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Are the Huana the worst? [spoilers]


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#1
Pus-in-Boots

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I've bothered to finish the Huana questline for an achievement and I must say I've got an impression it is the worst. Even the pirates have more redeeming qualities. The queen is pretencious beyond the threshold of pain (even frickin' Lady Webb didn't show off by speaking in my mind constantly), their social system is disasterous (piles of bodies of members of the lower class beneath the city!!) and I've even got not a small amount of negative rep with them because I strong-armed the prince to FEED HIS PEOPLE! I usually sympathize with the natives but they just don't know what they are doing - backwards and dangerous to themselves and, potentially, to the whole world once they get the access to Ukaizo.

 

EDIT. Also, their glorious art of watershaping is a huge, dragon-soul-exploiting fraud. It speaks volumes about their whole culture, I say.

 

I wonder, does anyone here have similar thoughts about them?


Edited by Pus-in-Boots, 22 December 2018 - 09:04 AM.

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#2
drmonkey

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They have flaws, like all the factions do, but I definitely wouldn't say they're the worst.

 

I don't recall the queen ever using telepathy just to show off. It's to speak to you without alerting anyone else in the room, usually either because she's surrounded by people she doesn't trust or who don't need to know things and occasionally just to express that she's not holding up quite as well as she lets on.

 

The caste system actually seems to work pretty well. The Roparu are guarateed food, even if it's somewhat lacking, which is probably more than most peasants in the rest of Eora can claim. The are designated for starvation in times of famine, but that's going to happen to the lower classes anywhere, the Huana just made it official. They don't have a great lot in life, but compared to the lower classes anywhere, it's not a bad deal. The only place the system breaks down is Neketaka, and that's less out of malice, more a combination of a huge population and the Roparu being out of sight and out of mind in their own section of the city. The prince actually does want to help them, and will do so if presented with a solution, even if it means bending the rules of their traditions or turning a blind eye to smuggling. You only lose reputation if you pressure him into dealing with it without providing a solution to the problem.

 

As for the enslaved dragon, no on other than Mairu had any idea that that was the source of the watershaper's powers.And with the possible exception of freedom loving Aeldys I doubt any of the other faction leaders wouldn't make use of such a setup.


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#3
InsaneCommander

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@drmonkey brings up very good points, but I still don't like them. Not even my Benevolent character will support them.


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#4
uuuhhii

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awful people doing awful thing are the norm

the exception are the ones worth mentioning

between the four faction any argument against supporting huana are simply unreasonable

so it was the only option


Edited by uuuhhii, 22 December 2018 - 09:41 AM.


#5
Pus-in-Boots

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I don't recall the queen ever using telepathy just to show off. It's to speak to you without alerting anyone else in the room, usually either because she's surrounded by people she doesn't trust or who don't need to know things and occasionally just to express that she's not holding up quite as well as she lets on.

 

Even so, during conversations on the rooftop she gave me the vibe of an entitled, spoiled and out-of-touch person. Her abilities aren't that impressive as she apparently thinks.

 

 

The caste system actually seems to work pretty well. The Roparu are guarateed food, even if it's somewhat lacking, which is probably more than most peasants in the rest of Eora can claim. The are designated for starvation in times of famine, but that's going to happen to the lower classes anywhere, the Huana just made it official. They don't have a great lot in life, but compared to the lower classes anywhere, it's not a bad deal. The only place the system breaks down is Neketaka, and that's less out of malice, more a combination of a huge population and the Roparu being out of sight and out of mind in their own section of the city. 

 

This isn't a valid excuse for a government. "The poor? They are so out of sight!" The problem is that their traditions aren't working well at all on the larger scale, like the city of Neketaka. And it should work splendidly should I entrust them with a chance to rebuilt their empire and reclaim Ukaizo. We are talking about uniting the tribes and creating more large cities, I presume.

