.

 

It's going to require a different mind set then the base game and most of the comments I read don't understand that or realize this is an actual beta. They revamped a large part of the system to move the game in this direction, I'd they didn't want it to function this way and function as real time with enhanced pause they could of left everything exactly the same. This is clearly trying to make a ttrpg style system so the whole dynamic turn is really a horrible idea because we 100% have that and they didn't need to change stuff to free actions etc in order to do that.

 

Another thing ill say going to light weapons is that in DND they tend to be more versatile so the lesser damage is okay, but in PoE the versatility of being able to climb isn't a thing so they'll need a way to bridge the gap in damage

[hansbricks12]

I actually enjoy the current action economy, and changing the initiative system to one where 3 initiative acts twice as much as 6 just makes it the new best stat to max for pretty much every class. I like that the changes to action speed have shaken up the meta, and would prefer to just balance the current system around rounds.

 

All the problems people are complaining about stem mostly around how action speed was simply swapped with initiative, making previous trade-offs between the most powerful dps stat in the base game and heavy armor or weapon modals unbalanced. These could be brought back into balance with a simple balance pass without revamping the core round-based action economy.

 

Heavy armor could affect more things than initiative, such as movement points or even defensive stats like reflex

 

Weapon modals that increase initiative could be changed to reduce accuracy or weapon damage instead

 

Lighter and faster weapons, when dual-wielded, could waive the -35% damage penalty or have accuracy bonuses that would offset their reduced damage

 

This mode simply needs a balance pass, not a complete overhaul of the round system. Please do not change it into an initiative minimizing minigame.

[Elric Galad]

My criticism of moving to dynamic rounds is that it's already available to us. Having a game with different balance that plays like a ttrpg is totally more awesome then "enhanced pause mode" there is really no reason to play it at that point.

 

Action pause = dynamic turns they wouldn't of needed to re balance the system and could of just added a new pause option I'm the menu not an entire new mode. Heck you can pause combat every 2 seconds I'd you feel like it.

 

I got your opinion, but that's not what everyone think. People see a difference as mostundesired decribed it above.

[DatonKallandor]

There's a simpler way to do this than messing around with action points and stuff, using the current mechanics:

 

Characters with 0 init are the active character. They do an action - the init cost of that action is how much init is where they fall on the init tracker, just as it does now. Now the game reduces everyone's init evenly until any character hits 0 - they do an action....repeat from above. The only difference to the current implementation is there's no discrete round count, letting characters that only do "fast" actions act more often compared to characters that use "slow" actions.

 

This does have a problem of course, I admit - and that's buff/debuff duration tracking. If you base it on the originating characters "turns" you penalize fast characters. If you base it on the recipient characters "turns" you again penalize fast characters if it's a friendly or slow characters if it's an enemy. I'm sure there's a good solution though, and I'm sure the devs or someone else could come up with one.

[DatonKallandor]

I actually enjoy the current action economy, and changing the initiative system to one where 3 initiative acts twice as much as 6 just makes it the new best stat to max for pretty much every class. I like that the changes to action speed have shaken up the meta, and would prefer to just balance the current system around rounds.

 

The thing is the game is already balanced around action speed affecting...action speed. Making this also true in turn based mode isn't going to suddenly make it any more or less overpowered than it is in the real time mode.

 

The same tradeoffs that apply in real time mode would still apply in turn based mode - armor vs speed, might vs dex, fast weapons doing less damage per action and dual wield having an accuracy and damage penalty (which, by the way, needs to be bumped in Turn based mode anyway since single weapon is hilariously bad in a both-weapons-attack-in-one-action and one-action-per-round world).

 

They've got two options - find a way to apply existing balance to turn based mode (fairly easy) requiring minimal rebalancing. Or completely throw all previous balancing work out the window and make a completely new balance from scratch for the entire game for a fixed-rounds 1-action per round turn based mode. One of these is affordable and realistic, the other isn't.

[mostundesired]

The thing is the game is already balanced around action speed affecting...action speed. Making this also true in turn based mode isn't going to suddenly make it any more or less overpowered than it is in the real time mode.