 

 

The prince actually does want to help them, and will do so if presented with a solution, even if it means bending the rules of their traditions or turning a blind eye to smuggling. You only lose reputation if you pressure him into dealing with it without providing a solution to the problem.

 

It is disgraceful that a "solution" is necessary. It is telling that he would not feed his people on his own. He will only mercifully turn a blind eye on smugglers supplying the poor with food or generously allow Dawnstars to carry out his work for him.

 

 

As for the enslaved dragon, no on other than Mairu had any idea that that was the source of the watershaper's powers.And with the possible exception of freedom loving Aeldys I doubt any of the other faction leaders wouldn't make use of such a setup.

 

This is correct. Although once the truth comes to light, the queen refuses to stop using the dragon essence for fuel and gets moody if you decide agaist it.


Edited by Pus-in-Boots, 22 December 2018 - 10:10 AM.


#6
Gromnir

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I've bothered to finish the Huana questline for an achievement and I must say I've got an impression it is the worst. Even the pirates have more redeeming qualities. The queen is pretencious beyond the threshold of pain (even frickin' Lady Webb didn't show off by speaking in my mind constantly), their social system is disasterous (piles of bodies of members of the lower class beneath the city!!) and I've even got not a small amount of negative rep with them because I strong-armed the prince to FEED HIS PEOPLE! I usually sympathize with the natives but they just don't know what they are doing - backwards and dangerous to themselves and, potentially, to the whole world once they get the access to Ukaizo.

 

EDIT. Also, their glorious art of watershaping is a huge, dragon-soul-exploiting fraud. It speaks volumes about their whole culture, I say.

 

I wonder, does anyone here have similar thoughts about them?

to answer the question o' the thread in one word:

 

yes.

 

am thinking folks is reflexive sympathetic towards real world indigenous peoples and the various tragedies such folks has faced throughout human history.  huana is benefiting from such reflex.  as have mentioned more than once in other threads, the huana is not a poster child for the plight o' native peoples.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps having been thorough inoculated 'gainst colonial guilt as a child and young adult, am able to view the huana as the diseased and corrupt pastiche they really is. huzzah.


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#7
Triple - A Foxy Lad

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Main concern i have regarding huana is that any great effort to subjugate them potentially sows wind for future whirlwind.

Native identity has decent chance of going underground, hardening then erupting years later in rebellion and sabotage.

is one thing that puts me off siding with rauatai, especially with their oh so exploitable powder stores.

Hmmm, arm the roparu and see what happens imo. Could be a laugh.

#8
Pus-in-Boots

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Hmmm, arm the roparu and see what happens imo. Could be a laugh.

 

Skaen would be proud.  :thumbsup:


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#9
drmonkey

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Even so, during conversations on the rooftop she gave me the vibe of an entitled, spoiled and out-of-touch person. Her abilities aren't that impressive as she apparently thinks.

I never got such a vibe from her or a sense that she finds her powers overly impressive. Agree to disagree there.

 

This isn't a valid excuse for a government. "The poor? They are so out of sight!" The problem is that their traditions aren't working well at all on the larger scale, like the city of Neketaka. And it should work splendidly should I entrust them with a chance to rebuilt their empire and reclaim Ukaizo. We are talking about uniting the tribes and creating more large cities, I presume.

I'm not trying to justify it exactly, but do you really think the poor fair any better in Rautai or the Republics? You're going to find an impoverished underclasss in any sufficiently large society. The Huana trade social mobility, which is likely going to be pretty limited anywhere, in exchange for the underclass being cared for. Which seems to work pretty well outside of Neketaka. It's by no means a great system, but I can't say I find it worse than what the other factions offer.

 

 

 

It is disgraceful that a "solution" is necessary. It is telling that he would not feed his people on his own. He will only mercifully turn a blind eye on smugglers supplying the poor with food or generously allow Dawnstars to carry out his work for him.

Again a solution will be necessary in any society, and the prince actually is willing to try to find one. If the Watcher doesn't find a source of food, either the Dawnstars or smugglers, he doesn't have much to draw on to solve the problem, just swearing that he'll find a solution if it kills him. And take note that if you work with the prince the Roparu's conditions actually do improve. In contrast Rautai just evacuates the Gullett and burns it down, and Vailia doesn't do anything.

 

 

 

This is correct. Although once the truth comes to light, the queen refuses to stop using the dragon essence for fuel and gets moody if you decide agaist it.

Enslaving dragons is bad, no argument here. But again, with the possible exception of Aeldys, all of the faction leaders would be up for exploiting the situation. Castol might wring his hands with guilt, but he'd still go along with it. The others wouldn't even hesitate.

 

The Huana are far from perfect, but their problems aren't unique to them, and they show more concern for their people than the alternatives do.

 

 

 


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#10
Pus-in-Boots

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I'm not trying to justify it exactly, but do you really think the poor fair any better in Rautai or the Republics? You're going to find an impoverished underclasss in any sufficiently large society. The Huana trade social mobility, which is likely going to be pretty limited anywhere, in exchange for the underclass being cared for. Which seems to work pretty well outside of Neketaka. It's by no means a great system, but I can't say I find it worse than what the other factions offer.

 

I would risk a statement that yes, they have it better. They can at least strive for a better social standing (though we know little about Rauatai and Vailian Republics social strata). Can a roparu change his caste? Sorry, chump, maybe in the next life. You must live above a great pile of bodies of less fortunate members of your caste which you didn't choose yourself! Feel free to take anything you find particularly tasty from that refuse pile, bro!

 

 

Again a solution will be necessary in any society, and the prince actually is willing to try to find one. If the Watcher doesn't find a source of food, either the Dawnstars or smugglers, he doesn't have much to draw on to solve the problem, just swearing that he'll find a solution if it kills him. And take note that if you work with the prince the Roparu's conditions actually do improve. In contrast Rautai just evacuates the Gullett and burns it down, and Vailia doesn't do anything.

 

You're missing my point. I condemn the fact that their core beliefs prevent them from treating their subjects fairly. They're refusing to abandon the caste system, even when it creates piles upon piles of bodies. Tradition is more important than lives. They are not willing to seek reforms but the prince rather would have someone else find a loophole which would allow to help roparu without violating the ridiculous caste system.

 

 

Enslaving dragons is bad, no argument here. But again, with the possible exception of Aeldys, all of the faction leaders would be up for exploiting the situation. Castol might wring his hands with guilt, but he'd still go along with it. The others wouldn't even hesitate.

 

I don't care that much about moral implications attached to an act of enslaving a dragon which are ambiguous at best. My point was directed towards a pillar of cultural pride for the Huana. I was accusing them of being frauds not worthy of admiration for their watershaping talents. Their power is not their own. They lost it like they lost Ukaizo. The only thing they cling to culturally is their ugly caste system, with haughty, fanned-by-servants, pet-tigers-possesing queen at the top and piles of bodies of the roparu at the bottom. 


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#11
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Asking who is the worst is correct, because they are all bad:

 

- Huana: the poor suffer everywhere, but the Huana caste system means they are doomed for life.

- Vailians: even in the best scenario (if they stop supporting slavery, etc...) they will still cause problems by destroying Adra pillars*.

- Principi: supporting Aeldys willl definitely not help the Deadfire.

- RDC: ok, if you accept their culture you will be treated as an equal. But the same is valid for part of the Americans in The Man in the High Castle, and that means being an accomplice to what happens to the rest.

 

*Seriously, can't they understand that they are endangering their future incarnations? Maybe they don't care?


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#12
Pus-in-Boots

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Asking who is the worst is correct, because they are all bad:

 

- Huana: the poor suffer everywhere, but the Huana caste system means they are doomed for life.

- Vailians: even in the best scenario (if they stop supporting slavery, etc...) they will still cause problems by destroying Adra pillars*.

- Principi: supporting Aeldys willl definitely not help the Deadfire.