 

The same tradeoffs that apply in real time mode would still apply in turn based mode - armor vs speed, might vs dex, fast weapons doing less damage per action and dual wield having an accuracy and damage penalty (which, by the way, needs to be bumped in Turn based mode anyway since single weapon is hilariously bad in a both-weapons-attack-in-one-action and one-action-per-round world).

 

For argument's sake, we can't forget that there needs to be balancing towards the fact that players can't react to things like the enemy switching targets or trying to sneak over to your backline. If they manage to slip through your plan and do something you don't want them to do, you have to just sit there and take it. Characters with high initiative acting more often than other characters would be more dangerous because of that alone, so it can't be a perfect 1:1 of action speed to initiative.

[TheMetaphysician]

There's a simpler way to do this than messing around with action points and stuff, using the current mechanics:

 

Characters with 0 init are the active character. They do an action - the init cost of that action is how much init is where they fall on the init tracker, just as it does now. Now the game reduces everyone's init evenly until any character hits 0 - they do an action....repeat from above. The only difference to the current implementation is there's no discrete round count, letting characters that only do "fast" actions act more often compared to characters that use "slow" actions.

 

This does have a problem of course, I admit - and that's buff/debuff duration tracking. If you base it on the originating characters "turns" you penalize fast characters. If you base it on the recipient characters "turns" you again penalize fast characters if it's a friendly or slow characters if it's an enemy. I'm sure there's a good solution though, and I'm sure the devs or someone else could come up with one.

 

You'd probably have to give each buff/debuff (including damage/healing over time effects) its own initiative count -- treat it as a character, almost. That would greatly expand the number of things in the turn log, but that's the only way to mimic the real-time behavior.

 

Maybe they could just do that without putting them in the turn order UI.

[hansbricks12]

 

The thing is the game is already balanced around action speed affecting...action speed. Making this also true in turn based mode isn't going to suddenly make it any more or less overpowered than it is in the real time mode.

 

The same tradeoffs that apply in real time mode would still apply in turn based mode - armor vs speed, might vs dex, fast weapons doing less damage per action and dual wield having an accuracy and damage penalty (which, by the way, needs to be bumped in Turn based mode anyway since single weapon is hilariously bad in a both-weapons-attack-in-one-action and one-action-per-round world).

 

For argument's sake, we can't forget that there needs to be balancing towards the fact that players can't react to things like the enemy switching targets or trying to sneak over to your backline. If they manage to slip through your plan and do something you don't want them to do, you have to just sit there and take it. Characters with high initiative acting more often than other characters would be more dangerous because of that alone, so it can't be a perfect 1:1 of action speed to initiative.

 

 

This is a perfect example of how action speed's power gets magnified when you switch from a continuous system to a discreet unit-turn style system. Notice how much easier it is to land spell combo's, area spells and cc? With an ultra low initiative character you not only get more actions, but you can use spells, dmg and cc to deny the enemy their turns and magnify your advantage. You can kill or cc them before they have a chance to do anything to you, before they even defensively buff themselves. Turn-based systems always have the issue that acting first or acting more has a huge power-magnifying effect. Currently going first has its effect mitigated by the fact that encounters have a lot of turns and there are large advantages to ignoring initiative, such as armor, modals, etc.

 

If we go to lower-initiative = more turns, dexterity and action speed will be even MORE dominant than in RTWP. Not only will you get to act more, but you will be able to alpha-strike very effectively. This also has the unfortunate side-effect of incentivizing the player to make combat less interesting by giving the enemy fewer chances to use abilities, to react to the player and DO things. It can make the combat much more repetitive as a result.

 

The rounds mode already seems fairly well balanced except for a few areas where the trade-offs between initiative, damage and defense don't really work anymore, such as light weapons, heavy armor and weapon modals. Some weapons or armor that increased action speed before are now less powerful, that's fine, as there are many more weapons and armor that have become far more useful in this mode with rounds. Changing the rounds system to a dynamic initiative system would actually require another balance pass, as you would have to get the new system into player hands and do another balance pass after that.