- RDC: ok, if you accept their culture you will be treated as an equal. But the same is valid for part of the Americans in The Man in the High Castle, and that means being an accomplice to what happens to the rest.

 

*Seriously, can't they understand that they are endangering their future incarnations? Maybe they don't care?

 

This is my concern towards the Vailians as well. They embody the bad side of capitalism, with streep mining resources for profit without thinking about future generations. But I consider a possibility that maybe after establishing an academy at Ukaizo and doing high tier research there the animancers would convince the deciding councils that it is unwise to destroy the "pillars of eternity" themselves. Well, probably greed would prevail. Hail Rymrgand!

 

Principii for me were never an option. We're going to sack Ukaizo? Really? My hopes for rebuilding the Wheel for the benefit of the kith just skyrocketed through the roof.

 

So, RDC was my first choice as the least evil. I can stomach a few political assassinations. Mostly because it is somewhat rational, unlike the Huana caste system, Principii's pure hedonism or Vailians' unchecked greed.


Edited by Pus-in-Boots, 22 December 2018 - 12:42 PM.


#13
uuuhhii

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I don't care that much about moral implications attached to an act of enslaving a dragon which are ambiguous at best. My point was directed towards a pillar of cultural pride for the Huana. I was accusing them of being frauds not worthy of admiration for their watershaping talents. Their power is not their own. They lost it like they lost Ukaizo. The only thing they cling to culturally is their ugly caste system, with haughty, fanned-by-servants, pet-tigers-possesing queen at the top and piles of bodies of the roparu at the bottom. 

 

watershap are never their own

it was given by ondra

and they lose it because resist aedyr vailian republics and ruautai are simply impossible no matter how strong the watershaper are

and huana are the only society doesn't have noble designated by blood but caste by soul

even though suspiciously high number of mataru have mataru parent

it was the only advantage of their society despite it's primitive form



#14
uuuhhii

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Asking who is the worst is correct, because they are all bad:

 

- Huana: the poor suffer everywhere, but the Huana caste system means they are doomed for life.

- Vailians: even in the best scenario (if they stop supporting slavery, etc...) they will still cause problems by destroying Adra pillars*.

- Principi: supporting Aeldys willl definitely not help the Deadfire.

- RDC: ok, if you accept their culture you will be treated as an equal. But the same is valid for part of the Americans in The Man in the High Castle, and that means being an accomplice to what happens to the rest.

 

*Seriously, can't they understand that they are endangering their future incarnations? Maybe they don't care?

of cause they don't care about selling souls

it was a miracle if they don't try to sell souls of the poor the moment they figure out how to make animate

and rauatai are still in the "stump over everything in their way" stage of expansion



#15
Triple - A Foxy Lad

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Hmmm, arm the roparu and see what happens imo. Could be a laugh.


Skaen would be proud. :thumbsup:

All my characters are sweethearts but if i were to end up in eora, id totes be a skaenite. I WILL MAKE WOEDICA LOOK LIKE A ****ING ANARCHIST etc.

Prob just as well i was born here.

#16
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I'm not trying to justify it exactly, but do you really think the poor fair any better in Rautai or the Republics? You're going to find an impoverished underclasss in any sufficiently large society. The Huana trade social mobility, which is likely going to be pretty limited anywhere, in exchange for the underclass being cared for. Which seems to work pretty well outside of Neketaka. It's by no means a great system, but I can't say I find it worse than what the other factions offer.

 

I would risk a statement that yes, they have it better. They can at least strive for a better social standing (though we know little about Rauatai and Vailian Republics social strata). Can a roparu change his caste? Sorry, chump, maybe in the next life. You must live above a great pile of bodies of less fortunate members of your caste which you didn't choose yourself! Feel free to take anything you find particularly tasty from that refuse pile, bro!

They can strive for a better social standing. But for most people in Eora (and sadly most parts of the real word), that's just an illusion. And even if they are somehow "responsible" for their social standing (not being intelligent or assertive enough, making mistakes, etc.), do they really deserve their fate? 

At least, in Huana culture, people seriously believe in the responsibility to care for the wellbeing of the lower caste.

 

Obviously, there are very different opinions on which side is the best/worst. But that's just a sign of good storytelling.


Edited by TamTiTam, 22 December 2018 - 01:27 PM.

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#17
Mirandel

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am thinking folks is reflexive sympathetic towards real world indigenous peoples


No more than TS is judgemental from the position of a first world citizen.

 

Huana are far from cute-heroic-mistreated-but-sage-wise nation, but expecting them to be a paragon of a modern SJW and condemn for failing to be the one is equally naive. It's a developing society that just now actually beginning to form a united nation out of numerous tribes. They are learning right now from other nations, old traditions clutch with new visions, and it takes time to sort out which to keep and which to get rid of. As often happens other political players interfere with development since no one needs an another competitor. Pirates sell them to slavery, Valians steel their adra, artifacts and anything not nailed down and guarder, and Rautai are trying to take their lands and skills, turning into lower class rautai. 

 

My Watcher does not support anyone, but only because she is not their assassin for hire. If not for the last quest I would support Huana if only to give the nation a chance to survive.


Edited by Mirandel, 22 December 2018 - 01:37 PM.

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#18
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At least, in Huana culture, people seriously believe in the responsibility to care for the wellbeing of the lower caste.

 

PILES OF BODIES.

 

 

My Watcher does not support anyone, but only because she is not their assassin for hire. If not for the last quest I would support Huana if only to give the nation a chance to survive.

 

 

And what makes you think that the nation is worthy of surviving? Because it is there? I'm far from being a SJW and those bodies in the Old City ruins don't convice me that the Huana can govern themselves on a larger scale than a village. I haven't seen such a collection of cadavers beneath Defiance Bay, for instance.



#19
uuuhhii

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At least, in Huana culture, people seriously believe in the responsibility to care for the wellbeing of the lower caste.

 

PILES OF BODIES.

 

 

My Watcher does not support anyone, but only because she is not their assassin for hire. If not for the last quest I would support Huana if only to give the nation a chance to survive.

 

 

And what makes you think that the nation is worthy of surviving? Because it is there? I'm far from being a SJW and those bodies in the Old City ruins don't convice me that the Huana can govern themselves on a larger scale than a village. I haven't seen such a collection of cadavers beneath Defiance Bay, for instance.

 

of cause they can not govern a city with hundred of thousands population

who ever teach them to do that?

the city are forced to grow from defenceless roparu runaway from slaver and trading company

if three per week are considered many then the atleast a thousand of body in undercity are likely not all exile criminals



#20
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am thinking folks is reflexive sympathetic towards real world indigenous peoples


No more than TS is judgemental from the position of a first world citizen.

 

Huana are far from cute-heroic-mistreated-but-sage-wise nation, but expecting them to be a paragon of a modern SJW and condemn for failing to be the one is equally naive.

am not sure what is "ts," but am recognizing straw man when we see it.  ain't seen anybody suggest huana need be paragon o' a modern sjw to avoid being deemed a failure. surely not Gromnir.  regardless, huana faults has been discussed ad nauseum, so am not feeling need to repeat... though am thinking attributing ownership o' adra and engwithan artifacts to huana simple 'cause they were the the most recent fleas on the dog to stake a claim to territory which is deadfire strikes us as not only first world myopic but a gross oversimplification. furthermore am gonna observe how  victimization is not, in and of itself, an admirable quality.  describe all that has been done to huana by valians, rdc and pirates is not making huana any more deserving o' praise.  

 

is an oldie topic and should be axiomatic that all the factions is flawed-- were the developer's point.  go solo is a swell game option, but utter ignores the issue as to which factions is deserving o' praise or contempt and in what measures.  

 

*shrug*

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps am hoping we weren't marginalized as "a first world citizen."  *chuckle*  funny on multiple levels.


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