Edited January 28, 2019 by hansbricks12

[TheMetaphysician]

 

 

The thing is the game is already balanced around action speed affecting...action speed. Making this also true in turn based mode isn't going to suddenly make it any more or less overpowered than it is in the real time mode.

 

The same tradeoffs that apply in real time mode would still apply in turn based mode - armor vs speed, might vs dex, fast weapons doing less damage per action and dual wield having an accuracy and damage penalty (which, by the way, needs to be bumped in Turn based mode anyway since single weapon is hilariously bad in a both-weapons-attack-in-one-action and one-action-per-round world).

 

For argument's sake, we can't forget that there needs to be balancing towards the fact that players can't react to things like the enemy switching targets or trying to sneak over to your backline. If they manage to slip through your plan and do something you don't want them to do, you have to just sit there and take it. Characters with high initiative acting more often than other characters would be more dangerous because of that alone, so it can't be a perfect 1:1 of action speed to initiative.

 

 

This is a perfect example of how action speed's power gets magnified when you switch from a continuous system to a discreet unit-turn style system. Notice how much easier it is to land spell combo's, area spells and cc? With an ultra low initiative character you not only get more actions, but you can use spells, dmg and cc to deny the enemy their turns and magnify your advantage. You can kill or cc them before they have a chance to do anything to you, before they even defensively buff themselves. Turn-based systems always have the issue that acting first or acting more has a huge power-magnifying effect. Currently going first has its effect mitigated by the fact that encounters have a lot of turns and there are large advantages to ignoring initiative, such as armor, modals, etc.

 

If we go to lower-initiative = more turns, dexterity and action speed will be even MORE dominant than in RTWP. The rounds mode already seems fairly well balanced except for a few areas where the trade-offs between initiative, damage and defense don't really work anymore, such as light weapons, heavy armor and weapon modals. Some weapons or armor that increased action speed before are now less powerful, that's fine, as there are many more weapons and armor that have become far more useful in this mode with rounds.

 

 

That's a fascinating argument.

[DatonKallandor]

I'd 100% disagree on spells being easier to land in turn based - retargeting a spells made them absolutely simple to land. It's also much, much harder to land AoE buffs in turn based mode, because you can't just quickly pull your party together into a clump for the buff and then break them apart again.

 

First-shot advantage was even more of a thing in real time. Have you ever tried running a 5-arquebus party? You could just straight up remove at least 1, probably several, enemies at the very start of any fight and then just switch to other weapons.

[mostundesired]

This is a perfect example of how action speed's power gets magnified when you switch from a continuous system to a discreet unit-turn style system. Notice how much easier it is to land spell combo's, area spells and cc? With an ultra low initiative character you not only get more actions, but you can use spells, dmg and cc to deny the enemy their turns and magnify your advantage. You can kill or cc them before they have a chance to do anything to you, before they even defensively buff themselves. Turn-based systems always have the issue that acting first or acting more has a huge power-magnifying effect. Currently going first has its effect mitigated by the fact that encounters have a lot of turns and there are large advantages to ignoring initiative, such as armor, modals, etc.

 

If we go to lower-initiative = more turns, dexterity and action speed will be even MORE dominant than in RTWP. The rounds mode already seems fairly well balanced except for a few areas where the trade-offs between initiative, damage and defense don't really work anymore, such as light weapons, heavy armor and weapon modals. Some weapons or armor that increased action speed before are now less powerful, that's fine, as there are many more weapons and armor that have become far more useful in this mode with rounds.

 

 

Well, I'm glad you understand the problem, but the point I was actually making was that if it is done that way, it needs to be done carefully. It can still totally be done that way imo. You still have "can kill before they have a chance to do anything to you or even defensively buff themselves" in RtWP, it just works differently and is balanced differently. So if they get rid of rounds and have consistent running initiative, they have to balance it differently. Which is the same problem we have with rounds (can work but needs balancing) but rounds seem to require much more work to... work.

 

Rounds do seem mostly balanced except for one mechanic, but that one mechanic doesn't just buff some builds and nerf others, it nerfs them into the ground. Not to speak in hyberbole. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

[TheMetaphysician]

I feel like I'm learning a lot about game design from this conversation.